Talk:Gilles-Éric Séralini

Brother

Why is there this sentence about his brothers illness? How is this even marginal relevant to the person bio? prokaryotes (talk) 12:48, 1 September 2015 (UTC)

read the source. it was important on a few levels. Jytdog (talk) 14:08, 1 September 2015 (UTC)

Yes, republished under peer-review

To say the article 'was not peer-reviewed' when republished in the journal Environmental Sciences Europe, is an absurdity, and shows the writer does not understand science. Those scientists at the Environmental Sciences Europe, are independent peer-reviewers of the peer-reviewed research. They checked it, it was properly conducted. That's peer-review. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Two Wrongs (talk • contribs) 04:48, 13 December 2015 (UTC)

• Not exactly. According to Nature, "ESEU conducted no scientific peer review, he adds, “because this had already been conducted by Food and Chemical Toxicology, and had concluded there had been no fraud nor misrepresentation.” The role of the three reviewers hired by ESEU was to check that there had been no change in the scientific content of the paper, Hollert adds." [1] Everymorning (talk) 14:23, 13 December 2015 (UTC)

Awards

I noticed this content has been added recently. Over at the Seralini affair article, it was decided not to include the source.[2]. The main concern was WP:WEIGHT as the group giving the award was not prominent enough for sufficient weight on Wikipedia and can be considered undue promotion of the subject per WP:BLPFRINGE. Kingofaces43 (talk) 23:44, 14 December 2015 (UTC)

While i agree this honor does not belong on the Seralini Affair article, it belongs in this article, since it it's the persons page. Removing it is very silly way to enforce his own views.The Federation of German Scientists was founded 1959 by Carl Friedrich von Weizsäcker, member of one of the most prominent German families. It doesn't get much more prominent then this. prokaryotes (talk) 23:53, 14 December 2015 (UTC)

The source is used on other pages as well, see for instance here https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Edward_Snowden#German_.22Whistleblower_Prize.22 prokaryotes (talk) 00:34, 15 December 2015 (UTC)

RFC regarding Awards/Honor section

The following discussion is an archived record of a request for comment. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion. A summary of the conclusions reached follows.

Clear consensus to include based on Die Zeit's account of the award. --GRuban (talk) 02:48, 13 February 2016 (UTC)

---

Recently admin JzG (also known under the nickname Guy) (DIF) and editor Kingofaces43 (DIF), removed the mention of Seralini as the recipient of the 2015 German Whistleblower Prize. JzG has concerns with a primary source, which has been addressed, and you can read Kingofaces43 opinion about his removal action in above section. Currently this BLP article includes 2 paragraphs on controversies, the lede as well mentions the Seralini Affair. Therefore the article gives undue weight to related controversies and his critics, when award/honor/recognition are left out. prokaryotes (talk) 01:31, 15 December 2015 (UTC)

• 1. Do you support the inclusion of an award/honor/recognition section?

Do not include Possibly include, if sourced to Zeit Online as below. Undue. As it was included it was also a mini coatrack for the jury's inexpert opinion that Séralini was on to something. If he gets a substantial award, or if there's substantial coverage of an award then things would be different of course. Alexbrn (talk) 07:27, 15 December 2015 (UTC); amended 09:30, 15 December 2015 (UTC)

We have a content dispute and 5 minutes later you post unsupportive on all my recent edits. Now i must ask, what is a substantial award for you? This award goes back until 1999, coverage in print and online media, is used on other WP pages. prokaryotes (talk) 08:24, 15 December 2015 (UTC)

Ordre national de la Légion d'honneur, Nobel Prize etc ... or lesser awards with good coverage. And it seems this award is on "other WP pages" because you're adding it (not that OTHERSTUFF should determine what we do here). Alexbrn (talk) 08:33, 15 December 2015 (UTC)

Again, look at the page of Edward Snowden, which you can read also in above section, and what i was referring to. How hard is it to not read that when you edit here? prokaryotes (talk) 08:38, 15 December 2015 (UTC)

Well for Snowden there is reasonably significant mainstream media coverage of the award, which is why it's due. Here, not. Alexbrn (talk) 08:43, 15 December 2015 (UTC)

• Do not include unless we have reliable independent sources establishing the significance of the awards and the nature and significance of the awarding bodies (which do not appear to me to be notable). Guy (Help!) 08:45, 15 December 2015 (UTC)

• Comment There are now independent sources, from the German main stream media which covered the award discussed here. FAZ, SZ, ZEIT, ARD, SWRprokaryotes (talk) 09:20, 15 December 2015 (UTC)

Excellent. Zeit online is a strong source (the others are more parochial). It could be used to support something like this to be placed in the existing Controversies section,, which also keeps us clean in WP:FRINGE terms:

In 2015 Séralini was awarded the "whistleblower" award by the Federation of German Scientists. Die Zeit noted the irony of this, said that Séralini was not a whistleblower but an "anti-GMO activist who leads a campaign by questionable means", and compared him unfavorably to Edward Snowden, the award's co-recipient, whom Die Zeit thought an example of a genuine whistleblower.

