Talk:English muffin

Naming convention, English muffin vs Muffin

2013-2018 Discussion of naming convention

I had an English muffin then popped over to the computer on a whim to google, "what are English muffins called in England?" I though I'd get quick answer as opposed to being drowned in culture/terminology battle fire, but the latter has occurred. I wonder if there's any way of quantifying or documenting the controversy and vertigo spectrum of opinions and feelings on this matter. Intrinsically, it feels like there should be a thorough article/sub-article for people confused on he matter to find clarification, and be informed of all the different opinions. (Note this yahoo answers thread.) Squish7 (talk) 16:53, 24 July 2013 (UTC) To deal with your whim - "English muffins" are unknown here in England, so most people here don't call them anything. I agree, I would like to see three articles: "muffin", "English muffin", and (possibly) "muffin (British)", to make it clear that there are three different things. But I don't think it's likely to happen. Maproom (talk) 17:41, 24 July 2013 (UTC) To say they were unknown in England in 2013, is quite wrong. While "English muffins" were unknown to me, growing up in England and Scotland in the 80s and 90s, by the early 2000s it started to become quite common to find them in supermarkets at least in London - sold as "English Muffins." The proliferation of American coffeehouse chains such as Starbucks, which sell English muffins, has surely helped raise their profile in the UK. Goffmog (talk) 12:47, 22 April 2014 (UTC) Muffins were well known to me growing up in England and Scotland in the 1970's and 1980's. They weren't often eaten (though some of my relatives used the term to include crumpets which we ate more often) but they existed; could be bought in shops; and were occasionally around. Contemporaries of mine and I found the arrival of large cupcakes being described as "muffins" took some getting used to so that one might have to check what kind of a muffin someone was talking about ("bread not cake"). We certainly wouldn't call them "English muffins". I only knew that term from Peanuts. Francis Davey (talk) 07:20, 23 April 2014 (UTC) Personally Ive never seen them in the shops or ever heard anyone talk about them before EEEEEE1 (talk) 02:17, 13 July 2014 (UTC) So, if these are called muffins in the UK, what do you call a muffin? A muffin in the US is a sweet cake-like bread which often has berries, nuts or grains, and is the shape of a cupcake but can be eaten as part of any meal, whereas a cupcake is more of a dessert with frosting. Also, do you have McMuffin's in the UK?Flight Risk (talk) 19:56, 5 February 2015 (UTC) I live in the north of England and have always known muffins. You see them in the supermarkets and loads of places that serve breakfast have them for eggs benedict etc. I make my own quite often and I hear people talking about them from time to time. I tend to call them English muffins these days because muffin means the American style cupcake to most people . 92.16.64.194 (talk) 22:59, 15 February 2015 (UTC) My recollection is that what Americans call english muffins weren't known in the UK before McDonalds (the first opened in London in 1974). I also remember Alistair Cooke in "Letter from American" saying, some years before, that english muffins are completely unknown in England, and nothing like what the English mean by a muffin. I do vaguely remember the term muffin being used for crumpets, maybe it was used for something else (not the sweet cake though). I would like to find out what muffin used to mean because it feels like a part of our history has been over-written by McDonalds. 90.204.39.124 (talk) 02:18, 5 February 2017 (UTC) I'm not that old (born in 1988). The first time I ever ate a muffin/English muffin was when I had breakfast for the first time in McDonalds in my early 20s (2008?). When I found out they were called "English" muffins I was surprised as I was English and had never heard of them. I thought it was just one of those weird American attributions like "French fries". Or maybe my family were just anti-muffin. C.harrison1988 (talk) 10:33, 2 April 2018 (UTC)

2022 Discussion of naming convention

The below sources are all from 2022 regarding naming of this product, all at the time of writing on sale in the UK and from the top 20 UK supermarkets according to this YouGov poll: https://yougov.co.uk/ratings/food/popularity/supermarket-chains/all

