Talk:Flame retardant

Wiki Education Foundation-supported course assignment

This article was the subject of a Wiki Education Foundation-supported course assignment, between 1 September 2020 and 20 December 2020. Further details are available on the course page. Student editor(s): AaronAGolab.

Above undated message substituted from Template:Dashboard.wikiedu.org assignment by PrimeBOT (talk) 21:30, 16 January 2022 (UTC)

Environment/health lobbyist/organizations have (had?) too specific focus

If you study this subject enough you find that banning specific things is not a solution as new ones can be synthesized these days easily (think of all the slight variations of recreation drugs that one 'hobbyist' famously made up to skirt around regulations/bans).

The only long term solution here is to have every product run go through GCMS test of a sample that captures both permeates/absorption and outgassing compounds. The Mass Spectra of such test needs to be assigned a code that can be looked up from eg. product labeling, Cable Sleeve/insulations (they already have lot of small print but nothing about the chemicals used) and googled. Such test equipment is these days portable and easy to use so there is no technical or cost reason preventing such. If end users get ill from using a product, the end user accessible mass spectra allows tracing possible compounds through elimination process of end user trying other products with slightly different spectra. (the spectra should make it easy to distinguish currently widely used compounds, the compounds need not be named if their 'frequency' in the spectra stands out)

This page explains how end-user/spot-test samples can be correlated back to manufacturing-compliance test samples even if different equipment was used https://www.mzcloud.org/Features — Preceding unsigned comment added by 91.155.26.87 (talk) 12:28, 2 May 2016 (UTC)

People who are on the computer a lot (everyone these days!) have primary exposure from keyboard and accessories/cables, flooring, as these contain not only flame retardants but other things that pass through the plastic to skin and outgas. This trace exposure is not enough to make you ill in a manner that someone else could diagnose easily but it's enough to impair focus (you'd have to be already pretty unfocused person to notice the effect, if you are easily focused then you would not notice a minor impairment). Not every keyboard is the same, that's why every product run needs testing if they contain outgassing or otherwise permeating substances, as the consumer has no way beside owning a GCMS device to find out until they've become very sensitive over long term exposure due to accumulation of the substances.

I also have a theory that people are genetically bit different so it's possible some people won't notice such effects as easily, similar how to some people can consume diets that others find make them ill. The proof of this is in that some people, at the extreme, have facial and behavioral characteristics that are more close to specific ancestor ape species. It's likely that this explains why some get side effects from drugs more easily etc. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 91.155.26.87 (talk) 11:16, 2 May 2016 (UTC)

Untitled

On the other hand, this materials can be produced out of melamine and dipentaerythriol. Herein melamine functions as a blowing agent that forms barrier to flame.

The mechanism of fire retardancy is simply inhibition of oxygen with radical formation of these organic materials, the element which burns materials. However inorganic materials behaves as capturing agents for oxygens molecules.

I know little of chemistry, but this sounds like balderdash. I came across this while looking through the User Contributions page for 212.98.201.1, from which address I've seen a fair bit of vandalism. It's possible that this is just some rubbish (I mean, "radical formation of these inorganic materials"? What the heck is that supposed to mean?) inserted by a vandal, or it may be from somebody with a weak grasp of English. If this is valid information, it's still incomprehensible. Either way, I'm cutting it. Mr. Billion 18:44, 10 May 2005 (UTC)

Merge suggested

I would suggest to merge the articles flame retardant and fire retardant as these terms are very similar. --Lucido 13:05, 21 January 2007 (UTC)

Flame resistant redirects to flame retardant, which may make sense from a chemistry point of view, but not so much from a functional point of view. (In general usage, flame retardant treatments make things flame resistant. Clothing, for instance, is marketed as "fire resistant", not "flame retardant".)

In my opinion, flame resistance deserves a page of its own discussing the functional uses of flame-resistant products and the applicable National Fire Protection Association and ANSI standards in the U.S. and related standards elsewhere in the world.