- Alexbrn (talk) 09:29, 15 December 2015 (UTC)

Why do you cherry pick data which only serves your views, i.e. leave out that your quote is in response to the award we discuss here (at least on the article)? Apparently the ARD, is the world's second largest public broadcaster. All these sources linked above add up the majority of Germany's media landscape. prokaryotes (talk) 10:35, 15 December 2015 (UTC)

The Die Zeit piece is utterly damning of Seralini, no need to cherry pick. We must of course avoid any kind of framing that looks like it might lend credence to his discredited research (as unfortunately happened here), per WP:FRINGE. Alexbrn (talk) 10:39, 15 December 2015 (UTC)

His science is so much discredited that several peer-reviewed journals offered to re-published the study you referring to. A circumstance you ignore as well. Per WP:Neutral. prokaryotes (talk) 10:46, 15 December 2015 (UTC)

Thanks, Alex, that is a good source, it establishes the context. Prokaryotes, beware the trap of assuming that anybody who supports your POV must be a saint and anybody who opposes it must be the enemy. Séralini's work is junk, that is unambiguously established. That doesn't make glyphosate good (or bad), it just means that this man's work, for all that it is shouted from the rooftops by anti-GMO activists, is useless in establishing the facts. As Zeit notes, he is not a brave maverick whistleblower, he is an activist who has allowed his agenda to overcome any attempt at objectivity. That is a behaviour that, if discovered, generally wrecks a career. Look at Jacques Benveniste, for example. The canonical example of course is Blondlot's n-rays. Guy (Help!) 11:01, 15 December 2015 (UTC)

Discredit means you refer to the rat species he used, which his critics claim make the conclusions not significant enough (sample size, time frame). However, what you ignore is that Monsanto's own studies use the same species. Also your claim that he is an activist, or his entire work is junk, on a BLP page is rather at odds with Wikipedia guidelines, an admin should know better. Additional you ignore that recent findings by authorities such as ICAR, WHO or even the EFSA overlap with some of his conclusions (probable carcinogenic, or according to EFSA genotoxic when used in co formulations). prokaryotes (talk) 11:08, 15 December 2015 (UTC)

As the Sérlini Affair article makes clear, it goes a lot further than merely the species of rat. And as I have pointed out before, someone can publish fraudulent research and still not be completely wrong. The point is that Séralini's work is worthless in forming any judgment, because it is agenda-driven and because his conclusions are not supported by the data. And that is career suicide for a scientist. And it's not an accident. His subsequent claims about GMOs in all lab animal food somehow skewing the results, that seriously undermines any claim he might have to objectivity. His reputation is, at this point, toast - and I am afraid that however much you might wish it were otherwise, it's not Wikipedia's problem to fix. Guy (Help!) 11:19, 15 December 2015 (UTC)

I suggest to have a closer look on the suporting letter[3], with Brian Wynne first putting his name under it and compare it to the valid claims raised by various French academies against his methods. I doubt that Sérlini is completely toast in the realm he actually plays - thats politics and media. Quote: Governments have become habituated to using science as a political football. (I would add - its the same problem with activists, e.g. in climate change). There are numerous weaknesses of GM regulations, not only in the state of Canada, and those are being ignored by the critics of Sérlini (probably right, but Serlini is the last person, Í would trust to improve that). Quote: The same issues of experimental design and analysis raised (about Seralinis) risk-finding study were not of concern to critics when the studies did not identify risk. The current regulatory protocols approve GMO crops based on little to no useful data upon which to assess safety. That said, GMO regulation is not being based on feeding rats, there is much more behind it, and Seralini plays the political game quite well, including trials to silence critics, a) by libel threats and legal means and b) by direct influence on media during his orchestrated campaigns, which include books, films, press releases, NDAs and globuli quackery as a remedy. That said, he is far from being a scientist or poor victim and whistleblower, he's better being described as a sort of guru in a political game on WTO level. And no, he is not sole against big agrobusiness, he is an important player of team ecogreenagrobusiness with the European commission and various millions of funding supporting him. Polentarion Talk 03:11, 17 December 2015 (UTC)

That letter is pretty bizarre. It alleges, for example, harassment by the Royal Society. It's difficult to see how that could even happen. I suspect this is the usual definition of harassment used by fringe scientists, namely: asking for the data. Guy (Help!) 10:03, 17 December 2015 (UTC)

I take Brian Wynne, the first signatory, quite serious. Polentarion Talk 12:12, 17 December 2015 (UTC)

• Comment: the award itself seems to have enough coverage to merit inclusion, both in online and print media. As for a separate section, it appears excessive for a single award. We can discuss the manner of said inclusion, language in particular, and consider interpretations from differing sources. Let's not let a simple RfC question turn into an off topic discussion. Best, FoCuS contribs; talk to me! 01:36, 29 December 2015 (UTC)