Savoury "English" Muffins:

• https://groceries.asda.com/product/muffins-potato-cakes/warburtons-english-breakfast-muffins/910000203040
• https://www.ocado.com/products/hovis-4-english-muffins-with-sourdough-529271011
• https://www.tesco.com/groceries/en-GB/products/299999454
• https://www.ocado.com/products/hovis-4-english-muffins-with-sourdough-529271011
• https://shop.coop.co.uk/product/6f77799d-e0ca-4677-bcbd-b90e7e725190
• https://www.iceland.co.uk/p/warburtons-4-english-breakfast-muffins/50782.html

Referring to savoury muffins as simply muffins:

• https://groceries.asda.com/product/muffins-potato-cakes/asda-4-plain-muffins/1000007755398
• https://www.sainsburys.co.uk/gol-ui/product/sainsburys-white-muffins-x6
• https://www.ocado.com/products/m-s-4-english-muffins-510715011
• https://groceries.morrisons.com/products/morrisons-butter-muffins-207818011

Sweet Muffins referred to as simply muffin with a flavour:

• https://www.tesco.com/groceries/en-GB/products/268563873
• https://groceries.asda.com/product/mini-bites-muffins/asda-bakers-selection-blueberry-muffins/5761650
• https://www.sainsburys.co.uk/gol-ui/product/sainsburys-chocolate-chunk-muffins-x4-276g
• https://www.waitrose.com/ecom/products/essential-4-blueberry-muffins/817717-772494-772495
• https://www.ocado.com/products/m-s-made-without-zesty-lemon-muffins-511271011
• https://shop.coop.co.uk/product/ea71c6df-1286-4720-b329-fc16d8e20449
• https://groceries.morrisons.com/products/the-english-cake-company-double-chocolate-chip-muffins-472272011
• https://www.iceland.co.uk/p/brompton-house-choc-chip-muffins-with-belgian-chocolate-12x25g-%28300g%29/89894.html#q=muffin&start=1

I found no instances of sweetened muffins being described as American, nor any being referred to without a clarification on flavour.

Though I think it shows it is slightly more common to be listed as an English muffin. I don't think it's possible, to definitively state it is solely called by one or the other name in the UK, only that both are used by different brands.

- DavefaceFMS ^(t) 09:01, 16 April 2022 (UTC)

I think that's plenty of examples to demonstrate that in the UK (a) English muffins are often referred to as English muffins and (b) sweet muffins are only occasionally referred to as "American muffins". Barry Wom (talk) 13:58, 9 September 2022 (UTC)

