Talk:Elisabeth of Valois

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This a mess - mainly about Isabella rather than her mother. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 67.171.11.147 (talk) 22:53, 13 October 2007 (UTC) ==I agree.Badly written and badly researced.I had to edit birthdate.Elisabeth was born 2 April1545, her mother 13 April 1519jeanne (talk) 17:39, 12 April 2008 (UTC)

I agree - badly written. I rewrote the body of it (below), please feel free to make use of some or all. I revised, but can not edit.

Élisabeth of Valois (April 2, 1545 – October 3, 1568) was the eldest daughter of Henry II of France] and Catherine de' Medici. She was born in the Chateau of Fontainebleau. Her childhood was spent in the French royal nursery, where her father insisted she share her bedroom with her future sister-in-law, Mary, Queen of Scots, who about her same age. Even though Elisabeth had to give precedence to Mary, (since Mary was already a crowned Queen) the two would remain close friends for the rest of their lives. Elisabeth was described as being shy, timid and very much in awe of her formidable mother; although there is also evidence that Catherine was tender and loving toward Elisabeth. (This was certainly evident in letters to Elisabeth.)

Elisabeth married Philip II of Spain ("Philip the Catholic"), son of Charles V, Holy Roman Emperor and Isabella of Portugal in 1559. Originally married via proxy prior to leaving France, the actual ceremony took place in Guadalajara, Spain upon her arrival. The marriage was a result of the Peace of Cateau Cambrésis (1559). (His second wife, Mary I of England had recently died; making Elisabeth of Valois Philip's third wife.)

Philip was completely enchanted by his 14 year old bride, and within a short period of time had given up his mistress. Despite the significant age difference, Elisabeth was also quite pleased with her husband. (In letters to her mother, she proclaimed herself to be fortunate to have married so charming a prince.) Philip enjoyed hosting chivalric tournaments to entertain his wife. Elisabeth would play liege lady to the three young Princes of the Spanish Court – Don Carlos (heir to the throne), Don Juan (John of Austria, Charles V illegitimate son), and Alessandro Farnese (Duke of Parma, and son of Charles V illegitimate daughter Margaret).

Elisabeth had originally been betrothed to Philip's son, Don Carlos, but political complications unexpectedly necessitated instead a marriage to Philip. Her relationship with her troubled stepson Don Carlos was warm and friendly. Despite reports of his progressively bizarre behavior, Don Carlos was always kind and gentle to Elisabeth. When it eventually became necessary for Philip to lock him away (which shortly lead to the Prince’s demise) Elisabeth cried for days.

Philip was very attached to Elisabeth, staying close by her side even when she was ill with smallpox. Elisabeth's first pregnancy in 1564 ended with a miscarriage of twin girls. She later gave birth to Infanta Isabella Clara Eugenia of Spain on August 12, 1566, and then to Isabella's younger sister, Infanta Catherine Michelle of Spain October 10, 1567. Elisabeth had another miscarriage on October 3, 1568, and died the same day, along with her newborn infant son. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Dgrom (talk • contribs) 21:15, 9 January 2009 (UTC)

Anglicisation of names of *foreign* born

This total anglicisation of names without even mentioning the original birth name(s) of historical figures is ridiculous, making them look as if they had disavowed the country of their birth.

It is also common in Wikipedia to - at least - add the various names of the subject of the article in their original form right after the name given in the article: Marie Antoinette, Frédéric Chopin, Wolfgang Amadeus Mozart.

Élisabeth/Elisabeth/Elizabeth is known in France (the country of her birth) as Élisabeth de France & Élisabeth de Valois, and these should be mentioned right after the form given in English in the first sentence of the introduction, not relegated into a footnote.