• Include Die Zeit 's account of the award, as suggested by Alexbrn; omit the other sources, which record the award but do not discuss is. As for Prokaryotes's statement "the article gives undue weight to related controversies and his critics": not so. Séralini's deliberately misleading presentation of his work is what he is notable for. Maproom (talk) 08:27, 1 January 2016 (UTC)

Indeed. We get the same kind of thing at Andrew Wakefield (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views). When someone is primarily known for being tenaciously wrong, that's what the article will say. Guy (Help!) 13:48, 1 January 2016 (UTC)

And there's an amusing, but uncontroversial, twist on this at Alan Sokal, a well-respected academic who is notable primarily for his hoax article. Maproom (talk) 12:20, 2 January 2016 (UTC)

• Conditional, but weak include. There should not be a separate awards section as mentioned by Maproom above as this can lead to issues on fringe BLPs and people trying to validate the BLP's point of view. Alexbrn found the best situation where if this content is going to be included at all, it should be according to the Zeit source as outlined in the block quote above. That's the strongest source for the award, and it puts it in proper context from a fringe subject so we aren't running into NPOV issues. Kingofaces43 (talk) 01:48, 9 January 2016 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Notice that DS and 1RR apply to this page

Per the recent Arb case: Genetically modified organisms, all related pages are subject to discretionary sanctions and a strict 1 RR. I noticed that JzG (talk · contribs) has made more than 1 revert in this article today and made numerous reverts to other articles in the topic area today and yesterday. There may have been other editors who crossed that boundary as well - Please follow the restrictions that Arb has put in place for this topic area, or editors could find themselves sanctioned at AE. Thank you, Minor4th 08:35, 15 December 2015 (UTC)

I don't think I have made more than one revert. I'm just cleaning up some stuff that has no reliable independent sourcing, per WP:FRINGE. Guy (Help!) 08:44, 15 December 2015 (UTC)

Whatever your rationale, you have made more than one revert. Just keep in mind that even if your edits are "correct" - you are still subject to 1RR like everyone else. And for the record, I think a revert is removing content from an article. But I will look it up to be sure. Minor4th 08:54, 15 December 2015 (UTC)

No, I don't think you are right. More than one edit, yes, but each edit made only once, as far as I can tell. And I did go back and check. Guy (Help!) 10:55, 15 December 2015 (UTC)

PLOS ONE

We include a link to the 2015 PLOS One study, but no commentary re the correction noting the previously undeclared COI, or the stinging rebuke from Science Media Centre or the comment from EFSA that pplication of the ADI concept to claim the existence of a health risk in rodents or to demonstrate background levels of diseases or disorders in rodents has no scientific justification. That seems to me to be a failure of WP:FRINGE. I have no problem with either excluding this study, or including it with the critical response, but including the study on its own without the commentary that shows it to be junk? Bit of an issue. Guy (Help!) 13:46, 15 December 2015 (UTC)

I'd ditch the list of articles since we're WP:NOT a bibliography, and particularly not a bibliography of dodgy papers. Any articles that have got sound secondary coverage can be described in the narrative text in the context of that sound coverage. Alexbrn (talk) 13:50, 15 December 2015 (UTC)

I am content with that, please feel free to make the edit. Guy (Help!) 14:29, 15 December 2015 (UTC)

I disagree with that edit, since it is not following Wikipedia guidelines, WP:Neutral and per WP:BLP- prokaryotes (talk) 14:37, 15 December 2015 (UTC)

Seems like a good plan. Academic BLPs are not a CV, so we can't go adding the various studies someone was authored unless there is extensive secondary coverage. The means it has to go beyond the standard press releases the author or journal might send out to media and reach some commentary above that threshold. Kingofaces43 (talk) 14:49, 15 December 2015 (UTC)

Kingofaces43, are you suggesting we should extend the article with the related coverage, since there is a lot of coverage of his studies in reliable secondary sources. Sounds like a good plan. prokaryotes (talk) 15:01, 15 December 2015 (UTC)

No, that should be clear at this time from my last comment. Kingofaces43 (talk) 15:04, 15 December 2015 (UTC)

Yet, above you wrote "...unless there is extensive secondary coverage". prokaryotes (talk) 15:07, 15 December 2015 (UTC)

I qualified what extensive secondary coverage is in my post. We currently don't have such coverage relevant to the BLP that wouldn't be a WP:COATRACK for other topics from a weight perspective. Kingofaces43 (talk) 15:22, 15 December 2015 (UTC)

Which study you referring to now, in my search at least the studies published this year yield extensive coverage in reliable secondary sources. prokaryotes (talk) 15:24, 15 December 2015 (UTC)

At this point, please read the context of my replies in the threading. That will answer your questions. Kingofaces43 (talk) 15:28, 15 December 2015 (UTC)

Recent removal of info about Seralini's work by admin JzG

In this edit, the admin JzG (Also known under the name Guy) removed a large chunk of article content, which outlined the studies of scientist Seralini. The admin stated in the edit summary that the removal is related to the studies being primary sources. However, it is common usage to use scientific study papers of a scientist when explaining his work. Therefore the content should be readded to the article about scientist Seralini. prokaryotes (talk) 13:49, 15 December 2015 (UTC)

