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Talk:Gdańsk


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GdánskEdit

There are several pages that link to this article via the redirect Gdánsk (i.e. with the accent on the a not the n) and it gets a handful more mentions. Is this a valid alternative or former spelling or is it a misspelling that should be corrected? Thryduulf (talk) 11:23, 11 June 2017 (UTC)

There isn't an "á" in Polish language. --Jonny84 (talk) 12:53, 11 June 2017 (UTC)
I'll mark it as a {{R from misspelling}} then. Thryduulf (talk) 13:21, 11 June 2017 (UTC)

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Polish NationalismEdit

Large parts of the history section were filled with Polish Nationalism, in particular the time of the Free Republic. Poland is nowadays trying to rewrite history as to remove all antisemitism that was strong in Poland. Pogroms against Jews were committed over thousand years, but now they try to "abolish" that by new laws, which were heavily critisized by Israel.

I've reverted your edits as they were unsourced, removed sourced claims, and were of poor quality. If you wish to make changes you need to have corroborating sourced and references that back up your claims. If what you way is true you should have no difficulty in finding such references. Chaheel Riens (talk) 20:18, 24 April 2018 (UTC)

Lead and bold fontEdit

Rather minor, but MOS:BOLDSYN and MOS:QUOTENAME strongly suggest that a frequently used variant (as is the case here) be mentioned as such (i.e. "Gdansk, also known as Danzig in German, is [...]") and bolded in the lead - it explicitly gives the example of "Mumbai, also known as Bombay [i.e. the old British variant, even if that variant can, as per what is in the article, 'result in emotional outbursts sometimes of a violently political nature.']".

Also, this seems to be what is done at, surprise, Britannica, where the article begins "Gdańsk, German Danzig [formatting as in source]" and is then referred to as Gdansk throughout (except for a specific example concerning a German writer). 198.84.253.202 (talk) 02:45, 15 June 2018 (UTC)

@Volunteer Marek: ping fix 198.84.253.202 (talk) 02:48, 15 June 2018 (UTC)
Note, this is also the practice followed on other wikis. fr:Gdańsk has no less than 5 bold variants: "Gdańsk, Gduńsk en cachoube, Danzig en allemand (d’où Dantzig ou Dantzick en français),"; es:Gdansk has the German and Polish variants in bold, "Gdansk​ (anteriormente Dánzig)", as does the German de:Danzig, which has "Danzig (polnisch Gdańsk [ɡdaɲsk] kaschubisch Gduńsk)". 198.84.253.202 (talk) 03:17, 15 June 2018 (UTC)
@LechitaPL: 198.84.253.202 (talk) 21:05, 15 June 2018 (UTC)

It's not a "frequently used variant". It was, maybe 30 years ago, but not now.Volunteer Marek (talk) 21:47, 15 June 2018 (UTC)

Google reveals 30 million results for Gdansk, 12 mil. for Danzig. Obviously, it is used. Also, its use in historical documentsthroughout history cannot be ignored. 198.84.253.202 (talk) 21:55, 15 June 2018 (UTC)
Ummm... Danzig.Volunteer Marek (talk) 22:02, 15 June 2018 (UTC)
A significant portion of results are still to the city. And what of the "history" part??? 198.84.253.202 (talk) 22:03, 15 June 2018 (UTC)
And a significant portion are in German or Dutch. What "history" part? Volunteer Marek (talk) 22:08, 15 June 2018 (UTC)
And a significant portion (of mentions to Gdansk) must be in Polish, too. Gdańsk#History, the whole "part of Prussia/Germany/other random German speaking entity"... 198.84.253.202 (talk) 22:11, 15 June 2018 (UTC)
And the claim that "maybe 30 yrs ago, but not now" is dubious. Obviously, there was still enough "dispute" over it to create both an entry worthy of WP:LAME and a vote on the issue just 10 yrs ago (see top of this page...) 198.84.253.202 (talk) 22:21, 15 June 2018 (UTC)
"Google reveals 30 million results for Gdansk, 12 mil. for Danzig" - however, this is not a source of information. LechitaPL (talk) 21:59, 15 June 2018 (UTC)
It is a commonly used tool. What of Britannica, then, or the other language wikis I gave as example? 198.84.253.202 (talk) 21:59, 15 June 2018 (UTC)

─────────────────────────Modern English sources which use, or make mention of the use, of "Danzig" (in combination with Gdansk) - thus demonstrating that it is indeed a "frequently used variant":

  • [1] "Gdansk, German: Danzig (the two names are often used interchangeably)"
  • Yad Vashem Clear use of the name in a historical context - which means that the German name is still used for periods where the city was considered German


Thus, the city now being Polish does not whitewash the part of the city's history when it was part of (a predecessor state of modern-day) Germany [and is referred to using the German name in scholarly litterature]. As such, both names deservedly should be in bold. Unlike "Kaliningrad" (which is hardly ever referred to by it's German name, Koenigsberg, and even then maybe only in historical contexts). 198.84.253.202 (talk) 23:02, 16 June 2018 (UTC)

