Talk:Gold certificate (United States)

Current Investment Vehicle

The article, at present, doesn't provide more detail on gold certificates as a current investment vehicle. Perhaps another section is warranted. 66.191.19.68 (talk) 17:07, 10 December 2008 (UTC)

As I understand it, gold investors buy depository receipts (not certificates) backed by bullion in vaults. The receipts can be exchanged for bullion but investors leave their precious yellow on deposit because the weight and purity of bullion in private hands isn't relied on and has to be reverified when sold. The world's largest gold depository is the NY Federal Reserve Bank, which holds roughly 6,331 metric tons on deposit for private owners and foreign governments in addition to 413 of the 8,134 metric tons owned by the United States. For comparison, the gold vaults at Fort Knox hold 4,583 metric tons, West Point 1,682 metric tons, and the Denver Mint 1,364 metric tons, all owned by the United States. The FRB-NY keeps meticulous records to return the exact bar deposited. FRB-NY has handling fees for deposits, withdrawals, and transfers between vaults, but not for storage itself.

The article's topic, the United States Gold Certificate, was issued in dollar denominations redeemable for the dollar value on its face in gold coin, not a specific weight of gold. They ceased to be redeemable and it wasn't lawful for a private citizen to hold gold certificates starting in 1934 after which they were for use only within the US Gov't. In 1964 it became legal for collectors to own and trade the old gold certificates again, but they remained non-redeemable. The present scheme for managing the gold inventory within the US Gov't uses gold certificates in 100,000oz units, a Brobdingnagian unit larger than the $1,000,000 federal reserve notes. $4,222,220 at the $42.2222/oz rate specified in the old statute authorizing them. Roughly $201,300,000 at the friday closing price in NY 2 days before this was written. PolychromePlatypus (talk) 21:32, 18 February 2024 (UTC)

Gold Standard

"When the U.S. was taken off the gold standard in 1933, gold certificates were withdrawn from circulation."

I find this a bit disingenuous. By any meaningful understanding of a "gold standard", the U.S. only abandoned gold as a standard in 1971. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 218.80.234.74 (talk) 02:10, 3 March 2010 (UTC)

I agree, and have edited the article LondonYoung (talk) 16:59, 26 August 2012 (UTC)

Significant amount of Gold Certificates still used?

In this video (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_eExucI3IWs) around the 1:45 mark, a member of the Federal Reserve states that the Fed still holds billions of dollars in Gold Certificates. The gist of the article kind of makes Gold Certificates sound like an obsolete form of currency, but the video makes it seem like tons of these are still held and counted as legal tender, perhaps many as the 1934 series. Maybe this could be added to the page somehow. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.121.105.94 (talk) 17:35, 6 March 2013 (UTC)

The gold certificates owned by the fed are accounting devices that have no legal authorization to be used as hand-to-hand currency, so they are not of interest to currency collectors (such as me). But I agree that if someone is so bold they could mention that devices of this name are still running around as book entries on the balance sheet of both the fed and the treasury ... --LondonYoung (talk) 23:39, 30 March 2013 (UTC)

OK, so I was so bold ... I added the section and links to the authorizing law and the fed document describing the electronic account. The paper certificates are said to have been destroyed in the 1960's, but I have yet to find a reliable source for exactly when ...--LondonYoung (talk) 16:53, 31 March 2013 (UTC)

Huge logical gap needs closing

The article constant refers to certificates redeemable in gold. It never quantifies the amounts of gold that are involved, other than in "dollar" units. But there were at least two "dollar" rates under "gold standard"s and even then the "gold points" had some effect. Since floating currency rates were adopted (1971), the article should also what units appear on modern (bullion bank) gold certificates. In short, precisely what is promised, and how is that promise redeemed?