In general we don't just relay research, we seek secondary commentary to determine weight and provide a reliable basis for citation. But we especially can't just relay discredited science in our article without corrective commentary - that would be a violation of WP:NPOV. Alexbrn (talk) 14:25, 15 December 2015 (UTC)

As I said in the edit summary, and as Alex notes, and as last time we went over exactly the same problem, the reason is that it was all sourced from the WP:PRIMARY source. X wrote a study saying Y, source, X's study saying Y, is just about acceptable for uncontroversial facts, but for controversial or disputed findings we need reliable independent secondary sources, and in fact any use of primary sources is formally deprecated on Wikipedia. Guy (Help!) 14:28, 15 December 2015 (UTC)

Then i suggest you make yourself familiar with WP:BLPSELFPUB. There is also a guide for scholar papers, which i cannot find right away.prokaryotes (talk) 14:50, 15 December 2015 (UTC)

We are not citing his blog or some other self-published source to support a statement of his beliefs on something, we are citing a research paper that purports to support a statement of the research paper's findings. Scientific studies are not supposed to be opinion pieces, though I agree that most of Séralini's work does appear to be based more on opinion than empirically established fact. These are not trivial biographical details, they are questionable papers promoting a fringe view, and we should not include them without reliable independent secondary sources - just as we would not include a contended fact about someone based solely on their own writing. You are, of course, free to propose a specific edit here and see if it achieves consensus. Guy (Help!) 15:42, 15 December 2015 (UTC)

"...they are questionable papers promoting a fringe view" Citation needed. Why do I have the impression that you are not here to improve Wikipedia? prokaryotes (talk) 15:53, 15 December 2015 (UTC)

Living persons may publish material about themselves, such as through press releases or personal websites. Such material may be used as a source only if:

1. it is not unduly self-serving;
2. it does not involve claims about third parties;
3. it does not involve claims about events not directly related to the subject;
4. there is no reasonable doubt as to its authenticity;
5. the article is not based primarily on such sources.

Items 1 and 3 apply. The claims re GMOs are not directly related tot he subject (i.e. this is not biographical detail). WP:UNDUE also applies.

As to why you don't think I'm here to improve Wikipedia, I would suggest you give urgent consideration to the possibility that the issue may be in your definition of what constitutes improvement. Guy (Help!) 15:55, 15 December 2015 (UTC)

You missing the point, the large chunk of material, part of the page for ages, you removed earlier cited his studies to explain the sciences he studies. And why don't you explain your claim that all these studies a fringe, still waiting for that. And how is his work his own publications in reputable journals, not related to his work.....??prokaryotes (talk) 15:59, 15 December 2015 (UTC)

Haven't you noticed that of the opinions above, only you are in favour of all this content? Does that not suggest to you that you should allow for at least the possibility that you are wrong? Me, I am prepared to be proved wrong if someone comes along with credible sources that back Séralini. I don't have any strong opinion on the question of whether glyphosate or GMOs are good or bad, I only have an opinion on the abuse of science to promote a scientifically erroneous belief, and the sources to date make it pretty clear that Séralini is doing exactly that.

You wanted references for these being questionable papers promoting fringe views. The following are adequate to meet the standards of talk page debate, and some are actually citable sources for Wikipedia content.

• http://www.economist.com/blogs/feastandfamine/2013/12/gm-maize-health-and-s-ralini-affair
• http://www.sciencemediacentre.org/expert-reaction-to-study-investigating-content-of-and-contaminants-in-laboratory-rodent-diets/
• https://www.geneticliteracyproject.org/2015/07/02/scientists-react-to-homeopathy-funded-seralini-study-claiming-all-gmo-tests-contaminated/
• http://theness.com/neurologicablog/index.php/seralini-gmo-study-republished/
• http://scienceblogs.com/pharyngula/2013/11/29/belated-retraction-of-seralinis-bad-anti-gmo-paper/
• https://www.sciencebasedmedicine.org/the-seralini-gmo-study-retraction-and-response-to-critics/
• http://www.popsci.com/blog-network/our-modern-plagues/gmos-and-s%C3%A9ralini-redux
• http://www.forbes.com/sites/jonentine/2012/09/30/does-the-seralini-corn-study-fiasco-mark-a-turning-point-in-the-debate-over-gm-food/

I could go on, but all I need to do is to establish sufficient grounds for caution, and that I think is clear enough by now. Guy (Help!) 16:06, 15 December 2015 (UTC)

Then how is it that besides all this fringe you see with Seralini, that the WHO, the CARF, the state California now consider Glyphosate a possible carcinogenic? Somehow Seralini's view that Roundup is creating cancer is echoed by reliable sources. Thus, not at all fringe. Why do you ignore this? prokaryotes (talk) 16:12, 15 December 2015 (UTC)