Frania W. (talk) 12:11, 22 October 2009 (UTC)

The name she bore as a queen should be mentioned alongside the name she bore as a princess. Preferring one over another doesn't make sense. Then again, mentioning five names (Elisabeth of Valois, Elizabeth of Valois, Élisabeth de Valois, Élisabeth de France and Isabel de Valois) for one person in the lead sentence is hardly neccessary and the lead sentence looks tidier when those names are relegated into a footnote. I don't understand why you moved the French name from the footnote to the lead sentence but left the Spanish name in the footnote. Anyway, I will try moving those names in the second parahraph of the lead section. Surtsicna (talk) 17:17, 22 October 2009 (UTC)

It seems to me that mentioning at the very beginning of an article the name under which one is born is very important instead of taking liberties with that person's name to the point of making its origin a detail worthy only of a footnote.

Joan of Arc has her name in French put immediately after the name given her in English, not in a second paragraph or in a footnote: oh! by the way, the French call her Jeanne d'Arc (her real name was "Jehanne"), but that's only a detail of history!

And if you want to make things tidy, then why don't you redo the introduction of Marie Antoinette? There are two lines - the German original & the French version of her baptismal & last names that could be relegated into footnote n° 1. And, while you're at it, you should anglicise that so French & unacceptable "Marie Antoinette"!

"Marie Antoinette (French pronunciation: [maʀi ɑ̃twanɛt]; German: Maria Antonia Josepha Johanna von Habsburg-Lothringen; French: Marie Antoinette Josèphe Jeanne de Habsbourg-Lorraine); (Vienna, 2 November 1755 – Paris, 16 October 1793)..."

And to be true to your marotte of tolerance zero RE the total anglicisation of all names, why don't you take it upon yourself to rename Marie Antoinette Mary ? (what is English for "Antonia/Antoinette"?)

A very good one to "tidy up" also would be Pyotr Ilyich Tchaikovsky

"Pyotr Ilyich Tchaikovsky (/ˈpiːtər ˈɪlɨtʃ tʃaɪˈkɒfski/; Russian: Пётр Ильи́ч Чайко́вский Pëtr Il'íč Čajkóvskij [ˈpʲɵtr ɪlʲˈjitɕ tɕɪjˈkofskʲɪj] ^ⓘ;"

should not Пётр/Pyotr be anglicised to Peter ?

Then you could turn your attention to Frédéric Chopin

"Frédéric François Chopin ([Fryderyk Franciszek Chopin, sometimes Szopen] Error: {{Lang-xx}}: text has italic markup (help); surname /ˈʃoʊpæn/ in English; French pronunciation: [ʃɔpɛ̃];"

would should be Frederick Francis

In other words, Surtsinca, I do not agree with you. So long! Frania W. (talk) 18:38, 22 October 2009 (UTC)

Frania, nobody is born under a name. A name is not a part of a human being. They called her Élisabeth in France and Isabel in Spain. The name she bore as a queen is Isabel. It cannot be more important to mention her as Élisabeth than to mention her as Isabel.

I cannot believe that you still pretend not to understand my goal. Have I ever expressed any wish to change Marie Antoinette to Mary Antonia (I believe Antonia is English for Antoinette)? Have I ever referred to her as Mary Antonia? I didn't, because all English language sources call her Marie Antoinette. Furthermore, works published after 1990 most commonly refer to this woman as Elizabeth of Valois, but I haven't proposed changing the title of the article because I feel it is a kind of compromise between Élisabeth and Elizabeth. Therefore, referring to my tolerance zero RE the total anglicisation of all names is very inappropriate. Every other example you cite makes no sense, as I have explained to you several times here. Is it that hard to understand that I want articles to use names which are used by the majority of modern authors or do you deliberately distort my intentions? Surtsicna (talk) 19:14, 23 October 2009 (UTC)

Surtsinca, It is not that I do not understand what your goal is, or what you want, it is simply that I do not agree with you in your tolerance zero RE the total anglicisation of all names. You do not have to be plus royaliste que le roi. Frania W. (talk) 22:11, 23 October 2009 (UTC)

P.S. You do not have to refer me back to our recent discussions on other talk pages: I am not senile.

