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Talk:Eastern Orthodox Church

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InfoboxEdit

@Chicbyaccident: This article does not need an infobox (neither does the Oriental Orthodoxy). Why don't you try to establish the consensus first? I reverted your edit ([1]), so according to WP:BRD, you should have discuss the issue with other editors. Instead, you just inserted it again. Vanjagenije (talk) 10:43, 14 April 2017 (UTC)

Well, I thought you were not content with the short content in the first introduction, so I added some more in order to make it more relevant to have an infoxobox. I don't know if there is any consensus against an infobox either. Why would that be? Chicbyaccident (talk) 10:48, 14 April 2017 (UTC)
Because it's useless, and also, it is potentially controversial. Eastern Orthodox Church does not see itself as a "Christian denomination", but as the one true Christian Church. It's also full of misleading data. Eastern Orthodox church does not have "headquarters", nor does it have an "official website". It is composed of several autocephalous churches each with it's own headquarters and web sites. Vanjagenije (talk) 10:57, 14 April 2017 (UTC)
Well, there are more than a couple of others such with equivalent pretentions, yet similarly being deemed "denomination" by Wikipedia category tree etc. Feel free to improve! Chicbyaccident (talk) 11:09, 14 April 2017 (UTC)
I agree with @Chicbyaccident:, I don't see any problems with the infobox.--Jobas (talk) 12:36, 14 April 2017 (UTC)
I don't see any problems with the infobox either, but I also don't see any purpose for the infobox. It adds nothing to the article. All the information in the infobox is already present in the article, and most of it is in the introduction, too. So, why add an infobox that will just clutter the screen and make the article harder to read on small screens? I am currently against it. Ohff (talk) 06:34, 17 April 2017 (UTC)
Basically all major Christian denominations keep an infobox. If you are against the system of infoboxes on a general level, which your argumentation seems to indicate, then I would raise that question to a more general level. Chicbyaccident (talk) 09:53, 17 April 2017 (UTC)
I see what you mean, and I am normally an advocate of keeping things consistent across Wikipedia, but as you know, there is no place where I could raise the question at a more general level. Trying to get something changed across multiple pages at the same time is next to impossible, as we have seen here every time someone tries to get the same consistent naming policy used for this page and for Catholic Church. Every page has its own group of regular editors and therefore its own consensus. There is no place where a general consensus was ever formed about how to organize pages on major Christian denominations. So, just because the editors over at Anglican Communion or Lutheran World Federation or Catholic Church believe that an infobox is useful, that does not mean we have to follow their lead. I do not feel so strongly against infoboxes that I would go and try to persuade the editors of those other articles to change their long-standing consensus. But over here, we do not have a consensus in favour of an infobox right now, and I am against forming one, for the reasons I stated. Ohff (talk) 04:07, 18 April 2017 (UTC)

I also generally think that sidebar templates with a list of related articles are better than infoboxes. I've been wanting to create separate and greatly improved sidebars for the Eastern Orthodox Church and Oriental Orthodoxy for some time, but this project is still only partially finished in my sandbox. I wish I had more time to devote to it. Ohff (talk) 04:27, 18 April 2017 (UTC)