Jmozena 16:18, 2 March 2007 (UTC) [[Yes I think merging is a good idea. I wasted a lot of time looking for fire retardants etc. User: Jag

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March 9, 2015 Dennis Hoffman --------------

Merging "fire retardant" and "flame resistant" does not make sense for my industry. -- Fire Retardant implies a material that when added to or combined with another material, retards or suppresses a fire. -- Flame Resistant implies that a material that when exposed to a flame or fire, that it resists burning and melting, and that when the flame is removed the material does not continue combustion on its own.

Flame Resistant (FR) clothing is widely used to protect workers from flames and arcs. This clothing resists flames, but the clothing is not used to retard a fire.

reference OSHA 1910.269 App E Protection From Flames and Electric Arcs. reference NFPA-70E "Handbook for Electrical Safety in the Workplace" reference IEEE/ANSI C2 section 41, National Electrical Safety Code(R) NESC reference ASTM F-1506-01 "Standard for Performance Specification for Flame Resistant Textile Materials for...." reference various FR clothing vendors

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Not metals

"metals such as aluminium hydroxide, magnesium hydroxide, antimony trioxide," is clearly incorrect - these materials are not metals. 84.245.0.98 (talk) 16:20, 18 June 2008 (UTC)

Phosphates

Tri-o-cresyl phosphate is not halogenated. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 216.99.65.63 (talk) 16:33, 24 September 2008 (UTC)

Balance

We've got stuff in here about the hazards of the materials used. We should also have something about the deaths, injuries, and property damage prevented by the use of flame retardants. That's what I came here looking for. --Dan Wylie-Sears 2 (talk) 06:06, 20 May 2012 (UTC)

Neither am I a chemist. However, while I'm persuaded that removal of organohalogen compounds from such products in favor of other agents or mitigations is desirable, as a lay person I'm nevertheless able to detect padded-out, one-sided axe-grinding screeds and this article is a doozy. It doesn't take a lot of experience to recognize bias when paragraphs begin with phrases such as "Another interesting study..." "Interesting", to whom? Under what criterion of "interesting"? All that are missing are the "Evil Capitalistical Corporate Conspiracy" section and the proverbial, damning "Swedish Study". On second review, I see they're both here. Rt3368 (talk) 20:26, 25 November 2013 (UTC)

I agree with the sentiment of the last speaker. A quick look at (for example) source n. 13 (for posteriority: see here) reveals that it is apparently more or less a marketing presentation held in something called the J. Polyurethane Foam Association Conference. The thing itself is more or less a "how do you manage to sell the stuff" -presentation that highlights ways for corporations to save money circumvent legislation. It was held by someone representing Natural Foams Technology (UK). Its subtitle (which I find the most damming) was "The Cost, Technical and Regulatory Hurdles". I do not believe this to be a credible source for anything, much less for statements like: 'However, these questions of eliminating emissions into the environment from flame retardants can be solved by using a new classification of highly efficient flame retardants, which do not contain halogen compounds, and which can also be keyed permanently into the chemical structure of the foams used in the furniture and bedding industries. The resulting foams have been certified to produce no flame retardant emissions. This new technology is based on entirely newly developed "Green Chemistry" with the final foam containing about one third by weight of natural oils. Use of this technology in the production of California TB 117 foams, would allow continued protection for the consumer against open flame ignition whilst providing the newly recognized and newly needed protection, against chemical emissions into home and office environments.' Finally, I find this statement not to correlate with the content of the presentation. Flagging as an unreliable source. --188.238.86.148 (talk) 18:34, 25 November 2016 (UTC)

Court cases in WA State

• Child died from unsupervised use of fireworks sparklers. Cotton has a lower ignition temperature (q.v. "Farenheit 451") than synthetic fabrics e.g. polyester fabric. However it was shown tha Cotton burns slowly and at lower temperature so that if child had been supervised the parent could have removed burning clothing with minimal injury. Polyester fabric burns too fast and too hot for response, melting to skin as it continues to burn. Similar in flash fire aboard a navy vessel where enlisted men, required to wear cotton uniforms, all survived but officers all wearing polyester all died.
• PentaBorate often used as flame retardent on cotton products (furniture, insulation, etc)had washed out of childrens pajamas after many washings.

Shjacks45 (talk) 06:09, 21 February 2014 (UTC)

Reference 404 error

Reference 15 gives a 404 error — Preceding unsigned comment added by 83.177.174.137 (talk) 17:14, 29 March 2014 (UTC)

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Possible effects on ozone layer?

