Talk:Clint Hocking/GA1

GA Review

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Reviewer: OceanHok (talk · contribs) 02:19, 27 March 2020 (UTC)

I requested this article at WP:VG/R before. Nice work! OceanHok (talk) 02:19, 27 March 2020 (UTC)

Thank you. When I saw this request, after looking at the amount of coverage online I was suprised the article was not made earlier. Regards  Spy-cicle💥  ^Talk? 19:27, 31 March 2020 (UTC)

• 2005's Tom Clancy's Splinter Cell: Chaos Theory, which was critically acclaimed and a commercial success. - "which was both a critical and commercial success" seems to flow better

   Done

• due to him being too comfortable and wanting a new challenge - being too comfortable to what?

   Done Clarified to "due to him being too comfortable at the studio"

• The second paragraph in the lead is a bit clunky. Just mentioned he briefly worked at Amazon, Valve and LucasArts before returning to Ubisoft for Watch Dogs Legion.

  Not really sure what to change here since that is a summary of his later career though it does include when he coined ludonarrative dissonance and writing for Edge. Regards  Spy-cicle💥  ^Talk? 16:58, 23 April 2020 (UTC)

I think the first four sentences of this paragraph can be simplified into one. His stint in Amazon/Valve/LucasArts isn't that significant given that he did not release a single game during this period.

 Done Condensed to "Between 2010 and 2015, Hocking joined LucasArts, Valve, and Amazon Game Studios in various senior roles, in the United States. Throughout this period, he did not release any new games and in August 2015 returned to to Ubisoft, this time at their Toronto studio."

• this time at their Toronto studio - which studio he worked at in the first time? Montreal? Quebec? Good to mention the year he returned to Ubi as well.

  Is this referring to the lead or Carrer section? In both cases, I established that he worked at the Montreal studio before. Regards  Spy-cicle💥  ^Talk? 16:58, 23 April 2020 (UTC)

Sorry, I missed that! Thanks!

• There is way too much references. Remove some of them per WP:CITEKILL

  I condensed the large number of references in the ludonarrative dissonance section to a note since a fair number of refs are needed to demonstrate a the term has been "widely used" and removed some other refs.  Spy-cicle💥  ^Talk? 16:58, 23 April 2020 (UTC)

• During the two year development, Hocking was working 80 hours a week - During the game's two-year development.

   Done

• This high-level of working caused him - "high-level of working" seems strange. Maybe "huge workload" instead?

   Done Changed to "large workload"  Spy-cicle💥  ^Talk? 16:58, 23 April 2020 (UTC)

• Information on Far Cry 2 is a bit lacking. Maybe a bit more information on the game itself since you mention the game breaks "many conventions of its genre".

  I added some more infomation stating it is a first-person shooter featuring an open world.

But what conventions does the game break though? What is his part in envisioning all these genre-breaking elements? I don't quite remember Far Cry 2 now but I remember it has like, malaria infections and stuff? Maybe a bit more on the "unconventional" gameplay elements?

 Done Elaborated on various polarizing gameplay elements in Far Cry 2: "Hocking and critics noted some of its reception was polarizing, which he attributed to the game breaking many conventions of the shooter and open world genre. Some gameplay elements, which immersed the player, critics found polarizing. This included when the player's firearm would jam, a map being a crumpled piece of paper in the player character's hands as opposed to one found within a menu, and malaria which the player character can get throughout the game and needs to treated by medicine from civilians otherwise the player character will die."

• Hocking joined LucasArts as the creative director on an unannounced project being worked on in their San Francisco, United States studio - Don't really need to mention that SF is in US. "Hocking joined LucasArts in SF as the creative director on an unannounced project" seems to flow a bit better

   Done

• It was suspected he was working on the unannounced Left 4 Dead 3 during his eighteen months at the company - This is WP:RUMOR.

   Done Removed

• In April of the same year, Hocking, along with Kim Swift, joined Amazon Game Studios, also based in Seattle - along with Kim Swift doesn't sound necessary. They are not working together on the same project, right? Swift has previously worked on Valve's Portal, Left 4 Dead, and its sequel Left 4 Dead 2. isn't relevent as well.