Requested move

Requested Move Details

The following discussion is an archived discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review. No further edits should be made to this section. The result of the move request was: not moved Armbrust The Homunculus 10:02, 22 October 2013 (UTC) English muffin → Muffin (bread) – Muffins are (at least originally) an English bread, and so they have strong ties to England. In England, they are normally referred to as just "muffins", and the term "English muffin" is a term used outside the UK. Therefore the article should not have a US-centric title, but a UK-centric title as per WP:TIES. Betrand russell 0 (talk) 13:02, 15 October 2013 (UTC) Oppose. Natural disambiguation is preferable to parenthetical. I don't see how the proposed move is beneficial. Zarcadia (talk) 16:01, 15 October 2013 (UTC) Oppose. There is confusion about these topics, which the proposed move will make worse. There are three classes of confection involved: The things which Americans call "muffins", which resemble what used to be called "teacakes" by Brits. These have become increasingly popular in Britain over the last twenty years, and younger Brits now also regard them as "muffins". The things which Americans call "English muffins". These are unknown in Britain. They are rectangular, as seen in the first picture on this page. The things which older Brits call "muffins", while the term is now ambiguous when used by younger Brits. These are, so far as I know, unknown in the U.S. They are round, as seen in the second picture on this page. The proposal is about the term "English muffin", but the reason given starts with a dubious and unevidenced statement about "muffins". It concludes by saying that an article about "English muffins", unknown in England, should have a UK-centric title. Maproom (talk) 16:06, 15 October 2013 (UTC) This doesn't matter a great deal, but North American English muffins aren't really supposed to be rectangular; they're usually round, as depicted in the actually English example. When they don't look particularly round, that's more of a manufacturing error. --BDD (talk) 17:44, 15 October 2013 (UTC) Sorry, but a teacake and a muffin are completely different things. A teacake is actually closer to your third definition than to an "American" muffin. And it's always been called a teacake in Britain. -- Necrothesp (talk) 17:37, 17 October 2013 (UTC) Oppose Besides the benefits of following WP:NATURAL and WP:RETAIN, the proposed title is ambiguous, since what Americans call muffins are also a bread product. --BDD (talk) 17:44, 15 October 2013 (UTC) Oppose for reasons of stability, preference for natural disambiguation, apparently weak current tie to UK (despite the name and historical tie), and vague/awkward suggested new title. Incidentally, please note that there are two related RMs currently under discussion at Talk:Muffin, in which the proposing user here (Betrand russell 0) is also participating in the discussion and is the proposer of at least one of the two RMs. —BarrelProof (talk) 18:09, 15 October 2013 (UTC) Thanks for pointing this out. Especially since the nominators appear to be the same, I've closed the earlier RM, which was never going to succeed anyway. --BDD (talk) 18:38, 15 October 2013 (UTC) User:BDD .... I speedy closed the 2nd RM there which was heading in same direction due to WP:Multiple accounts In ictu oculi (talk) 23:36, 15 October 2013 (UTC) Oppose natural disambiguation is preferred. Hot Stop talk-contribs 01:43, 16 October 2013 (UTC) Oppose, English muffin seems to be by far the common name. - WPGA2345 - ☛ 09:10, 17 October 2013 (UTC) Oppose - Per WP:Common name and as per the various commentators have posted. --Jeremy (blah blah • I did it!) 05:10, 22 October 2013 (UTC) The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a move review. No further edits should be made to this section. Oppose - English Muffin is based on th original crator being English, using a variation of an English teacake. The origins are New York City, USA. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 137.254.4.5 (talk) 14:29, 6 February 2015 (UTC)

The result of the move request was: not moved

Continental Europe

I have come across the term English muffins in various American movies and tv programs, so I looked it up. I came to realize, not only have I known English muffins for quite some time, but also bought them on occasion. However, in german supermarkets they are named "Toastbrötchen", which translates to toast buns. They come pre-sliced and are stored on the same shelf as the square, soft bread intended for toast, sandwiches, and tramezzini. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 92.116.154.106 (talk) 07:55, 4 November 2013 (UTC)

The current version of the article lists Portugal and not Germany under "By country". But the Portugal section only says there is a "similar" product there -- looking at the article for that product, I don't think it's an English muffin, so I wouldn't think it should be included here. And although previously the above comment's details were included in the article, they no longer are.

I believe the Germany fact should be listed (under "by country"), and the Portugal fact should be removed. Al Begamut (talk) 21:24, 5 April 2024 (UTC)

A few things.

• How does the version primarily made in the USA differ to the one available in the UK (and elsewhere?) A: The US version is a type of cake.
• Is the English muffin really English? I thought most breads of this nature originated in Scotland. A: You were wrong.
• Is it fair to include this article in category:American breads and category:Canadian cuisine if the muffin is English in origin? Or does the American version differ enough to be considered uniquely American? A: The US-isn view of the world differs enough from the global view for it to be considered uniquely American

Thanks! --86.135.158.125 (talk) 10:10, 16 September 2015 (UTC)

I think it's in the "American breads" (and probably "Canadian cuisine") categories not because of its origins or because it differs greatly from those in England, but because it is a widely available and consumed foodstuff here (most supermarkets in the US devote a fairly large amount of shelf space to English muffins). Apple pie or Curry would be other good examples of a similarly situated food. It has, in essence, become "nativized". --Bardbom (talk) 05:36, 11 October 2015 (UTC)