Then why do you distort my intentions, if you remember very well what I said about anglicizing some names and not anglicizing other names? I have already written above that I do not have tolerance zero RE the total anglicisation of all names; if I had it, I would request moving this page to Elizabeth of Valois, as it is undoubtley the most common name for this woman in English. Therefore, your accusations make no sense and it is very rude to keep referring to my tolerance zero RE the total anglicisation of all names just after I made it clear that I do not wish to have this article moved to Elizabeth of Valois (or this article to Louise of Medina). You either ignore what I say or you just don't bother reading at all. Surtsicna (talk) 12:53, 24 October 2009 (UTC)

Since when is discussing & giving one's point of view distorting someone else's intentions? Your intentions, goal & wishes are quite clear to me and I am simply stating that, in many cases, I do not agree with you. In the case at hand, you seem intent on minimising the Frenchness of Élisabeth de Valois:

• first by removing the accent aigu on her otherwise kept French baptismal name,
• next by making it difficult for various editors to give her various names in French,
• then in wanting to relegate them to a footnote,
• then in having her names in both English & Spanish in bold, while keeping her names in French in italics.

You may not consider that people are born with a name, but the names she was given with her first breath were the French ones and, to me, the names given at birth are an important fact/factor in anyone's identity.

Considering that this "unnamed-when-born-individual" was born & given her first names in France, became a Spanish queen & is written about in an English-language encyclopedia, it seems logical to me that all the names she is known by in France, Spain & England should be given in the lead with as much importance, just as done for Marie Antoinette, Chopin & Tchaikovsky, even if, to quote you: "Every other example you cite makes no sense". Frania W. (talk) 18:33, 24 October 2009 (UTC)

What you wrote above looks like an amusing conspiracy theory. So, I have a grudge against the French language and I prefer both Spanish and English over French, right? Please take a look at the history of the article and (hopefully) you'll realise why her Spanish name was in bold. Regarding names, she certainly wasn't given a name with her first breath; she was given a name when she was baptized (and, I assume, the name she was given at baptism was a Latin form of the name Elisabeth). Anyway, I agree with you that the articles about Pyotr Ilyich Tchaikovsky and Marie Antoinette are good examples; the most common name used in English is given in bold and their names in their native languages are given in italics. The lead sentence is now based on those articles, so you are surely satisfied. I know I am. Surtsicna (talk) 19:13, 24 October 2009 (UTC)

Well, that's good! Thank you! Now, would it be too much to ask to have the accent aigu back on the first *E* so as to read Élisabeth, or should we schedule another heated discussion?

Frania W. (talk) 22:25, 24 October 2009 (UTC)

Didn't we just agree that Elisabeth is a compromise between Élisabeth and Elizabeth? The latter is undisputably the most common name, but I won't insist on moving the article to Elizabeth of Valois because Elisabeth of Valois seems to be a good compromise. Note that 427 books (published after 1990) refer to her as Elizabeth of Valois and only 68 books refer to her as Elisabeth (or Élisabeth) of Valois. Therefore, Elisabeth (without the accent aigu) is a compromise that suits you better than me. Surtsicna (talk) 10:57, 25 October 2009 (UTC)

Élisabeth/Elisabeth/Elizabeth

Élisabeth is her first name in French, the translation of which in English is Elizabeth.

Removing the accent aigu to have her as Elisabeth is tantamount to renaming her with a half French/half English name.

The opinion of readers other than Surtsinca & myself is needed in order to have a consensus on the matter, i.e. which first name to choose throughout the article.

Regards, Frania W. (talk) 00:21, 26 October 2009 (UTC)

Just to make the matters clear: you don't want Elisabeth to be a compromise between Élisabeth and Elizabeth, right? If that's so, I'll advocate moving the article to Elizabeth of Valois. Surtsicna (talk) 11:31, 26 October 2009 (UTC)