I don't have any problem with anybody stating that glyphosate is possibly carcinogenic, the issue is with the abuse of that category to assert that it is carcinogenic, which experience indicates is the inevitable result of a listing like that in California. The thing is, being carcinogenic, probably carcinogenic, or possibly carcinogenic, is meaningless in isolation. Alcohol is definitely carcinogenic. Smoking cannabis very likely causes cancer as the smoke contains many of the same compounds as tobacco smoke. Using a mobile phone almost certainly does not cause cancer. Radiotherapy can cure cancer, but may also introduce a risk of other cancers in future. It's all about dose, exposure, route of intake, lifetime exposure and so on. It's not a simple question of does X cause cancer or not. Most of the problem with GMOs generally is people trying to portray complex issues as simple black-and-white ones, IMO. And most of the problem with Séralini is trying to produce evidence to support one of these black-and-white views. Guy (Help!) 16:27, 15 December 2015 (UTC)

So why is it that his critics only focus on his 2012 paper, ignore the recent papers, even though they are accessible online under open access? On the opposite, all the studies which Monsanto conducted are withold under patent laws from the public, but you trust Monsanto more, even knowing that they hire PR dudes to discredit the work of scientist who work with full transparency. Somehow your arguments don't add up JzG. prokaryotes (talk) 16:31, 15 December 2015 (UTC)

Eh? They don't only focus on the 2012 paper. There is extensive commentary about the 2015 paper, for example, especially around its withdrawal and republication with details of substantial conflicts of interest. The 2012 is the most discussed because it was the one that was launched by press release, feted by anti-GMO campaigners, analysed, found wanting, retracted, and republished, again by press release, with quite singular arrangements for review. The 2012 paper is what constitutes the Séralini affair and is what makes Séralini himself notable - it's the sources of the early mainstream commentary on him, but that commentary has not stopped, it's just that "producer of shoddy anti-GMO research publishes another shoddy anti-GMO paper" is not the headline that "anti-GMO paper retracted" is, not least because it's the 2012 paper that was career-limiting, not the subsequent ones. Martin Fleischmann continued to publish after 1989, if I recall correctly. Guy (Help!) 16:39, 15 December 2015 (UTC)

Just 1 point, above you link to the Genetic Literacy Project blog, the page makes a big deal about the funding. Then, what the article doesn't disclose is that some of the authors have worked for Monsanto, ie. Dr. Richard Goodman, which is a huge red flag COI. Also read with emphasis added "...expert opinions from independent researchers", right. prokaryotes (talk) 16:53, 15 December 2015 (UTC)

GLP is one of the articles I linked, and is not one I would propose for Wikipedia content. The issue with the 2015 paper was that a substantial material COI - being funded by a company that sells fraudulent "cures" for the condition the study purports to demonstrate - was not declared. And let's be absolutely clear here: any scientist who takes money from a company that manufactures homeopathy, has almost certainly lost touch with reality. Here's the thing about science: people have, and declare, conflicts of interest, and the results get weighted accordingly, it's only when material conflicts are concealed that you attract seriously unfavourable commentary. Like this, for example. Guy (Help!) 17:32, 15 December 2015 (UTC)

Basic Clean up necessary

Currently, this article is less about the person, but mostly refers to the Séralini affair. The Séralini affair has large bits of content, e.g. Séralini_affair#Previous_S.C3.A9ralini_papers that would fit better here. Séralini has had various roles as a givernment advisor on GMO, starting for the French and most prominent as the advisor (around the 2003ies) for the European commission in the longstanding GMO trade conflict at the WTO level. Thats much more important than any public controversy about his sloppy studies. Polentarion Talk 22:47, 16 December 2015 (UTC)

Your changes are, I think, rather too WP:BOLD. A section on "support" for example gives WP:UNDUE weight to a minority scientific view. Guy (Help!) 23:28, 16 December 2015 (UTC)

Also notice the ad hominems, reads like a character assassination. Fair and balanced...bye bye prokaryotes (talk) 23:31, 16 December 2015 (UTC)

I left out the support. Greenpeace and the commission gave him millions, the French government some orders. Polentarion Talk 23:38, 16 December 2015 (UTC)

There are some serious issues here related to WP:CIR, see WP:NPOV, WP:BLP, and gross grammar problems. prokaryotes (talk) 23:40, 16 December 2015 (UTC)

I just moved content from the affair to the person. I doubt you would have stated that at the affair. Polentarion Talk 23:41, 16 December 2015 (UTC)

This is a very delicate page, and when you intend to do some major overhaul you need to find consensus, discuss changes on the talk page. Basically i think it would be okay to list his studies here, but there are basic issues as i mentioned. prokaryotes (talk) 23:43, 16 December 2015 (UTC)

The funny thing is the role of consensus here compared to climate change. Polentarion Talk 23:47, 16 December 2015 (UTC)

Imagine this page is about you. Would you agree to everything, is it neutral enough? prokaryotes (talk) 00:01, 17 December 2015 (UTC)

Hmmm. Do you have a problem with the content from the affair article? Polentarion Talk 00:08, 17 December 2015 (UTC)