They're "American Breads" because they were invented in the United States, this article is horrible. 108.249.169.63 (talk) 03:03, 18 November 2015 (UTC)

This isn't true. Muffins like this have existed in the UK for centuries. The current article is accurate. These muffins were popular in Victorian England where they were sold in the street (as described in the "muffin man" nursery rhyme). It is true that some online sources do propogate the idea that these are an American invention but this is easily disproved by seeing the recipe in older cook books that precede the introduction of muffins to the US.31.54.225.105 (talk) 13:43, 22 December 2016 (UTC)

British Origin

Mrs Beeton's Book of Household Management has a recipe for English muffins 13 years prior to Samuel Bath Thomas moved to America.

>MUFFINS.

>1727. INGREDIENTS.—To every quart of milk allow 1-1/2 oz. of German yeast, a little salt; flour.

>[Illustration: MUFFINS.]

>Mode.—Warm the milk, add to it the yeast, and mix these well together; put them into a pan, and stir in sufficient flour to make the whole into a dough of rather a soft consistence; cover it over with a cloth, and place it in a warm place to rise, and, when light and nicely risen, divide the dough into pieces, and round them to the proper shape with the hands; place them, in a layer of flour about two inches thick, on wooden trays, and let them rise again; when this is effected, they each will exhibit a semi-globular shape. Then place them carefully on a hot-plate or stove, and bake them until they are slightly browned, turning them when they are done on one side. Muffins are not easily made, and are more generally purchased than manufactured at home. To toast them, divide the edge of the muffin all round, by pulling it open, to the depth of about an inch, with the fingers. Put it on a toasting-fork, and hold it before a very clear fire until one side is nicely browned, but not burnt; turn, and toast it on the other. Do not toast them too quickly, as, if this is done, the middle of the muffin will not be warmed through. When done, divide them by pulling them open; butter them slightly on both sides, put them together again, and cut them into halves: when sufficient are toasted and buttered, pile them on a very hot dish, and send them very quickly to table.

>Time.—From 20 minutes to 1/2 hour to bake them.

>Sufficient.—Allow 1 muffin to each person.

The idea that he "invented" muffins is clearly nonsense and marketing. Muffins are English, not American. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.183.210.173 (talk) 10:44, 20 March 2017 (UTC)

NZ use of 'English Muffin'

In addition to the above section pointing out the recipe predates Samuel Bath Thomas, the term 'English Muffin' was in use within New Zealand at least as early as 1871, where one E. H. Percy made them three years prior to Thomas's immigration to the United States. So the line in the article, 'In the US and US-influenced territories', implying this term is from US usage should more correctly be 'Outside England' or 'Outside the UK'.Number36 (talk) 23:53, 11 December 2017 (UTC)

Also just noticed the article claims that the Merriam-Webster dictionary gives the origin of the term "English Muffin" as 1902 (which is the date claimed in the article linked as a supporting ref), but going to Merriam-Webster dictionary itself, it currently claims the term originated in 1858 (link), and the print edition of Merriam-Webster's Collegiate Dictionary: Eleventh Edition, has it as 1884 (link).Number36 (talk) 13:01, 13 December 2017 (UTC)

Serving Method

East coast Canadian here - English muffins, whatever their origin, should not be sliced in half. Rather, they should be pierced with a fork all the way around then gently separated. This gives an uneven surface when compared to when sliced and creates a nicer texture (obviously subjective here) when toasted.

Unreliable sources

Two sources currently used in the article are being used to justify the claim that English muffins were invented in New York in the late 19th century.

This source contains a quote from the book Encyclopedia of American Food and Drink claming that "Most of the store-bought varieties [...] derive from those made by the S. B. Thomas Company of New York" and that "the name was first printed in 1925". Both claims are incorrect based on sources in the article which show that recipes for English muffins were printed in American newspapers as early as 1870 and that the term "English muffin" was in use in America as early as 1859.