Nonsense...as in the case of Kaliningrad, the term Konigsberg is historical and in the context of Gdańsk, the name Danzig is historical. Gdańsk for most of the period belonged to Poland and was founded under Polish rule. The present city was rebuilt from ruins, the German population fled or was displaced, the unit "Free City of Gdańsk" collapsed. There have been no Germans in the city since 1945, so there is no autonomy or other status. Underlining completely pointless, probably only to prove Germanophilia. LechitaPL (talk) 23:41, 16 June 2018 (UTC)
Very nice, but that's your personal opinion. Above, I have two three recent WP:RS (Britannica, Yad Vashem, Beit Hatfutsot) which explicitly use the German name, one of them even telling explicitly that "the two names are often used interchangeably". As such, your opinion is nothing more than that, and it can be discarded. Implying I'm a Nazi (which is the only possible meaning of "Germanophilia" in this context) is a clear, unacceptable WP:PA198.84.253.202 (talk) 23:45, 16 June 2018 (UTC)
since when does Germanophilia mean the Nazis? LechitaPL (talk) 00:13, 17 June 2018 (UTC)
When it's used in a negative context (or used in a way that seems to imply some negative opinion about the person being commented upon). 198.84.253.202 (talk) 00:24, 17 June 2018 (UTC)
Very nice, but that's your personal opinion. LechitaPL (talk) 00:26, 17 June 2018 (UTC)
You should still abstain from commenting on others. Whether neutral or negative, that part of the comment is rather "completely pointless", as you have so kindly pointed out. 198.84.253.202 (talk) 00:28, 17 June 2018 (UTC)
Uh, your first source explicitly says that "Danzig" is the German version of the name. Likewise, the Yad Vashem source uses "Danzig" because it's focused exclusively on the interwar period and WW2 when it was the Free City of Danzig. So, nope. Anyway, you'd need more than two sources. Also, since there's a dedicated section for "Names", the German version shouldn't even appear in the lede.
BTW, have you edited with a different account previously? Volunteer Marek (talk) 23:54, 16 June 2018 (UTC)
So what? I'm not saying that "Danzig" is the Polish name of the city. I am saying that is is the German name, and that it has been used (is still being used) to various extents by various sources to refer to the city, including most notably in historical contexts. Per the principle of least surprise, then, the reader of the article coming here from the Danzig redirect would expect to see it in bold in the lead, as is done with other historical-name-variants-still-sometimes-used[or-used-really-a-lot-in-historical-documents-and-historical-contexts} cities, like Bombay (i.e. Mumbai), Aix-la-Chapelle (i.e. Aachen), the name he was redirected from, in this case Danzig. The name being historical is of little importance, what is important is its used in English-language reliable sources, which the three sources I provide demonstrate conclusively. 198.84.253.202 (talk) 00:03, 17 June 2018 (UTC)
Right. It's the German name. But this isn't German Wikipedia. Also, there's something called the Gdansk vote, which you're probably aware of since you invoked the fact that this dispute has been mentioned over at WP:LAME, which is also what led me to inquire if you've edited from another account previously, which you still haven't answered.Volunteer Marek (talk) 00:05, 17 June 2018 (UTC)
It's the German name which was and is still sometimes used in English-language publications. And, re your question, no. 198.84.253.202 (talk) 00:08, 17 June 2018 (UTC)

─────────────────────────An alternative option would be to do as with Kaliningrad and have two separate articles: one for the post-1945 period (under the name (example: Kaliningrad) "Gdansk" [with the diacritic]) and another for the before-1945 period (example: Koenigsberg) (with the name "Danzig"). The variant names could then simply be dealt with with the {{about}} template. 198.84.253.202 (talk) 00:36, 17 June 2018 (UTC)

Nonsense. Gdansk until 1793 belonged to Poland. After 1793, the partition of Poland took place, but the Polish population of Gdańsk still existed. Quite a different example than with Kaliningrad. LechitaPL (talk) 00:42, 17 June 2018 (UTC)
Calling "nonsense" for a city with such a complex history doesn't make the cut here. Also, the above referenced Gdansk vote gives preference to the name "Danzig" for the whole 1308-1945 period. 198.84.253.202 (talk) 00:55, 17 June 2018 (UTC)
Regarding naming, copied directly from Talk:Gdansk/Vote#An_attempt_at_persuasion_on_1466-1793:

1) English language sources generally use Danzig when referring to the city at this time. General use textbooks like John Elliott's Europe Divided 1559-1598, Geoffrey Parker's Europe in Crisis 1598-1648, William Doyle's The Old European Order 1660-1800, McKay and Scott's The Rise of the Great Powers 1648-1815, Jeremy Black's The Rise of the European Powers 1679-1793, and so forth, all refer to the city as "Danzig". A JSTOR search shows a limited number of references to the city as "Gdansk" - only 61 articles total mention "Gdansk", and many of those are references to the city since 1945. There are, on the other hand, 552 articles which mention "Danzig", and many of them are discussing the eighteenth century and earlier. [this is a JSTOR search of articles in the 56 journals that are classified as historical. A few of these articles, but not very many, will be from before 1945]

2) This English usage makes sense. The city was primarily a linguistically German city from the early 14th century on. Since 1945 it has been a linguistically Polish city. It makes sense to make the name switch only in 1945, because this corresponds to a major shift in the city that did not occur in 1454 or 1793.

