Talk:Christian Zionism

Zionism-Israel.com being judged NOT WP:RS

FYI at Wikipedia:Reliable_sources/Noticeboard#zionism-israel.com_on_Zionist_history as of 1/1/09. CarolMooreDC (talk) 18:05, 1 January 2009 (UTC)

FYI after that discussion started someone must have rebooted the search engine because suddenly dozens of uses popped up and there were no more denials it was a reliable source, at least on a case by case basis. CarolMooreDC (talk) 16:01, 6 January 2009 (UTC)

Working on this article now and looking quickly at the page, I think they have an ax to grind in favoring some Xian Zionist groups over others and therefore are not a reliable source for this article. CarolMooreDC (talk) 22:29, 16 August 2009 (UTC)

Unreliable history presented as fact

The article Christian Zionism has failed to include 4 rather pertinent areas, or rather excluded those four areas to produce a POV article.

1. why no mention of the first any largest Christian Zionist movement....The Crusaders...a rather large and obvious gap in the article...
2. The Christian evangelical messianic movement for the redemption of the Holy land one aspect was the Templars. who ended up as a nasty bunch of racists who most certainly were not pro Jewish Zionism...not the nicest bunch of the evangelical messianic movement but probably the most well known...
3. And of course the [Franciscans] in the Holy Land who seek the redemption by settlement and evangelical conversion of the Holy land to Christianity...
4. The American Christian evangelicals as in the American colony of Jerusalem.

missing areas within the article...Ashley kennedy3 (talk) 04:57, 28 March 2009 (UTC)

This article should be moved in toto to Restoration of the Jews to the Holy Land where it more properly belongs...Ashley kennedy3 (talk) 05:04, 28 March 2009 (UTC)

I agree that that information should be included briefly in history - but only where a reliable source identifies them as "Christion Zionism." There doubtless is relevant material in Restoration of the Jews to the Holy Land and I'll check it out. However, there is no doubt this phrase is widely used and deserves its own article. CarolMooreDC (talk) 15:53, 14 August 2009 (UTC)

The Crusades had nothing to do with Christian Zionism, as they did not seek to establish a Jewish state in the Holy Land, but an explicitly (Western) Christian one. They would have opposed anything like the modern state of Israel because that state is not founded on Christianity. In addition the Crusades were not exclusively focused on the Holy Land either (the Reconquista of Spain, which unlike the Eastern crusades was ultimately successful, is also considered part of the Crusades). Most Christian Zionists thus despise the Crusaders and everything they stood for (Read, for example, what the Armstrongites, who were among the most prominent of the Christian Zionists, had to say on the subject); anti-Catholicism (many Christian Zionists including the Armstrongites, Hal Lindsey and Tim LaHaye are quite strongly anti-Catholic) plays a role as well since the Crusaders were Catholic and following the Pope's orders. LonelyBoy2012 (talk) 17:12, 5 November 2012 (UTC)

Newspaper exegesis

The article used the term newspaper exegesis to describe the methods used by Christian Zionists. This is an interesting term, since it accurately describes the unusual practices of several Protestant scholars, who are said to have a Bible in one hand and a newspaper in the other. ADM (talk) 20:41, 5 May 2009 (UTC)

What ever it is, it does not have a source in this article so I have changed it to something more generally descriptive of the contents. Not necessarily final or best option. CarolMooreDC (talk) 15:50, 14 August 2009 (UTC)

Source info or it may be removed

The box on top of this page reminds us: consider tagging or removing uncited/unciteable information. Over next week or two I'm gong to source things that I consider most easily sourceable and remove obvious WP:Original research. Also looks like a lot of duplication in the first two history sections that needs merging, including the English section. Plus a recent theological development section. Things that may or may not be true that are questionable, controversial or don't seem critical to the article and which no one else sources will be removed. Many but not all of those things I'll tag first as I go. So heads up! The always bold...CarolMooreDC (talk) 15:58, 14 August 2009 (UTC)

Christian Zionism in the United Kingdom‎

I think this article may be a lost cause - if anyone wants to try to fix it, please do, or it could redirect here. Dougweller (talk) 15:46, 15 August 2009 (UTC)

I was going to clean up this one and then see if there was anything of use additional there. Otherwise merging might be a good idea. Already cleaned up relevant entry on Israel lobby in the United Kingdom. CarolMooreDC (talk) 17:13, 15 August 2009 (UTC)

Ah, it's the same editor who created the CZ in the UK article that you are cleaning up afterwards. He still doesn't understand how to write and source an article. Thanks. Dougweller (talk) 17:18, 15 August 2009 (UTC)

Since you mentioned it, yes, it would help if he would thoroughly review WP:Policy. Including the one about discussing things in talk if you expect to have your questionable edits kept. :-) CarolMooreDC (talk) 17:56, 16 August 2009 (UTC)

Biblical reference not appr

"Many Christian Zionists believe that the people of Israel remain part of the chosen people of God, along with the "ingrafted" Gentile Christians[Romans 11:17-24] (dual-covenant theology)."

