Talk:Guangdong Romanization

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NOTE: I created this article because I saw this system used in a few publications but it was not reflected in Wikipedia. Guangdong Romanization is not an official term for these romanizations though (so you won't really find it in Google). Its four romanization schemes are almost always referred to using their Chinese names (ＸＸ話拼音方案), and I chose "Guangdong Romanization" because I did not know what else to call it. In addition, "Guangdong Romanization" was already being used to refer to it in the Teochew (dialect) article so it seemed appropriate. However, if anyone has any better names for it, please feel free suggest them here. --Umofomia 04:07, 21 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Dialects

Hello. I think you have to be careful in using the word dialects. The Chinese names of the systems do not tell whether they are languages or dialects. And it is divided on Wikipedia whether Chinese spoken variants are languages or dialects. — Instantnood 07:58, Mar 21, 2005 (UTC)

Right, I am aware of the controversy, however I had to use some English word in order to translate the word 話. I just chose the word "dialect" because the external links I link to use the term "dialect" as well, even though personally I prefer the term "language." If you can think of a better word, then by all means go ahead and change it. --Umofomia 08:29, 21 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Actually I just went ahead and removed as many of those cases as possible. "Hainan dialect" has been replaced with "Hainanese." "Teochew dialect" and "Hakka language/dialect" have been replaced with just "Teochew" and "Hakka," respectively, since those terms can be used to refer to the languages/dialects themselves. I think it should be okay now. --Umofomia 08:52, 21 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Thanks Umofomia. — Instantnood 11:33, Mar 21, 2005 (UTC)

Also note that in some of the instances, the use of the word "dialect" is correct, since Teochew is a dialect of Min Nan and the Hainan dialect is a dialect of Qiong Wen, even though the status of whether they're dialects of "Chinese" is debated. --Umofomia 08:36, 21 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Right. Guangzhou dialect is considered a dialect of Cantonese, and so on. — Instantnood 11:33, Mar 21, 2005 (UTC)

Tones 7, 8 and 9

Unlike the other Cantonese romanization schemes, Guangdong Romanization chooses to represent the entering (入 ru) tones separately as tones 7, 8, and 9 rather than together with tones 1, 3, and 6.

Is this correct? All sources that I have access to (including the external link [1] at the bottom of the article) say the exact opposite, that the three 入声 are represented by the numerals 1, 3 and 6. —Broccoli 07:07, 21 December 2005 (UTC)

Yes, it's correct. Notice that the external link lists the 7, 8, and 9 for the entering tones (albeit in parentheses). The other reference listed at the bottom, A Concise Cantonese-English Dictionary (简明粤英词典), lists 7, 8, and 9 only, without even mentioning that 1, 3, or 6 can be substituted. —Umofomia 11:24, 6 June 2006 (UTC)

How do you deal with the tone use by most of the Cantonese speakers I have heard when saying 蝴蝶? I hear 蝶 (dip6/6*2) as a second tone sound. There is at least one other /p,t,k/ final I am aware of that is spoken in tone four as well (tennis racquet).208.84.140.10 (talk) 21:49, 18 February 2009 (UTC)

Consonants

I'm a native speaker of Cantonese (I'm from Hong Kong) and I find this section (as well as the relevant section in the Standard Cantonese article) slightly strange:

Unlike the other Cantonese romanziation schemes, Guangdong romanization indicates a difference between the alveolar consonants z, c, s and the alveolo-palatal consonants j, q, x. Standard Cantonese typically does not differentiate these two types of consonants because they are allophones that occur in complementary distributions. However, speech patterns of most Cantonese speakers do utilize both types of consonants and the romanization scheme attempts to reflect this.

• z, c, and s are used before finals beginning with a, e, o, u, ê, and é.
• j, q, and x are used before finals beginning with i and ü.

I pronounce the pair c/q as c before a, e, é, i (the first four rows of your rime table) and q before the others; same with the j/x pair. I never pronounce "s" as alveolo-palatal (it sounds downright wrong to me). —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 129.78.64.106 (talk) 20:12, 30 January 2007 (UTC).

External links modified

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IPA of ig

Should it be /ek/ rather than /ɪk/? Yale romanization of Cantonese, Jyutping and Hong Kong Government Cantonese Romanisation use the former one, while this page use the latter. LoveVanPersie (talk) 17:36, 16 November 2017 (UTC)

@LoveVanPersie: Yes, you should use e instead of ɪ per Help:IPA/Cantonese. Ask @Officer781: for the exact reason, he's the one that prefers e and o to ɪ and ʊ. Mr KEBAB (talk) 20:48, 16 November 2017 (UTC)

I reorganized the Cantonese phonology page to follow Bauer and Benedict (1997) which is also based off Lee and Zee's phonetic measurements (see [2]) (see also Bauer's updated lecture notes [3] which puts the rime under the /e/ column) which shows /ek/. At first I edited the romanization pages to reflect the same, but reverted the romanization pages because one editor did not like the (less popular, but more phonologically correct) transcription. It appears that some other editors have since updated the romanization pages according to the phonology page. Feel free if you want to change this page to /ek/. All I prefer is that the phonology page be (phonologically) accurate.--Officer781 (talk) 17:08, 23 November 2017 (UTC)

@Officer781: It's good to be consistent. Sets of symbols used in X phonology articles and on IPA/X pages should, IMO, be generally the same as used elsewhere. There's rarely need for discrepancies.

The monophthong chart in Cantonese phonology shows that [o] is considerably centralized, [e] less so. If it's accurate, then it's perfectly correct to transcribe them with either [ɪ, ʊ] (which are used for centralized (raised) close-mid vowels in world's languages) or [e, o]. The choice is arbitrary. Mr KEBAB (talk) 02:56, 24 November 2017 (UTC)

@Mr KEBAB: No, the choice is not arbitrary because the two have the same underlying vowel as the combination "ei, ou" which is analysed as /ei, ou/. Analysing them as [ɪ, ʊ] would break that association (we then have to posit allophonic rules that relate the two, while transcribing them identically would not require such rules. If we do posit allophones, then we also have to explain why /ɵ/ doesn't also have two allophones, one in the diphthong and one before stops/nasals - presumably a closer variant).--Officer781 (talk) 11:33, 24 November 2017 (UTC)

@Officer781: I missed that, yes. Thanks for correcting me. Mr KEBAB (talk) 13:03, 24 November 2017 (UTC)

@Mr KEBAB: Well, I was also corrected myself from someone at the Cantonese Wikipedia, so my current knowledge partially comes from him. :) Cheers.--Officer781 (talk) 13:12, 24 November 2017 (UTC)