198.84.253.202 (talk) 01:19, 17 June 2018 (UTC) And another quote, same place, regarding "official usage":

Another point: For those of you impressed by the fact that Gdansk/Danzig was under Polish sovereignty from 1466-1793, notice that we don't use this as the basis for how we name cities in other early modern contexts. Most of modern day Belgium and Luxembourg were under Spanish control in the 16th and 17th centuries, and then under Austrian control in the 18th century. We don't refer to their cities by Spanish or German names in those periods. Nor do we use Spanish or German names to refer to Italian cities under Spanish or Austrian rule in the same time period.

198.84.253.202 (talk) 01:22, 17 June 2018 (UTC)
Look, you're not convincing anyone and you're edit warring against several editors. Consensus is against you. Please stop.Volunteer Marek (talk) 06:02, 17 June 2018 (UTC)
(and one could just as easily quote opposing views from the same discussion, so that doesn't really mean anything).Volunteer Marek (talk) 06:03, 17 June 2018 (UTC)
"Several" - 2 (Polish, but that should be irrelevant, right? It's not like nationalism of any kind existed there anyway, right?). You're WP:STONEWALLING to supposedly consensus (which has never been discussed, from what I see, so we don't know if it's based on policy or not, or really if its consensus or the opinion of a few editors) and refusing to compromise. If you think there's no problem, say so, but don't come up with some bad claim to consensus when there's only 3 of us. So far, none of you two has cited a single WP:RS or a single MOS policy, or really, any kind of policy whatsoever besides WP:IDONTLIKEIT ("Nonsense. Gdansk until ..." [which is why I answered with the quote from the discussion - if you think the opposing arguments are grounded in policy, then you should thoroughly read Wikipedia:Official names, or really, the whole of WP:TITLE, and the corresponding parts of the MOS, which I have already linked above]). 198.84.253.202 (talk) 15:01, 17 June 2018 (UTC)
IMO, for what it's worth, the other two editors should have presented a real argument instead of just ignoring the OP's. Names are not about which name is widely used "now". "It's old" is not an argument because history matters and encylopedias are not exclusively for people working from "the latest" materials. They are here precisely because people lack information and are searching for it. "It's German" is not an argument because the sources using the word are English sources and this is English Wikipedia. "Two against one" on a page with little traffic is not a genuine consensus: an RfC could have been started. Is this even necessary? Why not just add a sentence stating: "The German name Danzig formerly had a wide currency but is now used only primarily in German-speaking countries." Simple, factual. In fact, I think I will be WP:BOLD and add it myself. ZarhanFastfire (talk) 17:56, 5 December 2018 (UTC)
ZarhanFastfire, whether the name is in bold or not I do not mind, however, this information does not fit in the very first sentence of the article. The first sentence should contain name of city, location, population and area. Oliszydlowski, 18:03, 5 December 2018 (UTC)
Cite a Wikipedia policy stating why it "doesn't fit". Whether you mind is not relevant. Policy and precedent across other Wikipedia articles about cities and countries, persons, organziations, etc. that have had different names all pretty much do this and no-one seems to "mind". No-one who has objected to this absolutely standard Wikipedia procedure has ever actually provided a WP policy to support their personal objection, and personal objections carry no weight. Also, it's not in the first sentence. It's the last sentence in the first paragraph. So there's no problem.ZarhanFastfire (talk) 01:08, 6 December 2018 (UTC)

- Wikipedia:Manual of Style/Lead section, I do not need to cite policies which are obvious. There is a statement in the manual of style in the link provided that the lead must provide a "neutral point of view". Talking or explaining the name "Danzig" in the very first sentence is not neutral. The lead can contain "Only the first occurrence of the title and significant alternative titles" in bold but not their explanations. Danzing is not an official name in English nor does any English-speaking country refer to Gdańsk as Danzig. Oliszydlowski, 02:17, 6 December 2018 (UTC)

When you do not refer to no policy and call it obvious, you run the risk of enganging in original research albeit unwittingly. There is nothing "non-neutral" in simply stating, factually, the historical name of the city found in (historical) English sources. You will have to explain to me what you mean when you say it's "non-neutral", because I have no idea what that can possibly mean in this context. You seem to be implying it's "taking a side". How? What's the issue? Who's arguing it? Or how am I somehow being "non-neutral"? You said earlier that you don't mind if it was in bold, but previous editors on this page objected to using bold for the alternate names already present, but I was suggesting this as a compromise. Based on your stated position and that of the anonymous editor who originally proposed the bold, we should go ahead and bold both the name. As a not-quite aside, your closing sentence is contradicted by this very talk page (scroll up to the beginning of the section). But since you do agree the name should have been put in bold, I'll do that at least. I really do feel there should be a statement about the name being used historically though. ZarhanFastfire (talk) 16:24, 6 December 2018 (UTC)
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