The citation of Romans 11:17-24 in and of itself is not a citation to dual-covenant theology. No citation outside of this Bible verse supports this view. In fact the verses 17-24 themselves make no reference to a dual covenant. Romans 11 uses the device of an olive tree. The Jews being grafted in as natural branches of the olive tree. There is a mention of a covenant in Romans 11:27. The article does not mention this verse either in the context of dual-covenant theology, nor does the article mention this verse explaining the meaning of this covenant.

69.246.19.173 (talk) 20:48, 16 September 2012 (UTC)

Glenn Beck

I don't know if he belongs in here at all, given that he is a Mormon and Mormonism is not universally considered to be part of Christianity (some Mormons and non-Mormons have recently begun describing that faith as the "fourth Abrahamic religion"). Perhaps a separate article on Mormon Zionism would be worthwhile? It could mention historical parallels with the Mormons' own history (i. e. between Utah and the State of Israel, fleeing from persecution, etc), as these have been discussed in the literature, of course. LonelyBoy2012 (talk) 06:22, 4 November 2012 (UTC)

Proposal to merge Christian Restorationism into Christian Zionism

The two articles overlap with all of the content of the Restorationism article included here already. The differentiation between the 19thC and 20thC movements is tenuous, and importantly was ignored in Nahum Sokolow's seminal 1919 work "History of Zionism", in which he writes:

"In reviewing the gradual evolution of the Zionist idea over such a wide field, I could not restrict the meaning of the term " Zionism " to the Zionist Movement and Organization of the present day. I had to go back to the beginning of this idea, and to extend the meaning of "Zionism" to all aspirations and efforts tending in the same direction."

Combining the two would turn two substandard articles into one good article.

Oncenawhile (talk) 11:32, 25 August 2013 (UTC)

This has been merged. Oncenawhile (talk) 19:03, 20 October 2013 (UTC)

David Lloyd George

There is no mention of David Lloyd George who according to himself was converted to Zionism by acetone. http://www.balfourproject.org/lloyd-george/ Wool Bridge (talk) 00:02, 3 November 2013 (UTC)

You may folloow that link, but you will find no mention of acetone. MrDemeanour (talk) 12:57, 19 May 2018 (UTC)

Hechler and many others not even mentioned

I am surprised by the paucity of information on William Hechler, the Blackstone memorial, Orde Wingate, given their considerable influence on Zionism and a number of other influential and important Christian Zionists. ‘When it came to mark the twenty-fifth anniversary of the death of Theodor Herzl, it was noted by the editors of the English-language memorial volume that William Hechler would prove “not only the first, but the most constant and the most indefatigable of Herzl’s followers”. . Cpsoper (talk) 08:56, 26 April 2014 (UTC)

Prominent non-dispensationalists added

Have added references to some prominent Protestant non-dispensationalists, before and after Darby.Cpsoper (talk) 08:56, 26 April 2014 (UTC) Have added Owen and Rutherford with short quotes too as prominent exemplars illustrative of widely held Puritan attitudes to the Jews and Restoration long before J N Darby.Cpsoper (talk) 19:55, 3 May 2014 (UTC)

Categories

An author has removed this page from the 'parent category' 'Zionism', this needs explanation before reverting. It is arguable that Christian Zionism is the parent of Zionism, at least according to the eminent secular Israeli historian Anita Shapira (ref in intro in Zionism page).Cpsoper (talk) 18:55, 18 July 2014 (UTC)

The author was me. For the removal, it doesn't really matter whether :Category:Christian Zionism is the parent OR the child category of :Category:Zionism. In both cases, it is redundant to classify this article in both categories, and I suppose that in both cases Christian Zionism would be the more appropriate category to classify this article into. Marcocapelle (talk) 20:26, 18 July 2014 (UTC)

Thanks, Marco, but please explain why redundant? There will be enquirers who look at this question from both angles - those interested in the question from a question of Jewish and national history, and others who consider the question as a matter of theology or church policy, not to say politics - both are important perspectives, and whilst intertwined and interdependent in a most unusual way for Jewish-Christian relations (I won't expand here now on this but this article and the one on Anti-Zionism outline why), also sufficiently distinct to justify the inclusion in both categories, in my view. If you perceive I'm wrong please explain why. BW.Cpsoper (talk) 22:58, 18 July 2014 (UTC)

Overstated importance of Christian Zionism in the United States?

The section titled "Recent political analysis and developments" contains many dubious statements about the importance of the movement in the U.S. I wouldn't deny these statements, if there were demographic studies or well-researched, unbiased literature to back them up:

In United States politics, Christian Zionism is important because it mobilises an important Republican constituency[citation needed]: fundamentalist and evangelical Protestants who support Israel.