There are several problems, in many instances only opponents of S are mentioned, not the arguments of S. Additional there is commentary from opinion writers compared to scientific studies. And some content is probably not really important enough to add it into an encyclopedia. prokaryotes (talk) 00:15, 17 December 2015 (UTC)

Hmmm. The article had a note asking to translate the more detailed French Article. I did so. The COIs are being described en detail. Just for the record, a variety of academies state a doubtful political campaign, trying to silence scientific debate while getting millions of funding from the large companies and foundations dealing with organic food. Polentarion Talk 00:25, 17 December 2015 (UTC)

Thanks for taking the time to compare the English and French versions, the French sources do seem to have more detail on, for example, conflicts of interest. The link with Sevene Pharma troubles me most: homeopathy is rank pseudoscience and any scientist who takes money from a homeopathic company has probably abandoned any pretence to distinguish reality from wishful thinking. @Prokaryotes: It is a repeatable feature of fringe science that opponents get the last (and usually also dominant) word in the scientific literature. We don't cite many supporters in the article on Prosper-René Blondlot, and we don't cite antivaxers to "balance" the article on Andrew Wakefield. Guy (Help!) 09:50, 17 December 2015 (UTC)

Youre welcome. The case here is quite interesting, as Séralini has the backing of big organic, as you say, and the others are around with bigGMO. Science as such plays only the role of a football. Which is - according Wynne and other STS people - quite normal in the case of Wicked problems. Polentarion Talk 12:22, 17 December 2015 (UTC)

Conflicts of interest

The French article has various sections about COIs. Translation: In a communiqué commun, l'Académie d'agriculture de France, l'Académie nationale de médecine, l'Académie nationale de pharmacie, l'Académie des sciences, l'Académie des technologies et l'Académie vétérinaire de France have claimed a questionable coincidence of the book and documentary Tous Cobayes ! together with a doubtable study. Firthermore, his connections with the Entreprise Sevene Pharma are doubtable, he wrote a book 'Nous pouvons nous dépolluer (2009)' and talks about his friends from that compagny, which produces e.g. homeopathic remedies against pollutants. Good luck. 2015 he was forced to state financial help from his friends. Among others, money givers to Séralini comprise

1. La Fondation Lea Nature, liée à l'entreprise Léa Nature and the Jardin Bio markets.
2. Nature Vivante une association promouvant l'alimentation biologique et sans OGM.
3. Malongo, une entreprise commercialisant du café, du chocolat et de snack dont une gamme équitable et / ou biologique et sans OGM. # La Fondation Ekibio, fondation various figures du militantisme écologiste (Michelle Rivasi, Jean Paul Jaud, Jean Marie Pelt, Marc Dufumier, François Villerette, la naturopathe Laurence Salomon) et Gilles Eric Séralini73.
4. Auchan et Carrefour have handed over 3.2 million euros via la fondation Céres
5. La Fondation Denis Guichard (FDG),
6. La fondation JMG , ealrier Goldsmith Foundation, Ben and Zac Goldsmith among antiOGM activists.
7. La Fondation Charles Léopold Mayer pour le Progrès de l'Homme. 1 millions d'euro au CRIIGEN.
8. Greenpeace has financed CRIIGEN en 2007
9. Sustainable Food Alliance (SFA), see Rodale Inc, see UK Soil Association, see Sustainable Food Trust. financier majeur de CRIIGEN et de Séralini.
10. L'Institute Bio Forschung Austria Polentarion Talk 00:22, 17 December 2015 (UTC)

CRIIGEN is an independent research lab, not an activist think tank (among new article additions), there are sources missing, references which lack WP standards, OR issues, transparent research funds are not COI. prokaryotes (talk) 04:37, 17 December 2015 (UTC)

I dispute that. It might have started with that goal in mind, but by its nature it has attracted activists (including Séralini). The front page of its website currently proclaims: "Victory in Paris vs Monsanto GMO Cabal by F. William Engdahl - nov. 2015". That is not neutrality. I have looked down the list of publications and despite their claims to evaluate the "risks and benefits" can only find papers promoting risks. Their position papers are also uniformly negative. So this group is every bit as suspect as any lab run by Monsanto, and for exactly the same reasons: they are funded by "Big Organic", and their funders and supporters have a strong ideological bias against GMOs. Guy (Help!) 09:48, 17 December 2015 (UTC)

Séralini was among the founders of CRIIGEN, so it started as activist as planned. F. William Engdahl is a former laRouchie, aBiotic Oiler and moderate Climate Sceptic and jumps on any wagon he might write a doomy book on. I doubt he's got the greatest credentials here. Polentarion Talk 11:56, 17 December 2015 (UTC)

Biotic oil? Wow. A whole new form of crazy I had not previously encountered. The LaRouche BS has been a problem here since forever of course. Guy (Help!) 18:21, 17 December 2015 (UTC)

As a good sceptic, you and I have to believe in biotic oil - abiotic is the scam ;) But I very much agree with the LaRouche bit ;) Polentarion Talk 19:17, 17 December 2015 (UTC)