Hi, does anybody know if there are serious concerns of brominated and chlorinated flame retardants decomposing under UV light and releasing free radicals destroying ozone? I would assume that at least for some of them it might be the case. Article only talks about health and more direct biological effects. 2A02:168:F609:0:6EB4:8A5F:9FC4:E8FB (talk) 06:33, 15 July 2019 (UTC)

I have never heard about such an issue. FR released into the environment partition into soils and sediments. --Leyo 09:09, 15 July 2019 (UTC)

Proposed merge of Flame retardant cotton into Flame retardant

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section. A summary of the conclusions reached follows.

The result was merge into Flame retardant#Materials. (new section) -- Whiteguru (talk) 06:03, 17 December 2021 (UTC)

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This article would do with just a section on the Flame retardant page. Bobherry Talk Edits 00:32, 7 November 2021 (UTC)

I don't feel strongly. Flame retardant is relatively long and doesn't have other material-specific sections, but Flame retardant cotton is relatively short. What do you think VanillaPumpkin? -Reagle (talk) 17:14, 9 November 2021 (UTC)

If a merge was to take place, I think more material-specific sections on this page would be necessary. Thank you for tagging me! VanillaPumpkin (talk) 18:03, 9 November 2021 (UTC)

• Support merge into new section Flame retardant#Materials Polyamorph (talk) 21:20, 26 November 2021 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Wiki Education assignment: Toxicology

This article was the subject of a Wiki Education Foundation-supported course assignment, between 10 August 2022 and 8 December 2022. Further details are available on the course page. Student editor(s): Daeshjeam (article contribs).

— Assignment last updated by Candencemcneil (talk) 18:12, 28 September 2022 (UTC)

Sodium bicarbonate as a Flame Retardant

• Sodium bicarbonate can be used as a flame retardant due to the heat required for it to decompose, and how it produces Carbon dioxide upon decomposition.
• I am unsure to what extent some sort of substrate is needed, but i'd assume polymers would work, and this paper discusses using Cellulose Nanofibril Aerogels ( may not be a page for that oof, just Aerogels ), so i won't be using weasel words, but *at least with a substrate* (ie not just loose powder) it works
  • https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6150641/ "Eco-friendly Flame-Retardant Cellulose Nanofibril Aerogels by Incorporating Sodium Bicarbonate"
• This is a neat example of Appropriate Materials (or maybe just non/less-scarce, way more sodium/chlorine in seawater brine than bromine!) too so i think that is a neat aspect, may need some more data on all that
• Finally here is some link spam that anyone can look over + can potentially be used for the page(s) made about all this:
  • https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S0040603108004395 "Fire retardancy impact of sodium bicarbonate on ligno-cellulosic materials"
  • https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S0040603108004395 "Laboratory Evaluation of Bicarbonate Powders as Fire Suppressants"
  • https://firefighterinsider.com/baking-soda-flammable-baking-powder/ " Is Baking Soda Flammable? What About Baking Powder? - Firefighter Insider" — Preceding unsigned comment added by Eric Lotze (talk • contribs) 16:09, 31 January 2023 (UTC)

Halogen Free Flame Retardant / retardants as a Subsection may be a neat addition.

• Hearing about this in my Electrical Class
• I haven't looked into it too much, but some breif on-wiki searching lead to:
  • Aluminium diethyl phosphinate
  • An external Link in Society of Plastics Engineers
  • Low smoke zero halogen (maybe just redirect to this?)
  • Some plastic pages
• Either way i thought i'd document this real quick (rushing right now, so i may need to clean this up later)

Eric Lotze (talk) 16:36, 8 February 2023 (UTC)

Wiki Education assignment: Big Ideas in Chemistry

This article was the subject of a Wiki Education Foundation-supported course assignment, between 29 August 2023 and 19 December 2023. Further details are available on the course page. Student editor(s): Chemlearn11 (article contribs). Peer reviewers: Mbrighton3, Greengiraffe123.

— Assignment last updated by Pringlesandluffy (talk) 17:45, 3 October 2023 (UTC)