How large is that specific constituency? It's not even clear that most fundamentalist Christians or evangelical Christians are Zionists.

Almost all of this section needs citation and reads like it was written by someone how would like to overstate the significance of Christian Zionism in the U.S., whatever the case may be. I am hesitant to remove it entirely, but what what is the alternative?

Zombiedeity (talk) 21:08, 4 August 2014 (UTC)

I agree it needs radical revision, to prune some rather overreaching assertions. Things are changing rapidly, many 'evangelical' bodies (not the same as fundamentalist in the US) are increasingly changing to a more hostile stance toward Israel, many of the PCA constituents and some (not all) amillennial teachers deny any Biblical role for Israel, Kim Riddlebarger, Hendriksen, Palmer Robertson, Gary Burge for example. There has also been significant representation by senior representatives of a number of large parachurch bodies: WEC, Langham PI, various Bible Societies and Missions at the Anti-Zionist Christ at the Checkpoint conference. There has been a blurring of the formerly sharp distinction with liberal churches in this as in many other areas. Cpsoper (talk) 20:34, 5 August 2014 (UTC)

It is wildly offensive and inaccurate to suggest that those who reject dispensationalism are "hostile toward Israel" or "liberal". Conservative Reformed Christians, Confessional Lutherans, and the entire span of Church history before 1830 held that the Christian Church is the Israel of God. Many Reformed, Lutheran, and even mainline support Israel for pragmatic reasons rather than theological reasons. And yes, conservative Reformed Christianity is growing, along with post/amillennialism and partial preterism. — Confession0791 ^talk 20:13, 26 December 2014 (UTC)

I apologize for the harsh response, but Covenant theology has been the historic position of the Christian church for centuries -- until relatively recently. Still many CT's support Israel for pragmatic reasons without the theological underpinnings associated with dispensationalism. —Confession0791 ^talk 03:06, 2 June 2022 (UTC)

Recent Anti-Zionist resolutions in the Anglican Church

Have added a short section on CoE's support for EAPPI, and subsequent mainstream UK Jewish reaction. Cpsoper (talk) 12:57, 28 September 2014 (UTC)

Citations for Proponents Section

I just added some citations for proponents of Christian Zionism, but as I added a Washington Post reference for Mick Huckabee, I was not entirely sure it would qualify. In the article it talks about Huckabee's position regarding Israel and while it positively infers he is, it doesn't explicitly call him a Christian Zionist. Given it is a bit controversial, should we create a standard by which someone can be considered a true proponent? Elmmapleoakpine (talk) 23:13, 2 December 2014 (UTC)

Tidying up

Along with some helpful changes this edit [1] has removed several categories, and many similar links without explanation or discussion. This is a rather broad brush just for a tidy up. Cpsoper (talk) 21:30, 1 February 2015 (UTC)

Please restore any Categories you feel are appropriate. Editor2020, Talk 03:02, 2 February 2015 (UTC)

I have done so for, again, BW. Cpsoper (talk) 02:24, 28 February 2015 (UTC)

Unexpected Criticism

By evangelical Christians in the US as shown in this video by Pastor Steven Anderson: https://archive.org/details/PastorStevenAndersonMarchingToZion 41.146.35.140 (talk) 18:39, 1 June 2015 (UTC)

Original research

The interpretation of ancient writings must be left to experts and it is not ok for editors to add their own interpretations. That is the gist of WP:PRIMARY. Consequently the following is not admissible. There are also citation errors here. In the second one, Against Heresies is nowhere near the cited page numbers. Iraneus is commenting on the coming of the Antichrist as foretold in scripture and doesn't mention Jews explicitly at all. Including it on this page is a real stretch; doing so without reference to an expert secondary source is a serious breach of policy. Likewise, Hippolytus refers to "the people" and expert attention is needed for deciding if this means the Jews rather than Christians (whom he believed were the rightful inheritors of God's patronage). Zero^talk 01:39, 31 August 2015 (UTC)

Hippolytus and Irenaeus foresaw a Jewish return from exile, despite their unbelief in Jesus.

References

Zero^talk 01:26, 31 August 2015 (UTC)

Thank you, To editor Zero0000:. As the primary source page indicates, the distinction can be difficult. Primary sources are distinguished by their proximity to the event rather than age, with prophetic expectation, antiquity paradoxically increases distance. As to original research, if a citation of plain sense is OR, then most Christian writers would be excluded here. If it is encyclopaedic only to cite digested material, there is, as has been well demonstrated in contemporary situations, good evidence of perpetuating preconceptions. Both writers expect a Jewish restoration to the land and both identify the Antichrist as of Israel and they also both link the two phenomena. This may be unpalatable, but the quotes below make it manifest. I have corrected the pdf pages for ccel pdf of Irenaeus.