Funny catholics

2012, a blog "Agriculture & Environnement" found some connections between owners and managers from Sevene Pharma and the Invitation à la vie movement. It sounds like Steiner people going catholic. Daniel Chauvin, director of Sevene Pharma and 10 % shareholder is as well président of IVI. Séralini démented any relation between IVI and Seven Pharma ('s policy) in a le Monde Interview. Daniel Chauvin did the same in a Right of reply in Agriculture & Environnement. Séralini has been friendly about Sevene Pharma products, but not much more. "C’est juste pour dire que c’est possible." 2013 he took part in a two day seminary, with contributiuons from Sevene Pharma, organized by CRIIGEN. Interesting, but not much more to say as we already have in the article now. Polentarion Talk 12:53, 17 December 2015 (UTC)

That sounds like guilt-by-association to me. The homeopathy industry is full of cranks, almost by definition! Guy (Help!) 13:39, 17 December 2015 (UTC)

Guy, I am more pragmatic about that. I see the success of both homeopathy (10% of the pharma market in middle europe) and Seralini as a sort of Chesterton paradox - it exists and seems to work for a large amount of people, so there is something behind it. Polentarion Talk 13:49, 17 December 2015 (UTC)

How is this relevant to the content of this article? Dialectric (talk) 15:33, 17 December 2015 (UTC)

When I started to edit here, the article had a tag asking to translate from the more detailed French WP version. I did so but left comments about the contents I introduced on this disk. We all know its a disputed subject. That said, the French WP has a lenghty (and contentious) section on the IVI connection. I don't see it as being useable here, but I mentioned it here to complete the translation task and provide some transparency. Polentarion Talk 16:29, 17 December 2015 (UTC)

The "something" is regression to the mean, placebo effects and other non-specific effects. Remember: there is no reason to suppose homeopathy should work, because like does not cure like, no way it can work (unless we are profoundly wrong about the nature of matter, chemistry, biology and human physiology), and no proof it does work, because all clinical evidence is fully consistent with the scientific understanding that the "remedies" themselves are inert. There is no legitimate scientific dissent from the view that homeopathic "remedies" as normally dispensed are sugar pills with no active ingredient and no potential to objectively affect the patient. Guy (Help!) 16:54, 17 December 2015 (UTC)

Yes but we better refrain from starting to discuss another contentious topic here. homeopathy is currently linked and thats enough for me. Polentarion Talk 17:16, 17 December 2015 (UTC)

When you include content you need to provide a reference, currently the reference on homeopathy leads to a 404 page. prokaryotes (talk) 18:00, 17 December 2015 (UTC)

Sorry, I had overseen that during copyediting the French imports. Corrected now with a archive link. Polentarion Talk 19:03, 17 December 2015 (UTC)

Main conclusions of the affair

I have reverted this large inclusion because it was sourced to blogs and POV news cites. Let's discuss the content here and determine if it should be included and if it can be better sourced. Minor4th 20:07, 17 December 2015 (UTC)

Its about my recent addition My cents A) We need a summary of the scandal. B) Its based on science papers and serious newspapers, you deleted a handful of sources with a DOI and the requested changes on the homeopathy thingy. I therefore ask to restore the content. Polentarion Talk 20:13, 17 December 2015 (UTC)

WP:BRD is all good. Having seen the content, I don't see any obvious objections, perhaps you could clarify exactly what you find objectionable? Guy (Help!) 11:07, 18 December 2015 (UTC)

Its just a summary of the affair, based on the sources overthere. Do you think they do not work here but may be accepted in the affair article? Sounds like an existing POV-Fork then. Polentarion Talk 15:35, 18 December 2015 (UTC)

The whole "affair" article is a POV fork, but if we try to merge it into the BLP then many editors want to make the whole article essentially a smear piece. Minor4th 15:51, 18 December 2015 (UTC)

Seralini supported the good ones, what would have happened if he supported "Lord" Monckton and the climate crowd? I would guess the current description would have been discounted as being way too friendly. Polentarion Talk 16:21, 18 December 2015 (UTC)

I'm not following you. Back to the topic at hand - the content I removed was sourced to advocacy blogs and primary sources. There may have been a decent cite in there but it didn't support the whole narrative. We can talk about it line by line if you wish. Minor4th 16:37, 18 December 2015 (UTC)

Sorry, you reverted stuff containg various DOIs, the BBC and solid newspapers. The claim about advocacy blogs and primary sources is just not valid. Polentarion Talk 17:09, 18 December 2015 (UTC)

Supporters and funding

There is a reference to the Genetic Literacy Project, which contains a rather long list https://www.geneticliteracyproject.org/2015/06/18/organic-industry-and-other-funders-behind-seralinis-anti-gmo-studies/ But the page contains no cites/sources at all. Here i pointed out how the GLP misleads. I've nothing against the mention of funders, but it should be on point without judgements like "by anti-gmo activist..." etc., and we should use RS. prokaryotes (talk) 09:00, 18 December 2015 (UTC)

