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Talk:Eastern Orthodox Church

Former featured article candidate Eastern Orthodox Church is a former featured article candidate. Please view the links under Article milestones below to see why the nomination failed. For older candidates, please check the archive.
December 6, 2004 Featured article candidate Not promoted
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InfoboxEdit

@Chicbyaccident: This article does not need an infobox (neither does the Oriental Orthodoxy). Why don't you try to establish the consensus first? I reverted your edit ([1]), so according to WP:BRD, you should have discuss the issue with other editors. Instead, you just inserted it again. Vanjagenije (talk) 10:43, 14 April 2017 (UTC)

Well, I thought you were not content with the short content in the first introduction, so I added some more in order to make it more relevant to have an infoxobox. I don't know if there is any consensus against an infobox either. Why would that be? Chicbyaccident (talk) 10:48, 14 April 2017 (UTC)
Because it's useless, and also, it is potentially controversial. Eastern Orthodox Church does not see itself as a "Christian denomination", but as the one true Christian Church. It's also full of misleading data. Eastern Orthodox church does not have "headquarters", nor does it have an "official website". It is composed of several autocephalous churches each with it's own headquarters and web sites. Vanjagenije (talk) 10:57, 14 April 2017 (UTC)
Well, there are more than a couple of others such with equivalent pretentions, yet similarly being deemed "denomination" by Wikipedia category tree etc. Feel free to improve! Chicbyaccident (talk) 11:09, 14 April 2017 (UTC)
I agree with @Chicbyaccident:, I don't see any problems with the infobox.--Jobas (talk) 12:36, 14 April 2017 (UTC)
I don't see any problems with the infobox either, but I also don't see any purpose for the infobox. It adds nothing to the article. All the information in the infobox is already present in the article, and most of it is in the introduction, too. So, why add an infobox that will just clutter the screen and make the article harder to read on small screens? I am currently against it. Ohff (talk) 06:34, 17 April 2017 (UTC)
Basically all major Christian denominations keep an infobox. If you are against the system of infoboxes on a general level, which your argumentation seems to indicate, then I would raise that question to a more general level. Chicbyaccident (talk) 09:53, 17 April 2017 (UTC)
I see what you mean, and I am normally an advocate of keeping things consistent across Wikipedia, but as you know, there is no place where I could raise the question at a more general level. Trying to get something changed across multiple pages at the same time is next to impossible, as we have seen here every time someone tries to get the same consistent naming policy used for this page and for Catholic Church. Every page has its own group of regular editors and therefore its own consensus. There is no place where a general consensus was ever formed about how to organize pages on major Christian denominations. So, just because the editors over at Anglican Communion or Lutheran World Federation or Catholic Church believe that an infobox is useful, that does not mean we have to follow their lead. I do not feel so strongly against infoboxes that I would go and try to persuade the editors of those other articles to change their long-standing consensus. But over here, we do not have a consensus in favour of an infobox right now, and I am against forming one, for the reasons I stated. Ohff (talk) 04:07, 18 April 2017 (UTC)

I also generally think that sidebar templates with a list of related articles are better than infoboxes. I've been wanting to create separate and greatly improved sidebars for the Eastern Orthodox Church and Oriental Orthodoxy for some time, but this project is still only partially finished in my sandbox. I wish I had more time to devote to it. Ohff (talk) 04:27, 18 April 2017 (UTC)

The argument that "All the information in the infobox is already present in the article, and most of it is in the introduction, too" is not satisfying argument against an infobox, since these are precisely the conditions that infoboxes are supposed to follow. Neither is clutting your screen - meaning a subjective aesthetical note - a satisfying argument. Nor is the presence of sidebars disqualifying that of infoboxes, especially not in longer arricles such as this one. If you wish to convince against the use of infobox here, you would have to bring more arguments, please. Chicbyaccident (talk) 07:21, 18 April 2017 (UTC)
Ok. Here is my line of thinking: What is the general purpose of an infobox? Presumably, it is to present a very concise bullet-point list of the main information about the subject of the article. Therefore, infoboxes are appropriate for articles whose main points can be presented as a list of numbers or names. For example, articles on military battles always have infoboxes, and that is very useful, because the main information about a battle is: who fought, who won, who the commanders were, and how many people died on each side. That is a list of names and numbers. Perfect for an infobox. With religious institutions, on the other hand, names and numbers are a much smaller part of the story. The main information about a religious denomination is not how many members it has or who its current leaders are, but rather the beliefs and practices and history of that religious group. And these are not things that can be summarized in an infobox. Therefore, an infobox is much less useful, and perhaps even useless.
I know that this is an argument against infoboxes for religious denominations in general, and not just for the EOC in particular. As I said, I think all religious denomination articles should probably remove their infoboxes, but I just don't feel strongly enough about this (and I don't have enough time) to go around trying to get consensus everywhere for removing them.
But I also wanted to ask, what are your arguments for adding an infobox? So far, the only argument you have made is that other religious denominations have infoboxes. Is that really a stronger argument than, for example, my argument about cluttering the screen? Both of these are basically aesthetic arguments (arguments about whether an infobox would make the article look better or worse). Ohff (talk) 19:19, 18 April 2017 (UTC)
No, it's simply following a general consensus on a variation of how information is presented in extended articles. Anyway, I guess someone else will contribute to this discussion later. So far, I guess you'll have your way with having this article on a Christian denomination exceptionately free of infobox for the time being. Chicbyaccident (talk) 06:50, 24 April 2017 (UTC)
this is not a good argument at all. it is not "useless" it provides information that is quite useful. As for You or Eastern Orthodox practitioners beliving it is "the" one true Christian Church and not a denomination, nearly every Christian Church makes this claim. Certainly the Catholic Church does and many Protestants view their churches as "restoring" the one true church. None of those presents a strong argument for deleting the infobox if they are generally consistent across the orher Christian church articles. deleting the infobox because you believe the Eastern Orthodox Church is "correct" is the antithesis of an encyclopaedic purpose. Consistency across the various Christianity pages makes much more sense. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 172.76.66.163 (talk) 02:48, 19 August 2017 (UTC)

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External links modifiedEdit

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Catholic Church naming conventions RfCEdit

There is currently an RfC at Wikipedia_talk:Naming_conventions_(Catholic_Church)#RfC:_should_this_page_be_made_a_naming_convention that may be of interest. Gaia Octavia Agrippa Talk 23:38, 3 October 2017 (UTC)

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