Hippolytus' text speaks plainly of Jewish return to the land from which they have been dispersed (already true at time of his writing).

He explains explicitly that he expects the Antichrist will raise the Jewish kingdom, 'And under this was signified none other than Antichrist, who is also himself to raise the kingdom of the Jews.' (p.526)

He opines that as the Messiah literally descended from Judah, so the Antichrist will be from Israel's Dan. 'For as Christ springs from the tribe of Judah, so Antichrist is to spring from the tribe of Dan.' (p.521)

Then in the text cited, (p.537-8) continuing on the subject of Antichrist, 'As his tribe, then, and his manifestation, and his destruction, have been set forth in these words, and as [the number of] his name has also been indicated mystically, let us look also at his action.For he will call together all the people to himself, out of every country of the dispersion, making them his own, as though they were his own children, and promising to restore their country, and establish again their kingdom and nation, in order that he may be worshipped'

Thus citation is neither obscure nor difficult. Call it OR if you will, it's simply citing a writer who makes his own opinion manifest.

Irenaeus his forerunner is still more explicit, writing at a time when Jerusalem was devoid of Jews and the Temple was in ruins:

'Another shall come in his own name,him ye will receive,”calling Antichrist “the other,” because he is alienated from the Lord. This is also the unjust judge, whom the Lord mentioned as one “who feared not God,neither regarded man,” to whom the widow fled in her forgetfulness of God,—that is,the earthly Jerusalem,—to be avenged of her adversary. Which also he shall do in the time of his kingdom: he shall remove his kingdom into that [city], and shall sit in the temple of God, leading astray those who worship him, as if he were Christ. To this purpose Daniel says again: “And he shall desolate the holy place; and sin has been given for a sacrifice' p 1363

'For when he (Antichrist) is come, and of his own accord concentrates in his own person the apostasy, and accomplishes whatever he shall do according to his own will and choice, sitting also in the temple of God, so that his dupes may adore him as the Christ; wherefore also shall he deservedly “be cast into the lake of fire:' p. 1370

He too ascribes his lineage to Israel's tribe of Dan, p 1375

'But when this Antichrist shall have devastated all things in this world, he will reign for three years and six months, and sit in the temple at Jerusalem; and then the Lord will come from heaven in the clouds, in the glory of the Father, sending this man and those who follow him into the lake of fire' p 1376

I don't believe there's any 'stretch' at all in citing these writers anticipating a restoration of Jews to their land. Of course, there is not the political activism, or sympathy for Jewish emancipation of Victorian Restorationists or 'Christian Zionists', but as early progenitors of the expectation, their writings are otherwise remarkably contemporary, and justify a brief reference. Both belie the assertion that this expectation was novel to the 16th century. Cpsoper (talk) 16:32, 15 May 2017 (UTC)

I stand by my opinion on this. To cite these sources as if they were pro-Zionist while ignoring their eschatological nature is a travesty. If it is all so clear, find a solid secondary source and cite that. We aren't allowed to do our own interpretations of primary sources. Zero^talk 02:18, 16 May 2017 (UTC)

@Cpsoper: There are many easily accessible secondary sources about this, I don't understand why you don't want to use them. This book is one such source. Here is another one. They don't seem to support your view though, or the ideas of Christian Zionism, so maybe it's better to just leave Iranaeus out - I can't find any evidence that Iranaeus is a major thinker for this belief - the only connection seems to be that Iranaeus was a millenarian and according to Britannica the Christian Zionists were also millenarians, but the sources I have from JSTOR trace the ideology back only to 19th century dispensantional premillennialism - I don't know if it was formally heresy, but the Catholic church has censored the parts of Iranaeus' writings on millenialism, but beyond that I don't see any connection to radical Protestanism - Christian Zionism is traced back to American puritanism but even there it is not clear what they are talking about - since they believe in "New Israel" it's murky whether the first thinkers mean a spirtual restoration (the restoration of Jews to Israel the Church) or actually the restoration of Jews to the Old Israel. To sort it out, I would have to spend a lot more time on it then I want to, but I can email you some articles if you want. Seraphim System ^(talk) 04:01, 16 May 2017 (UTC)

To editor Zero0000: Thank you, I will not press it, but my claim was 1/ Hippolytus and Irenaeus are not primary sources, not by the ordinary definition, since they are not close witnesses of an event, on the contrary it is far removed from them. 2/ If citing a distant but authoritative writer's plain and precise opinion on a subject is a violation of primary source rules, most of wiki would have to be rewritten. It is unusual for distance to be prospective not retrospective, but that is the nature of prophecy.

