Talk:Eastern Orthodox Church
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A new section had been added in a pair of revisions, the latter being https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Eastern_Orthodox_Church&oldid=810705982#Legal_Traditions but they were subsequently reverted "16 November 2017 Dr.K." with the Edit summary "(Reverted 2 edits by Gturnergilbert (talk): Looks like POV/OR. (TW★TW))".
The additions were well referenced and, IMHO, very accurate and pertinent. The reversion strikes me as quite flippant as I see no "POV" issues with the additions.
- I have briefly checked these revisions and unfortunately certain WP:NPOV issues came to my notice. These issues are of a political nature and not really religious and should not be accepted to the article, as they are not serving the scope and purpose of this article which is to inform the readers about the Eastern Orthodox Church, its norms and traditions. The most striking issue for me is the following text (copy-pasting it here): the most recent of which was the Pan-Orthodox Council held in Crete in 2016. The exact binding status of the decisions reached at this council is currently debated, with the non-attending churches denying its Pan-Orthodoxy. which clearly is a blatant Russian WP:POV, and this is not hard, for those who are familiar the ecclesiastical affairs and intriques of the last decades between Russian Orthodox Church and the Ecumenical Patriarchate of Constantinople, to idendify it. I haven't checked thoroughly the entire revisions but clearly they can not be restored wihtout the necessary NPOV rewording and omission of the Russian bias, no matter how well-sourced they are. --❤ SILENTRESIDENT ❤ 17:40, 19 November 2017 (UTC)
- (edit conflict) The additions were well referenced and, IMHO, very accurate and pertinent. The reversion strikes me as quite flippant as I see no "POV" issues with the additions.: Lol, I don't know what it is with religious articles that brings all kinds of aggressive statements and silly accusations. I remind you of WP:CIVIL and WP:NPA. You should try to WP:AGF more and have more respect for the judgement of longstanding and good faith editors, instead of making such flippant accusations against me.
- Now let me address your ill-conceived remarks. This is the edit in dispute under the title "Legal Traditions":
The Eastern Orthodox Church follows a legal system involving the use of the Canons, compiled within the Pedalion (from the Greek πηδάλιον, "rudder"). The Pedalion is a collection of compiled ecclesiastical laws regulating such things as manner of ordination of bishops, ritual purity, and marriage customs within the church. These canons are derived from rulings made by the Church Fathers, traditions considered to be handed down from the Apostles, and decisions made at ecumenical councils, in accordance with the Church's view of itself as a patristic and conciliar church. Only members of the church are considered capable of exegesis and legal interpretation due to the perceived clarity given by communion with the Holy Spirit. Traditionally, these laws are interpreted by bishops according to the principles of Akribeia and Oikonomia. The Pedalion is organized such that laws listed earlier supersede laws listed later, with the exception of the Canons of the Holy Apostles, which, while frequently listed first, are not viewed with any particular legal primacy. Unlike in the Catholic Church, where the Pope maintains a high level of legal authority, the Ecumenical Patriarch is considered to be first among equals, and as such is not able to make legal changes without the agreement of all Orthodox bishops. Changes to the Church Laws are determined via councils or synods, the most recent of which was the Pan-Orthodox Council held in Crete in 2016. The exact binding status of the decisions reached at this council is currently debated, with the non-attending churches denying its Pan-Orthodoxy. While these legal traditions regulate only the Church and have no binding authority over any state in which the church operates, the Eastern Orthodox legal system does occasionally come into a sort of conflict with the secular world. To deal with this, certain laws have included caveats holding temporal law over church law, such as with regard to age of consent. Because of the national nature of the autocephalous and autonomous churches, as well as the Ecumenical Patriarchate itself, national governments have often exerted a significant amount of influence over the church - notably, the Soviet Union maintained an influence in the church during its time, while the modern Turkish state has mandated that the Ecumenical Patriarch be a Turkish citizen, given their control over Istanbul (Constantinople). Occasionally, disputes between nations will affect national churches and force certain legal ramifications - for example, the Georgian Orthodox Church was re-granted autocephaly following the end of the Soviet Union and its national return to independence. Attempts at changing the Canons have emerged both from within the clergy as well as the laity, often in response to laws that are seen to be outdated or unenforced. Challenges have arisen in the United States regarding the Orthodox ban on married bishops, with a coalition of laity and clergy pushing for them to be allowed. Other laws that have been critiqued include questions of women's ritual purity. One prominent voice advocating for re-evaluation of such laws is Sr. Dr. Vassa Larin, a prominent member of the Russian Orthodox Church Outside of Russia. Discussions have also emerged over the legality within the Church of gay marriage.