I do not think GLP is an appropriate source for this article. We have better sources for the mainstream perspective, and indeed for all perspectives, without resorting to activists. Guy (Help!) 11:06, 18 December 2015 (UTC)

If you do not use GLP, you have to refer to Seralinis own studies and start WP:OR or edit based on the GLP without mention it. I would stay with it as it is now. Polentarion Talk 15:29, 18 December 2015 (UTC)

if those are the only sources, then I don't think the content should be included in this article. Minor4th 15:49, 18 December 2015 (UTC)

You willingly misunderstand me. Its well known and sourceable that he has COIs and is being funded by big organic. GLP is the best source to provide a summary about his known funders resp. COIs. Polentarion Talk 16:18, 18 December 2015 (UTC)

If it's well known, then find a neutral reliable source that discusses the information. I'm not judging what you are saying - I'm judging the source. Minor4th 16:39, 18 December 2015 (UTC)

I wont, since that blog made the discovery. It has been quoted in solid journals, even cross bondaries. Polentarion Talk 17:08, 18 December 2015 (UTC)

I am going to remove this as it is sourced to Primary sources and a blog. I also think it is undue to have a bulleted list like this. AIRcorn (talk) 16:12, 30 December 2015 (UTC)

Deletion of Acadamy Bulletin

I suggest to try a google translation instead of reverting and deleting valid content. [4]. The translation is far from OR. If you don't like bluntness and a clear statement, don't put the blame on the messenger. They meant it as frank as worded. Polentarion Talk 15:49, 19 December 2015 (UTC)

Did you write the translation? If so did you use google translate? Whoever added this section cherry-picked specific sentences that are neither section headings nor the conclusion. They also seem to have limited French comprehension - there is nothing in that section which could reasonably be translated to 'a sort of game'. The word 'equip', in this context, means a team of scientists. I replaced the questionable material with a fairly direct translation of the section headings. Dialectric (talk) 16:44, 19 December 2015 (UTC)

Point is we dont have to provide a verbal translation, but a summary, playing games in systematic misinforming the public can be read from the academies bulletin. They called Seralinis "study" a scientific non-event, accused him of orchestrating the faim of a scientist (and his team) to gain public interest and raise irrational fears based on irrelevant results and questionable methods. You may be less outspoken as the academies, but to quote them is no break of BLP. Polentarion Talk 17:21, 19 December 2015 (UTC)

Now you see it, now you don't

A paper in a predatory journal has vanished only 24 hours after its press launch: http://retractionwatch.com/2016/01/27/seralini-paper-claiming-gmo-toxicity-disappears-after-journal-domain-expires/ Guy (Help!) 00:27, 31 January 2016 (UTC)

What has this todo with the article? And the blog you link to claims the journal is listed on another blog as potential, possible or probable to be a "predator" journal. Which you claim here is indeed a predator journal. However, the journal is not listed there. prokaryotes (talk) 02:42, 31 January 2016 (UTC)

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Unsupported claim about scientific support

In the "2012 paper" section, one can find the following statement:

"With a few exceptions, the scientific community dismissed the Séralini study and called for a more rigorous peer-review system in scientific journals."

It refers to a short article by Martinelli et al. In this article, there is one sentence which reads:

"Scientific community – with few exceptions (21) – replied with a quantity of opinions and response letters from top scientists, where the Seralini study was dismissed and a more solid peer-review system in scientific journals was claimed for (22)."

The first reference is to an official statement of ENSSER, while the other is an opinion by Hirt and some other scientists of EPSO.

Nowhere the article gives figures that could help establish that the statement of ENSSER is indeed an exception. How many scientists were supporting Séralini, how many were not? Without an answer to that very simple question, I don't see how Wikipedia could keep the current claim. Taking the claim of Martinelli et al. at face value is not good enough. At the very least, the Wikipedia article should say "According to Martinelli et al. ...".

By simply reusing Martinelli's claim and putting a reference that most people won't read at the end, the current version of the Wikipedia article brings Martinelli's claim to a level of truth that is not justified.

The version that I proposed is an attempt to resolve the issue. Unfortunately it was deleted by Alexbrn without justification and who then accuse me of edit warring... --Fabienpe (talk) 07:16, 13 October 2016 (UTC)

Your "without justification" accusation is false: I referenced WP:GEVAL in my edit summary. There is no doubt that the Roundup paper has been dismissed by mainstream science and we should not be implying it's in the balance (as your edit did). So we simply WP:ASSERT the case, supported by a good source. No change needed. Alexbrn (talk) 07:38, 13 October 2016 (UTC)

As Alexbrn says, the source is perfectly acceptable for this. You won't get a series of scientific papers stating "Séralini paper still bullshit", that's not how science works. Guy (Help!) 09:34, 13 October 2016 (UTC)

As others have pointed out, Seralini's overall work, and especially the paper in question, are characterized in the scientific community as what we call on Wikipedia WP:FRINGE. We can't unduly legitimize his work on Wikipedia. Kingofaces43 (talk) 13:54, 13 October 2016 (UTC)

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