To editor Seraphim System:, the term Christian Zionist is indeed anachronistic, see Lewis, but it serves as useful label and has become commonplace for political activists for Jewish Restoration before Jewish Zionism, of whom they were many. As I wrote above, neither are Victorian proto-Zionists, noone claimed that. Even the early Puritans, and later contemporaries like Samuel Rutherford explicitly opposed Jewish emancipation, whilst eagerly anticipating a Jewish Restoration. A serious ignorance of the subject is betrayed by claiming the doctrine of Restorationism which gave birth to the political activism of Christian Zionism is rooted in early dispensationalism, for the politics read Lewis or for the doctrine a helpful summary is in Murray, both root the doctrine in the early post-millennial Puritans' writings (a minority were pre-mill, none of course dispensational - Darby's scheme) and hint at earlier writers still, long before dispensationalism in 1840s. Its earliest political advocates per Lewis were postmillennial in the 1790s, but he continues the banner was largely carried by pre-mills from the 1820s on, though not entirely even now.

I can only go by what the sources say. I know more about Christianity then I do about Judaism. The sources I saw say it was about wanting to destroy the Ottoman Empire.Seraphim System ^(talk) 18:05, 16 May 2017 (UTC)

Anyway, I looked into it a little more. Again it seems like you are trying to put your own read on Christian Zionism. You can read also Charles Spurgeon. Regarding dispensationalism, it is effectively the separation of Israel and the Church. You would need to start with Calvin and covenant theology and make up your own mind, what you the word "Israel" means. If you take it too far it ends up in some very bad places, but that is a minority view and not in keeping with the spirit of this view that is rooted in honoring the New Covenant. Calvin writes about the "salvation of the whole Israel of God" but as I said above, much has been made of that phrase and interpretations remain murky.The vast majority of sources today hold with Darby's dispensationalism, not Calvin. Seraphim System ^(talk) 19:43, 16 May 2017 (UTC)

Thanks To editor Seraphim System:, won't digress, but Lewis upon whom I have drawn heavily is well worth reading, and shows the nature of the interactions between political and spiritual motivations, (see some quotes here)personified in Shaftesbury and Palmerston, drawing extensively from primary sources and interacting with most authorities Jewish and Christian on the subject. Spurgeon is a case in point of one who opposed dispensationalism strongly (see embedded quote) but was an equally fervent restorationist (see sermon ref in article), his pre-mill credentials are now somewhat disputed, because of vaguer less consistent expressions. Calvin usually equated the church with Israel in his exegesis for profit of hearers, but his British Puritan admirers especially largely saw Jewish Restoration as necessary and important and frequently prayed for it (Murray documents this extensively for many), many Calvinistic US heirs of the Puritans, Cotton and Increase Mather, Jonathan Edwards for example, seem to have followed this pattern, with a firmly belief in Covenant Theology and Restoration, long before Dispensationalism fanned the flames of this expectation (again Murray treats on the earlier aspects of this, Merkley the later developments (including Blackstone)).Cpsoper (talk) 13:26, 19 May 2017 (UTC)

Your citation of comment is upon Adv Her. 4 not 5. Irenaeus in this passage explicitly refers to the literal city 'the earthly Jerusalem', not the spiritual metaphor. It is plain these two writers, shortly after the Apostles expected a Jewish return to Israel after the diaspora. They expected a Restoration, even if unlike later counterparts, they were not sympathetic to Jewish suffering. Nevertheless, given the difference, I will forego a reinsertion of these two sources themselves. Cpsoper (talk) 10:31, 16 May 2017 (UTC)

The problematic statement said that Irenaeus and Hippolytus "foresaw" something, and for that the writings of Irenaeus and Hippolytus are undoubtedly primary sources. By the ordinary definition and any other definition I've ever met. Zero^talk 12:19, 16 May 2017 (UTC)

Fair comment, but does that not also apply to Herzl his assistants as well as the Christian genuine 'proto-Zionists'? Would we argue Herzl's works couldn't be cited in passing on a Zionism page on primary source grounds, despite being a much closer participant? Enough said, (at least by me). Cpsoper (talk) 14:28, 16 May 2017 (UTC)

References

Miscellaneous comments

• This source that someone just added has material quite different from the text it was attached to. A fair report of this source would mention the author's contention that Christian Zionists are noted for their antagonism to Islam. Zero^talk 13:49, 31 August 2015 (UTC)

• MidEastWeb, cited twice, is a private website that does not satisfy WP:RS. An example of why is the sentence "In August 1840, The Times reported that the British government was considering Jewish restoration." which is copied verbatim and thus violates copyright as well. In fact, the original in The Times of 17 Aug 1840, page 3, is an anonymous letter to the editor and is thus unusable even if it is reported accurately (which it isn't). Zero^talk 13:49, 31 August 2015 (UTC)

Essay tag

The article is still messy, but there is more referenced text and some opinion sections have been pruned, and unsubstantiated assertions flagged. Others may disagree but I have removed the essay tag, and left the synth tag.Cpsoper (talk) 05:59, 13 April 2016 (UTC)

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External links modified

Hello fellow Wikipedians,

I have just modified 10 external links on Christian Zionism. Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:

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Edit to 'Biblical Interpretations - Other' - Better things found in Hebrews - A Better Priesthood

I removed the latter two sentences of paragraph 1 as they are both vague and misleading in their presentation of argument/sources and claims.