The argument that "All the information in the infobox is already present in the article, and most of it is in the introduction, too" is not satisfying argument against an infobox, since these are precisely the conditions that infoboxes are supposed to follow. Neither is clutting your screen - meaning a subjective aesthetical note - a satisfying argument. Nor is the presence of sidebars disqualifying that of infoboxes, especially not in longer arricles such as this one. If you wish to convince against the use of infobox here, you would have to bring more arguments, please. Chicbyaccident (talk) 07:21, 18 April 2017 (UTC)
Ok. Here is my line of thinking: What is the general purpose of an infobox? Presumably, it is to present a very concise bullet-point list of the main information about the subject of the article. Therefore, infoboxes are appropriate for articles whose main points can be presented as a list of numbers or names. For example, articles on military battles always have infoboxes, and that is very useful, because the main information about a battle is: who fought, who won, who the commanders were, and how many people died on each side. That is a list of names and numbers. Perfect for an infobox. With religious institutions, on the other hand, names and numbers are a much smaller part of the story. The main information about a religious denomination is not how many members it has or who its current leaders are, but rather the beliefs and practices and history of that religious group. And these are not things that can be summarized in an infobox. Therefore, an infobox is much less useful, and perhaps even useless.
I know that this is an argument against infoboxes for religious denominations in general, and not just for the EOC in particular. As I said, I think all religious denomination articles should probably remove their infoboxes, but I just don't feel strongly enough about this (and I don't have enough time) to go around trying to get consensus everywhere for removing them.
But I also wanted to ask, what are your arguments for adding an infobox? So far, the only argument you have made is that other religious denominations have infoboxes. Is that really a stronger argument than, for example, my argument about cluttering the screen? Both of these are basically aesthetic arguments (arguments about whether an infobox would make the article look better or worse). Ohff (talk) 19:19, 18 April 2017 (UTC)
No, it's simply following a general consensus on a variation of how information is presented in extended articles. Anyway, I guess someone else will contribute to this discussion later. So far, I guess you'll have your way with having this article on a Christian denomination exceptionately free of infobox for the time being. Chicbyaccident (talk) 06:50, 24 April 2017 (UTC)
this is not a good argument at all. it is not "useless" it provides information that is quite useful. As for You or Eastern Orthodox practitioners beliving it is "the" one true Christian Church and not a denomination, nearly every Christian Church makes this claim. Certainly the Catholic Church does and many Protestants view their churches as "restoring" the one true church. None of those presents a strong argument for deleting the infobox if they are generally consistent across the orher Christian church articles. deleting the infobox because you believe the Eastern Orthodox Church is "correct" is the antithesis of an encyclopaedic purpose. Consistency across the various Christianity pages makes much more sense. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 172.76.66.163 (talk) 02:48, 19 August 2017 (UTC)

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Catholic Church naming conventions RfCEdit

There is currently an RfC at Wikipedia_talk:Naming_conventions_(Catholic_Church)#RfC:_should_this_page_be_made_a_naming_convention that may be of interest. Gaia Octavia Agrippa Talk 23:38, 3 October 2017 (UTC)

Legal TraditionsEdit

A new section had been added in a pair of revisions, the latter being https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Eastern_Orthodox_Church&oldid=810705982#Legal_Traditions but they were subsequently reverted "16 November 2017‎ Dr.K." with the Edit summary "(Reverted 2 edits by Gturnergilbert (talk): Looks like POV/OR. (TW★TW))".

The additions were well referenced and, IMHO, very accurate and pertinent. The reversion strikes me as quite flippant as I see no "POV" issues with the additions.

I bring this to the talk page, however, to avoid an editing war and to seek the opinions of multiple contributors. Vincent J. Lipsio (talk) 12:56, 19 November 2017 (UTC)

I have briefly checked these revisions and unfortunately certain WP:NPOV issues came to my notice. These issues are of a political nature and not really religious and should not be accepted to the article, as they are not serving the scope and purpose of this article which is to inform the readers about the Eastern Orthodox Church, its norms and traditions. The most striking issue for me is the following text (copy-pasting it here): the most recent of which was the Pan-Orthodox Council held in Crete in 2016. The exact binding status of the decisions reached at this council is currently debated, with the non-attending churches denying its Pan-Orthodoxy. which clearly is a blatant Russian WP:POV, and this is not hard, for those who are familiar the ecclesiastical affairs and intriques of the last decades between Russian Orthodox Church and the Ecumenical Patriarchate of Constantinople, to idendify it. I haven't checked thoroughly the entire revisions but clearly they can not be restored wihtout the necessary NPOV rewording and omission of the Russian bias, no matter how well-sourced they are. --SILENTRESIDENT 17:40, 19 November 2017 (UTC)
(edit conflict) The additions were well referenced and, IMHO, very accurate and pertinent. The reversion strikes me as quite flippant as I see no "POV" issues with the additions.: Lol, I don't know what it is with religious articles that brings all kinds of aggressive statements and silly accusations. I remind you of WP:CIVIL and WP:NPA. You should try to WP:AGF more and have more respect for the judgement of longstanding and good faith editors, instead of making such flippant accusations against me.
Now let me address your ill-conceived remarks. This is the edit in dispute under the title "Legal Traditions":