This source is unreliable for various reasons, not the least of which is the claim that "no one denies that the English muffin was invented by Samuel Bath Thomas".

I'm removing both sources from the article and the text which cites them. Barry Wom (talk) 17:58, 28 October 2022 (UTC)

Validity of source from BBC Food.

I have added text stating that English Muffins are often difficult to find in the UK, supported by this text from BBC Food: "UK supermarkets sell very few varieties of English muffin and they are sometimes hard to find, but in the US they have become a national favourite and are widely available from bakeries and supermarkets."

I am not sure what the problem with this text is, but an IP user is reverting this based on their own experience that "muffins" are commonly sold in the UK. Well, they seem to be a new thing over here, and I can safely say that you never found them in shops in the 80's and 90's, but that is by-the-by.

Clearly relevant immaculately sourced sentences should not be removed from the text because someone just doesn't like them.

Boynamedsue (talk) 17:39, 27 February 2023 (UTC)

You need to find other sources to back up your claim. They are easily available in all of the top ten UK supermarkets as own brands. Warburtons also produce them. Barry Wom (talk) 17:54, 27 February 2023 (UTC)

That is an assertion without evidence. The fact they are sometimes sold in a minor supermarket like Waitrose (which is the only thing you have proved) does not contradict the reliable source I have introduced, nor would evidence that other supermarkets sometimes stock them now. English Muffins are not really a thing here, and that should be indicated in the article. --Boynamedsue (talk) 20:24, 27 February 2023 (UTC)

Due to the widespread availability of English muffins in the UK, I don't believe the BBC Food article to which you linked to can be considered as a reliable source.

The top ten supermarkets in the UK account for over 95% of grocery spending.[1] Every one of those supermarket chains stock English muffins and all bar one produce their own brand, in some cases in multiple forms. Supermarkets (especially the budget ones) do not create their own brand for a niche product. Warburtons also distribute their muffins countrywide.[2]

As for "assertion without evidence" (and contrary to your claim that they are only "sometimes" sold in supermarkets) here is a list of links to muffins which are currently available in various stores.

Aldi 1: [3]

Aldi 2: [4]

Aldi 3: [5]

Tesco: [6]

Sainsburys: [7]

Lidl: [8]

Asda: [9]

Morrisons: [10]

Co-Op: [11]

Iceland: [12]

Ocado 1: [13]

Ocado 2: [14]

Ocado 3: [15]

Ocado 4: [16]

Waitrose 1:[17]

Waitrose 2: [18]

Waitrose 3: [19]

Barry Wom (talk) 10:12, 28 February 2023 (UTC)

Well, that doesn't contradict "sometimes difficult to find" at all. Things can be stocked occasionally as you well know. I think we need something here to show that these are a new foodstuff in the UK and not as popular as in the US. Any suggestions of what language would be acceptable to you that could do that would be helpful. Boynamedsue (talk) 06:27, 2 March 2023 (UTC)

The above are links to permanent product lines at the supermarkets. They are not stocked occasionally, they are stocked consistently. They are available instore, for home delivery and click and collect. They are clearly not difficult to find.

And have you actually read the article? Muffins are not remotely a "new foodstuff" in the UK; they have been around since at least the early 18th century. Barry Wom (talk) 10:52, 2 March 2023 (UTC)

They may well have been invented in the UK and may well be common there now but at least in the South West in my childhood and up to the age of about 30 when I emigrated (1955 to 1985) they were so rare as to be non-existent.

I suspect that they are a relatively recent re-introduction. Kwhitefoot (talk) 15:05, 21 August 2023 (UTC)

Named brands

If you are going to include named brands of English Muffins you should include Bays. Dildrum (talk) 05:25, 27 October 2023 (UTC)