The obsoletion of Mosaic Covenantal observance is not replaced by the Church but by an individual priesthood of every believer: The Priesthood of Melchizedek which replaces en-blanc (in whole) the Levitical-Aaronic Priesthood (Heb. 7:18)

In this Epistle, Paul relates how we have such better things in Christ; a better Savior; a better Covenant; better promises; a better priesthood, etc. and Christ's superiority over all these things which He subordinates. The Priesthood of Levi is temporary as coming from a descendant of Abraham who owed tithes to his fathers. Of whom All died, Aaron, Levi and all his priest-sons in due course. This is juxtaposed by the writer of Hebrews with Melchizedek, of whom it is written that he "abideth a priest continually", being without mother or father, without descent, having neither beginning of days nor ending of life (Heb. 7:3-4); to whom Levi's father (to whom he owed respect, deference and tribute) Abraham gave the tithes - thus signifying his own deference, and thereby the inferiority of his descendant Aaron's High-Priestly office and priesthood as compared to Melchizedek's.

But I am getting away from my point, the Church can no way then be spoken of as fulfilling the role of the priesthood and certainly not "faithful Jews and the Temple", faithful Jews by no necessity being priests at all and the Temple (Levitical Priesthood and sacrifices) being superseded by the Priesthood of Melchizedek and by the singular (Heb. 7:27-28) and final (Heb. 10:12) sacrifice made by the High Priest of it (Jesus), who offered up Himself.

Furthermore the much abused expression that in Christ there is "neither Jew nor Greek" is in reference to a letter written to the Galatian Christians who are by virtue of their faith (Gal. 3:26) 'in Christ'. This does not abrogate the Mosaic claim of the Jews to the land which God has promised to them and in fact is not concerning them or their fate, this being done in Romans 9-11. Unbelieving Jews are not 'in Christ' and so this verse is not relevant to the issue of Jewish claims to the land of Israel.

Martin Luther King

King wasn't a public supporter of Zionism according to https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Letter_to_an_Anti-Zionist_Friend — Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.73.115.74 (talk) 18:18, 12 May 2018 (UTC)

prominent fluff

The adjective "prominent" is used 9 times in this article to promote the importance of different people. It is not appropriate in an encyclopedia. Nobody who was not prominent in some way should be here at all, so the adjective is not only redundant but amounts to commentary in Wikipedia's voice (including when it is an opinion copied without attribution from a source). Zero^talk 01:36, 12 July 2018 (UTC)

William Blackstone and other nonsense

This article is a whitewash from start to finish. There isn't a single mention of the rapture or the Battle of Armageddon that are a key part of the thinking of many Christian Zionists. And how about this whopper: The tycoon William Eugene Blackstone was inspired by the conference to publish the book Jesus is Coming, which took up the restorationist cause, and also absolved the Jews of the need to convert to Christianity either before or after the return of the Messiah. Listen to what Jesus is Coming actually says (presentation edition, 1908), caps in original:

"In the first Restoration [from Babylon], because of their blindness, and hard, stony hearts, they rejected and killed Jesus. But in the future Restoration they shall repent of all this, and have CLEAN HEARTS, and accept of CHRIST, who will be their King." (p170)

"Surely Israel shall be restored; but there is an awful TIME OF TROUBLE awaiting her. Their sins are mountain high. Upon them is the guilt of innocent blood, even the precious blood of Jesus Christ. ... Yes, they shall repent and loathe themselves. They 'shall pass through the sea with affliction.' Many shall die, but the third part shall be saved." (p174)

And so on. This sort of stuff is not fringe. There is even a good source in the article that makes it clear, but the source is not cited for its main point. Instead, the vision of 2/3 of Jews being killed (other than a small fraction that converted in time) and the rest finally accepting Christ is hidden behind the phrase "inevitable future events". How pathetic. Zero^talk 13:20, 8 October 2020 (UTC)

How do you know that the Rapture or Armageddon inspired political involvement on behalf of the Jews by all Christian Zionists? It certainly is a prominent part of much dispensationalist teaching, as you've cited, but that hardly amount to evidence for motivation. You have quoted Blackstone's writings and the inaccuracy needs correcting or clarifying, I haven't examined this. As Lewis and others have documented, Christian Zionists and Jewish belivers in Jesus were often involved in political activism on behalf of the rights of rabbinic Jews, for example in the Damascus Blood Libel and later in the pogroms in ways that had nothing to do with the Lord Jesus' second coming.Cpsoper (talk) 20:30, 14 October 2020 (UTC)