I'd also like to hear a theory about how the legal tender act affects those promised redemptions. Is the gold certificate a "debt" for which FRNs could be tendered as payment? GJaxon (talk) 02:57, 4 December 2013 (UTC)

Formally, Gold Certificates could be taken to a Treasury branch, and gold coins could be demanded in the same face value dollar amount. The value of the dollar was pinned to the international value of Gold. And the law also pinned the value of silver to that of Gold (20:1). So whenever one or the other became weak relative to the other, this messed with the currency, since the value of the currency did not reflect the value of the physical metal behind it. But to answer your question specifically, from the early 1880's through the early 1930's, that 50 year period in which Gold Certificates were a common circulating currency, the law dictated that Gold was worth $20.64 per ounce, and so $20 Gold Coins contained roughly $20 worth of gold. Whatever other rates may have existed were irrelevant, because the relevant factor was the law pertaining to the use and purpose of the Gold Certificates. 99.7.246.126 (talk) 05:06, 4 June 2014 (UTC)

Globalize

The intro of this article describes the subject in general, but all of the sections are about US Gold Certificates. If gold certificates issued in other countries are notable, they should be added to the article, or else the article should be renamed from "Gold certificate" to "Gold Certificate." -Jordon Kalilich (talk) 04:14, 15 December 2013 (UTC)

I agree. Unless someone objects, it is time to change the name to Gold Certificate and make it clear it is about obsolete U.S. currency --LondonYoung (talk) 19:54, 28 December 2013 (UTC)

I could contribute high res images in a table if we want to go list-format... Gold certificates are particularly tricky (rare) in that most of the early issues (1860's - 1870's) have no survivors (in private or institutional holdings). I could use BEP certified proofs to fill in gaps for a near complete type set. It would take some time, but it would be a pictorial reference with some images never seen before...-Godot13 (talk) 01:18, 29 December 2013 (UTC)

Not a bad idea. Note that even now the text of the article contains a false statement in that the original $100 gold certs did not have blank reverse - and images of it are available! --LondonYoung (talk) 02:39, 29 December 2013 (UTC)

File:US-$1000-GC-1882-Fr.1218g.jpg to appear as POTD

Hello! This is a note to let the editors of this article know that File:US-$1000-GC-1882-Fr.1218g.jpg will be appearing as picture of the day on January 11, 2014. You can view and edit the POTD blurb at Template:POTD/2014-01-11. If this article needs any attention or maintenance, it would be preferable if that could be done before its appearance on the Main Page. Thanks! — Crisco 1492 (talk) 01:42, 1 January 2014 (UTC)

Picture of the day

A Series 1882 $1,000 Gold Certificate, depicting Alexander Hamilton. Born January 11, 1755 (or 1757) in Charlestown, Nevis, and the only non-native member of the Founding Fathers of the United States, Hamilton served as the first United States Secretary of the Treasury.Banknote: Bureau of Engraving and Printing (image courtesy of the Smithsonian Institution)

That't interesting. A very similar note is being auctioned off on Jan. 10 for over $200k ... www.ha.com ... coincidence? --LondonYoung (talk) 19:07, 1 January 2014 (UTC)

Convert to list-format article?

I wanted to see if there would be any objection to converting this article into a list-format article to nominate at FLC. I am almost finished with a similar conversion of Silver Certificate. It would probably take 4-8 weeks of off-line work before importing it. Thanks-Godot13 (talk) 22:21, 17 February 2014 (UTC)

You may want to branch this article into "Gold certificate" for gold certs more generally and "Gold Certificate" to refer to just U.S. gold certs. --LondonYoung (talk) 13:56, 19 February 2014 (UTC)

(sigh) You are probably right... When a table of images is constructed for Gold certificate (United States), half some of the article will disappear as it is simply a description of the notes...-Godot13 (talk) 03:51, 20 February 2014 (UTC)

If there is no objection, I am going to change the title of this article to Gold certificate (United States). I will prepare a very short article on Gold certificates in general, with examples from different countries around the world.--Godot13 (talk) 21:37, 21 March 2014 (UTC)

Modern usage of gold certificates electronic?