  Removed, not stated if they worked on the same project. But they were both hired as senior game designers [1].  Spy-cicle💥  ^Talk? 16:58, 23 April 2020 (UTC)

• He said he enjoyed working with new people but we wanted to start working on something that people will get to play.[51] He stated, "I realized I had not shipped a game in seven years" - we => he. "He said he enjoyed working with new people but we wanted to start working on something that people will get to play, having realized that he has not shipped a game in seven years" seems to flow a bit better.

   Done Merged the two sentences.

• Hocking also expressed difficulties in obtaining a green card and being on his third visa whilst in the United States, he wanted to return to Canada - "he wanted to return to Canada" because of problems with the green card. Is there a casual relationship? It is unclear.

   Done Clarified to "...which was another reason he wanted to return to Canada"  Spy-cicle💥  ^Talk? 16:58, 23 April 2020 (UTC)

• He was excited to return to Ubisoft and he stated: "I know most of the people who were involved in founding the studio personally, and almost all of them are still here" - You should paraphrase this.

  I see your point about parapharsing. I decided to paraphase a part earlier in paragraph: "I realized I had not shipped a game in seven years" to "Hocking realized that he had not released a game in seven years". Since that was a rather uninteresting quote as opposed to the Hocking knowing his former co-workers. Regards  Spy-cicle💥  ^Talk? 16:58, 23 April 2020 (UTC)

• You don't really need the notes. They are unnecessary and didn't add much even as an appendix.

   Done Removed.

It would be great if you copyedit the article one more time. I would look at the sources after you fix the WP:CITEKILL problem. Putting this on hold. OceanHok (talk) 10:51, 22 April 2020 (UTC)

@OceanHok:I have responsed to your comments above and looked over the article one more time c/e small parts. Regards  Spy-cicle💥  ^Talk? 16:59, 23 April 2020 (UTC)

Regarding the part about WP:CITEKILL, I don't think you need all these sources to establish that the ludonarrative dissonance term is commonly used. One or two sources that establish the term's significance is good enough. Normally, by the end of each sentence, usually 1 source should suffice. It is ok to have 2 sources, fairly uncommon to have 3, but having 4 is definitely excessive. For simple things like In January 2014, Hocking left Valve without releasing a game, having 1 source to support the statement is good enough already. OceanHok (talk) 04:19, 24 April 2020 (UTC)

@OceanHok:I have responsed to your comments above (condensed lead section about Amazon/Valve/LucasArts and expanded section on Far Cry 2 gameplay elements). Regarding WP:CITEKILL, we must take caution when quoting CITEKILL as it is a user essay not part of policy or MoS. I generally take the stance that more reliable sources being cited against a claim is better than less especially so on material relating to living persons. I do this becuase if a source becomes depreciated (or no longer generally reliable) I will not have to rework the whole article. Is there any part similiar to CITEKILL found in policies or relevant MOS found in the GA criteria? Regards  Spy-cicle💥  ^Talk? 20:59, 24 April 2020 (UTC)

MOS usually won't hold back a GA, but I think it will be way better if you try to limit the number of sources in your future nominations. Anyway, source 3 is a IGN wiki source and needs to be removed/replaced. Source 51, 55, and 56 are not listed as a RS and should be replaced/removed as well. OceanHok (talk) 11:56, 25 April 2020 (UTC)

@OceanHok: I have removed Source 51, 55, and 56. Source 3 from IGN seems to be a profile page. These are found are linked to in articles about the subject. For example an article by IGN on LittleBigPlanet ([2]) links to its profile page ([3]) as opposed to a wiki. It gives a summary in the About page and related news. I have also removed two more sources for CITEKILL, though is any part of CITEKILL in MOS? Regards  Spy-cicle💥  ^Talk? 14:46, 25 April 2020 (UTC)

I have gone ahead and removed it for failed verification. Anyway, beyond that, I think the article is in good shape. CITEKILL is MOS-ish, though MOS is never considered part of the GA guideline. Anyway, I think the article is in good shape, and I can pass this for GA. OceanHok (talk) 14:59, 25 April 2020 (UTC)

If you cannot view the site an archive can be seen here [4]. Regardless, thank you for the review and feedback. Regards  Spy-cicle💥  ^Talk? 15:14, 25 April 2020 (UTC)