(@Cpsoper: Sorry, I didn't see your reply until now.) Please read this page which is not the best possible source but there are plenty of good sources that say much the same thing. There is no single basis to all of Christian Zionism, but the Rapture and Armageddon was and is a common part of that basis and that should be mentioned. (I didn't say "all Christian Zionists"; I said it is not fringe.) At the moment it is not mentioned even in cases such as Blackstone where it was a central aspect. Your last sentences ignore human complexity. Despite what Blackstone wrote (as I quoted above), it is absolutely clear from his writings that he was touched by the plight of the Jews he met in Palestine and wanted to help them materially. To a Christian fundamentalist like him, there is no contradiction. Armageddon wasn't something he wished upon the Jews, but something that his religious beliefs told him was going to happen no matter what. Zero^talk 03:17, 25 October 2020 (UTC)

@Zero0000: Sorry I didn't alert you to the edit. I agree with much you've written, Armageddon, Gog and Magog and their appalling descriptions do loom large in Christian thought, as it has from Patristic times with Hippolytus and Irenaeus. It's important to distinguish between sensationalist fringe writers and mainstream spokesmen, and as you hint it's not surprising to see a Muslim primary editor apparently cherry picking some of the more alarming streams of expression for effect. I know of Dyer, though regarded him as a minor & rather eccentric voice, but never read of Michael Evans before sampling your quote. Most Christian sources I read don't advocate war, however strongly they support Israel, and take pleasure in peace, even if it spoils their hermeneutic, though there certainly are exceptions. It'd be easy to cite the Brotherhood as representative of Al Azhar or ISIS as spokesmen for Islamists worldwide, and just as erroneous. There are also Christian Zionists, who are liberal, not evangelical, though diminishing in number, Merkley (ref in the article) gives many accounts, and some who are Roman Catholic too. CUFI and the International Christian Embassy in Jerusalem are fairly widely regarded sources for the evangelical streams, though both have prominent critics and prominent criticisms of their continuity with historical antecedents, named in the article. I agree reference to apocalyptic events is appropriate, with good secondary sources, but better to use academic sources, without an overtly tendentious Antizionistic or Antiamerican bias, would it aid proper study to caricature a whole movement? My time is limited, but happy to comment and add as able. Cpsoper (talk) 21:34, 25 October 2020 (UTC)

The repeated statements in Christian exponents about a future Jewish return to Israel from the 19th century onwards certainly, cannot be read by most Jews as anything other than deeply condescending- to use an oxymoron, as sniffish philosemitism, whose declared aims of moving (their) Jews from Europe were props to some self-serving Christian religious purpose and, esp. in English texts, as a means of using 'repatriated' puppets to further England's imperial outreach. This is there from Shaftesbury onwards, and this article is quite deficient in its exiguous use of such abundant sources. Nishidani (talk) 13:11, 28 May 2022 (UTC)

Indiscriminate list

The list under the heading "notable proponents" has been removed as an WP:INDISCRIMINATE list. While I don't discount the amount of effort put into listing/updating/sourcing the list, it does not have a place in this article. As it stands, it is just an indiscriminate list of people. While everyone listed certainly meets WP:GNG as a person, that's not the same as saying they are specifically notable for being a Christion Zionist. Because it is just a list of names, it does not establish that fact. Nor is there any organization to the list. It's currently just an alphabetical dumping ground, some of whom are modern politicians, some modern evangelists and theologians, others from the era of establishing Israel as a state, etc. There's no indication of why they are deemed notable for inclusion. And 40% of the article's sources are solely dedicated to this list and not used in any other area of the article.

What needs to happen

I would support a separate list article of notable Christian Zionists with the following provisos:

• It would be necessary to define why someone included is notable as a Christian Zionist. That needs to go beyond the fact that they have a Wikipedia article and just so happen to be a CZ. Why are they notable for that particular position (as opposed to being notable for other reasons).
• It would need to organize the list or identify who/what they are (or both) - either by grouping similar categories (i.e. modern era politicians, modern era theologians, etc) or by at least listing some information about why they are included in the list. That could be a column in a table, or it could be separate tables.
• The above items would need to be well defined so that the list does not become a dumping ground for every person on Wikipedia who happens to be a Christian Zionist - otherwise we'll just end up with a massive (and useless) list of every dispensationalist who happens to have a Wikipedia article (which is the direction it's headed now). There needs to be clear and defined inclusion criteria as to why they are notable for being a Christian Zionist.

Note: Just because it was removed, doesn't mean it's irretrievable. Should the above criteria be able to be met, the existing work done is up to this edit could be used as a starting point for a legitimate list article.