The Eastern Orthodox Church follows a legal system involving the use of the Canons, compiled within the Pedalion (from the Greek πηδάλιον, "rudder").[1] The Pedalion is a collection of compiled ecclesiastical laws regulating such things as manner of ordination of bishops, ritual purity, and marriage customs within the church. These canons are derived from rulings made by the Church Fathers, traditions considered to be handed down from the Apostles, and decisions made at ecumenical councils, in accordance with the Church's view of itself as a patristic and conciliar church.[2][3] Only members of the church are considered capable of exegesis and legal interpretation due to the perceived clarity given by communion with the Holy Spirit.[4] Traditionally, these laws are interpreted by bishops according to the principles of Akribeia and Oikonomia.[5] The Pedalion is organized such that laws listed earlier supersede laws listed later, with the exception of the Canons of the Holy Apostles, which, while frequently listed first, are not viewed with any particular legal primacy. Unlike in the Catholic Church, where the Pope maintains a high level of legal authority, the Ecumenical Patriarch is considered to be first among equals, and as such is not able to make legal changes without the agreement of all Orthodox bishops. Changes to the Church Laws are determined via councils or synods, the most recent of which was the Pan-Orthodox Council held in Crete in 2016. The exact binding status of the decisions reached at this council is currently debated, with the non-attending churches denying its Pan-Orthodoxy.[6] While these legal traditions regulate only the Church and have no binding authority over any state in which the church operates, the Eastern Orthodox legal system does occasionally come into a sort of conflict with the secular world. To deal with this, certain laws have included caveats holding temporal law over church law, such as with regard to age of consent.[7] Because of the national nature of the autocephalous and autonomous churches, as well as the Ecumenical Patriarchate itself, national governments have often exerted a significant amount of influence over the church - notably, the Soviet Union maintained an influence in the church during its time, while the modern Turkish state has mandated that the Ecumenical Patriarch be a Turkish citizen, given their control over Istanbul (Constantinople).[8] Occasionally, disputes between nations will affect national churches and force certain legal ramifications - for example, the Georgian Orthodox Church was re-granted autocephaly following the end of the Soviet Union and its national return to independence. Attempts at changing the Canons have emerged both from within the clergy as well as the laity, often in response to laws that are seen to be outdated or unenforced. Challenges have arisen in the United States regarding the Orthodox ban on married bishops, with a coalition of laity and clergy pushing for them to be allowed.[9] Other laws that have been critiqued include questions of women's ritual purity. One prominent voice advocating for re-evaluation of such laws is Sr. Dr. Vassa Larin, a prominent member of the Russian Orthodox Church Outside of Russia.[10] Discussions have also emerged over the legality within the Church of gay marriage.[11]