- Let's just start with the title of the section: "Legal Traditions". There is no such thing as "Legal Traditions of the Eastern Orthodox Church". There may be Canonical tradition, but "legal tradition" is not used. The section title is already POV.
- The text in dispute states:
While these legal traditions regulate only the Church and have no binding authority over any state in which the church operates, the Eastern Orthodox legal system does occasionally come into a sort of conflict with the secular world.
- That's automatically POV, because, this statement has nothing to do with the "legal traditions" of the EOC, but rather it tries to demonstrate that other entities, for their own political purposes, do not accept the canon law and the religious independence of the EOC. This is obviously heavy-handed, politically-driven, POV not in any way related to the canon traditions of the EOC. Observe also the WP:WEASEL construction of the statement: into a sort of conflict. Also the term "Eastern Orthodox legal system" is non-existent. There is no such thing. Just try to Google "Eastern Orthodox legal system". There are no results. If that's not OR/POV, let me know what is.
- It gets worse. Because of the national nature of the autocephalous and autonomous churches, as well as the Ecumenical Patriarchate itself, national governments have often exerted a significant amount of influence over the church - notably, the Soviet Union maintained an influence in the church during its time, while the modern Turkish state has mandated that the Ecumenical Patriarch be a Turkish citizen, given their control over Istanbul (Constantinople). This paragraph has nothing to do with the legal traditions of the church but rather it attempts to describe the modern political interference against the EOC. I remind you that this is the article about the EOC, not the modern political reception of its canon law, such as it is. The second sentence about Turkey is just an attempt to advertise, yet again, that the Ecumenical Patriarch's status has faced political opposition in Turkey. This political POV is irrelevant to both the EOC article and the article about the Patriarch.
- The exact binding status of the decisions reached at this council is currently debated, with the non-attending churches denying its Pan-Orthodoxy. Just the expression "...is currently debated" indicates the WP:RECENTISM problem of that edit, which makes a mockery out of the purported purpose of the edit that is supposed to detail the tradition of the canon law of the EOC, not the latest news about the Church.
- The last paragraph: Challenges have arisen in the United States regarding the Orthodox ban on married bishops, with a coalition of laity and clergy pushing for them to be allowed. Other laws that have been critiqued include questions of women's ritual purity. One prominent voice advocating for re-evaluation of such laws is Sr. Dr. Vassa Larin, a prominent member of the Russian Orthodox Church Outside of Russia. Discussions have also emerged over the legality within the Church of gay marriage. is just WP:RECENTISM. These are topics that have arisen recently and they are not part of the canon law of the EOC. Also this minute detail is WP:UNDUE for this article which is about the EOC, not its canon law.
- In conclusion, this huge POV dump of non-existent terminology, UNDUEWEIGHT, RECENTISM, and political POV has no place in this article, except if drastically reduced and focused on the canon law of the EOC. In addition, there is no article about the Canon law of the Eastern Orthodox Church, although there is about the Canon law of the Catholic Church. I think the reason for that is, that the canon law of the EOC is less defined than that of the CC, a fact that makes dumping all this POV stuff into this specialist article all the more glaring. Dr. K. 18:40, 19 November 2017 (UTC)
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Tag recently added, "This article may be too long..."Edit
I suggest moving to Byzantine Rite these sections:
4 Worship 5 Traditions 6 Holy mysteries (sacraments)
The are big gaps in "Byzantine Rite", e.g., "This section is empty" for "Sacraments and other services performed as needed". If this should result in Byzantine Rite becoming too long, I have ideas of how to break it up also. Vincent J. Lipsio (talk) 00:24, 20 January 2018 (UTC)
Condensing the articleEdit
I condensed the sections about Fasting and Marriage. They were too long and too detailed, although we have separate article on both topics. According to WP:SUBARTICLE, this article should just summarize those topics. I also removed many images (mainly indiscriminate collections of images grouped in galleries). Such galleries just make the article too long but do not help in understanding of the article. Readability should not be sacrificed for aesthetics. Vanjagenije (talk) 11:02, 20 January 2018 (UTC)