On a related note, there are people on this list that are probably Zionists but not necessarily Christian Zionists. There is a distinction between being a Zionist and being a Christian Zionist. Christian Zionism has specific eschatological associations, and further comes with presumption that Jews will ultimately convert to Christianity as a matter of prophetic fulfillment. One can be a Christian and a Zionist, but that doesn't make them a Christian Zionist. As a supporter of a state of Israel without the additional elements, they're just a Zionist Christian. There are at least a few people on this list that I would put into that bucket, as well as some who may be Christian Zionists, but the supporting citations only identify them as being supporters of the state of Israel. As an example of the latter, the source America’s 20 Most Influential Pro-Israel Evangelical Christians lists Sarah Palin. While some people on that source's list are identified as being listed because of the prophetic significance of Israel, it does not do so with Palin. It just says "Sarah Palin promised to deepen the strategic partnership between Israel and the US and defend Israel’s security. 'Israel is our strongest and best ally in the Middle East'". As a Pentacostal, it could be concluded that she's a Christian Zionist, but that's WP:SYNTH because you're drawing a conclusion not specifically stated in the source. So don't just put Zionist Christians on the list unless it can be sourced that they are Christian Zionists (I'd accept something that points out their theological position without specifically stating the words Christian Zionist/ism). ButlerBlog (talk) 16:41, 12 September 2023 (UTC)

I, for one, subscribe to all the points above. As a student of history (particularly the history of the beginnings of this early-modern phenomenon in the 17th century) I think this article has to be able to make a very clear separation between history proper and post-WWII politics. I personally am only interested in the possible historical part of this article, as long as this clear separation I am talking about exists. Thank you, warshy ^(¥¥) 17:41, 12 September 2023 (UTC)

@Butlerblog@Warshy I agree also. Doug Weller talk 06:52, 13 September 2023 (UTC)

By the way. I just realized also that the expression "Christian Zionism" as a distinct field of historical study is a pretty recent phenomenon. I'd say, without researching the matter, that it is a pretty 21st century new thing. In the historical literature of the 17th century of the 1980s and 1990s this used to be called still simply "Philo-Judaism" and/or Calvinist Millenarianism (Very important, the mainstream historical literature calls it Millenarianism, not Millenialism. Currently Wikipedia argues the two are different things, when in fact they are not.). Thank you, warshy ^(¥¥) 19:40, 13 September 2023 (UTC)

I agree with your first statement except that it isn't quite that young. Examples around the middle of the 20th century are not hard to find. I disagree that it was equivalent to "philo-Judaism" which did not necessarily involve a Jewish homeland aspect. Relevant older words mostly applied to Christians included "restorationism". Zero^talk 05:09, 14 September 2023 (UTC)

Thank you for the observations. I was referring for example to this item:

• Katz, David S., Philosemitism and the Readmission of the Jews to England, 1603-1655, Oxford, Oxford University Press, 1982.

Some strains of Millenarian Puritanism in the 17th century did start to adopt the "restoration" aspect you mention, especially after the establishment of the Protectorate. We also have to be careful, because there is also the other "restoration" involved, i.e. the restoration of Charles II to the throne in England. Thank you, warshy ^(¥¥) 15:14, 14 September 2023 (UTC)

Not to mention the Stone-Campbell movement.

I also agree that any list should only include dispensationalists, not Christians that happen to support Israel. —Confession0791 ^talk 22:16, 14 September 2023 (UTC)

To distill this down, the following definition sums up succinctly what is included and what is not (emphasis added):

Christian Zionism can be defined simply as "Christian support for Zionism that is based on theological reasons"... This definition of Christian Zionism would exclude the view of those Christians who might call themselves 'Zionists' in the sense that they support the idea that there should be a Jewish state in at least part of the land. They believe that Jews have a right to some of the land and that, because of the animosities between the two communities, the only viable solution is to have Jewish state and a Palestinian state. Although Christians who hold this view might call themselves 'Zionists', they would not be included in the above definition of 'Christian Zionism' because their support of Zionism is not based on theological considerations. - Colin Chapman, Whose Promised Land? 2002, page 254

ButlerBlog (talk) 16:16, 20 November 2023 (UTC)

Mennonite sources

I have tagged two sources purportedly supporting the Mennonite publication of an article condemning Christian Zionism, that do not mention Mennonites, Christians or Christian Zionism. I suspect Elfelix added these sources (edit 1, edit 2) to support the phrase "what is called the ongoing illegal seizure of additional Palestinian lands by Israeli militants", but as the text makes clear that this is the viewpoint of the Mennonite article and not a statement of fact by Wikipedia, it is not necessary to cite sources to support it independently. I am tagging the sources but not removing them outright, because the contributing editor is, to my knowledge, currently unable to edit this page. Ibadibam (talk) 05:56, 5 February 2024 (UTC)