Let's just start with the title of the section: "Legal Traditions". There is no such thing as "Legal Traditions of the Eastern Orthodox Church". There may be Canonical tradition, but "legal tradition" is not used. The section title is already POV.
The text in dispute states: While these legal traditions regulate only the Church and have no binding authority over any state in which the church operates, the Eastern Orthodox legal system does occasionally come into a sort of conflict with the secular world.
That's automatically POV, because, this statement has nothing to do with the "legal traditions" of the EOC, but rather it tries to demonstrate that other entities, for their own political purposes, do not accept the canon law and the religious independence of the EOC. This is obviously heavy-handed, politically-driven, POV not in any way related to the canon traditions of the EOC. Observe also the WP:WEASEL construction of the statement: into a sort of conflict. Also the term "Eastern Orthodox legal system" is non-existent. There is no such thing. Just try to Google "Eastern Orthodox legal system". There are no results. If that's not OR/POV, let me know what is.
It gets worse. Because of the national nature of the autocephalous and autonomous churches, as well as the Ecumenical Patriarchate itself, national governments have often exerted a significant amount of influence over the church - notably, the Soviet Union maintained an influence in the church during its time, while the modern Turkish state has mandated that the Ecumenical Patriarch be a Turkish citizen, given their control over Istanbul (Constantinople). This paragraph has nothing to do with the legal traditions of the church but rather it attempts to describe the modern political interference against the EOC. I remind you that this is the article about the EOC, not the modern political reception of its canon law, such as it is. The second sentence about Turkey is just an attempt to advertise, yet again, that the Ecumenical Patriarch's status has faced political opposition in Turkey. This political POV is irrelevant to both the EOC article and the article about the Patriarch.
The exact binding status of the decisions reached at this council is currently debated, with the non-attending churches denying its Pan-Orthodoxy. Just the expression "...is currently debated" indicates the WP:RECENTISM problem of that edit, which makes a mockery out of the purported purpose of the edit that is supposed to detail the tradition of the canon law of the EOC, not the latest news about the Church.
The last paragraph: Challenges have arisen in the United States regarding the Orthodox ban on married bishops, with a coalition of laity and clergy pushing for them to be allowed.[9] Other laws that have been critiqued include questions of women's ritual purity. One prominent voice advocating for re-evaluation of such laws is Sr. Dr. Vassa Larin, a prominent member of the Russian Orthodox Church Outside of Russia.[10] Discussions have also emerged over the legality within the Church of gay marriage.[11] is just WP:RECENTISM. These are topics that have arisen recently and they are not part of the canon law of the EOC. Also this minute detail is WP:UNDUE for this article which is about the EOC, not its canon law.
In conclusion, this huge POV dump of non-existent terminology, UNDUEWEIGHT, RECENTISM, and political POV has no place in this article, except if drastically reduced and focused on the canon law of the EOC. In addition, there is no article about the Canon law of the Eastern Orthodox Church, although there is about the Canon law of the Catholic Church. I think the reason for that is, that the canon law of the EOC is less defined than that of the CC, a fact that makes dumping all this POV stuff into this specialist article all the more glaring. Dr. K. 18:40, 19 November 2017 (UTC)

References

  1. ^ McGuckin, Johnathan A. The Orthodox Church: An Introduction to its History, Doctrine, and Spiritual Culture. Oxford: Blackwell Publishing, 2008. Page 115.
  2. ^ The Pedalion. Accessed from The Rudder Download
  3. ^ McGuckin, Johnathan A. The Orthodox Church: An Introduction to its History, Doctrine, and Spiritual Culture. Oxford: Blackwell Publishing, 2008. Pages 110-111.
  4. ^ McGuckin, Johnathan A. The Orthodox Church: An Introduction to its History, Doctrine, and Spiritual Culture. Oxford: Blackwell Publishing, 2008. Pages 106-107.
  5. ^ McGuckin, Johnathan A. The Orthodox Church: An Introduction to its History, Doctrine, and Spiritual Culture. Oxford: Blackwell Publishing, 2008. Page 115.
  6. ^ Mihail Matakiev. The Pan-Orthodox Council in Crete (2016) and Russia (In the Context of the Hybrid War. Accessed from: http://bulgariaanalytica.org/en/2016/12/29/%D0%B2%D1%81%D0%B5%D0%BF%D1%80%D0%B0%D0%B2%D0%BE%D1%81%D0%BB%D0%B0%D0%B2%D0%BD%D0%B8%D1%8F%D1%82-%D1%81%D1%8A%D0%B1%D0%BE%D1%80-%D0%B8-%D1%80%D1%83%D1%81%D0%B8%D1%8F-%D0%B2-%D0%BA%D0%BE%D0%BD%D1%82/
  7. ^ The Sacrament of Marriage and its Impediments. Accessed from: https://www.holycouncil.org/-/marriage
  8. ^ Psomiades, Harry J. Soviet Russia and the Orthodox Church in the Middle East. Middle East Journal Vol. 11, No. 4 (Autumn, 1957), pp. 371-381
  9. ^ Steinfels, Peter. “Greek Orthodox Group Backs Married Bishop.” The New York Times, 14 July 1990.
  10. ^ Larin, Vassa. “What is Ritual Impurity and Why?” St. Vladimir’s Theological Quarterly #52 (3-4), 2008. 275-292. Accessed from http://www.pravmir.com/article_660.html#_ftn1.
  11. ^ The Sacrament of Marriage and its Impediments. Accessed from: https://www.holycouncil.org/-/marriage
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