Under the "modern use" section, it claims that gold certificates used today are an electronic form of book keeping, but the source used for it makes no mention of it being electronic. Is the editor sure that the $11 billion or so in gold certificates today are electronic and not kept in tangible form? — Preceding unsigned comment added by ChameleonXVX (talk • contribs) 23:37, 20 February 2014 (UTC)

Yes, I am sure, but the fed is vexing me by making their pages hard to link and the wikipedia is vexing me by not letting me link archive.is, in a few days I will figure this out. Until then, see here: http://tfm.fiscal.treasury.gov/v2/p6/c200.html --LondonYoung (talk) 12:31, 21 February 2014 (UTC)OK

OK, all fixed. Looking good? --LondonYoung (talk) 12:52, 21 February 2014 (UTC)

Post Office Fire

Has anyone noticed that other websites say Friday, December 13 of 1935, not December 12 for the post office fire? By the way, I checked the calendar. Friday was the 13th. Can anyone double check the book that is cited? Thanks. Buscus 3 (talk) 22:03, 18 January 2015 (UTC)

File:US-$10000-GC-1934-Fr.2412.jpg to appear as POTD soon

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Picture of the day

A 1934-series gold certificate in the denomination of $10,000. This bill depicts Salmon P. Chase and was signed by Henry Morgenthau, Jr. and W.A. Julian. This denomination was never released to the public and does not exist outside of United States government institutional collections.Banknote: Bureau of Engraving and Printing (image courtesy of the National Numismatic Collection, National Museum of American History)

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Picture of the day

Gold certificates were a United States paper currency between 1863 and 1933. Each certificate gave its title to a corresponding amount of gold coin as established by the Coinage Act of 1834. The Series of 1882, shown here, was the first series to be payable to the bearer; unlike previous issues, anyone could redeem these certificates for the equivalent in gold. Shown here is a $5,000 specimen banknote, depicting James Madison.

Other notes: $20, $50, $100, $500, $1,000, $10,000Banknote: Bureau of Engraving and Printing (image courtesy of the National Numismatic Collection, National Museum of American History)

The article does need some help. The 1863 issues were payable to the bearer (as the images plainly show), while the 1870 issues were payable to order. The 1882 issues were the first intended for general circulation rather than as banking instruments. From 1862 to 1880 gold coinage (and, thus, gold certificates) were valued at a premium to legal tender notes (greenbacks) and so were used only in special circumstances (like paying taxes) where gold was required. --LondonYoung (talk) 14:40, 24 April 2017 (UTC)

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Picture of the day

Gold certificates were a United States paper currency between 1863 and 1933. Each certificate gave its title to a corresponding amount of gold coin as established by the Coinage Act of 1834. The Series of 1882 was the first series to be payable to the bearer; unlike previous issues, anyone could redeem these certificates for the equivalent in gold. Shown here is a $1000 large denomination banknote, depicting Grover Cleveland.Banknote: Bureau of Engraving and Printing (image courtesy of the National Numismatic Collection, National Museum of American History)

Looking for a consensus

Several times I've reverted a change that a user has made, redirecting this page to "Gold as an investment" instead of the original target of "Gold certificate (United States)". I don't want to get into an edit war, but I feel like this is pushing a POV, including the last suggestion to "Compare with silver certificate and silver certificate (United States).)" The issue is that the second link mentioned ("Silver certificate (United States)) is exactly the type of article this originally redirected to. Am I way (or even a little bit) out of line for suggesting it shouldn't have been changed? Almostfm (talk) 11:22, 28 January 2023 (UTC)

The United States isn't the only country which issues gold certificates. They are issued by other governments as well as private financial institutions. There was an attempt to globalise this article (see the section above) and some years after that was failed the page was renamed altogether to reflect its actual scope. The redirect which left behind should naturally be pointing to what's about gold certificates in general regardless of issuers. This certainly isn't something rocket science for average editors or readers to understand. 112.120.39.201 (talk) 08:30, 19 March 2023 (UTC)

"The United States isn't the only country which issues gold certificates." Fine-then the Gold Certificates page should have links to all of the related pages, and not just link to that one.Almostfm (talk) 04:31, 20 March 2023 (UTC)