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Talk:Christchurch mosque shootings

RfC about info box accused = Brenton Harrison TarrantEdit

This article has a Infobox civilian attack template Template:Infobox_civilian_attack which has an info box with a space for the name of the accused. Brenton Harrison Tarrant has been charged with 51 murders, 40 attempted murders, and engaging in a terrorist act. Should he be included in the info box as the accused? It is currently empty. ♥ L'Origine du monde ♥ Talk 02:22, 10 July 2019 (UTC)

SurveyEdit

  • Νο. Ι'm generally treating infoboxes without the assumption (held by many  ) that "infoboxes are an abomination" but this is a typical case where infobox makers got things wrong. There should never have been a place for "accused" persons or of "sus[pected] perp[etrator]s" in the template. The article's main text can, of course, offer the reports of acceptable sources about suspects or arrested people and so on, but these are (or, rather, should be) given within the appropriate context of the respective investigation. Bringing this information up, front, and center in an infobox, in unquestioning isolation, is an indirect yet clear violation of our obligation to keep a neutral stance. Let's start working towards a remedy for this unfortunate state of affairs by not posting up names. -The Gnome (talk) 11:43, 11 July 2019 (UTC)
  • No it's too simplistic and matter of fact in an info-box and needs the proper context and related info in the prose of the main text, thanks Atlantic306 (talk) 21:39, 11 July 2019 (UTC)
  • Yes If there must be an info box, it seems a simple matter of neutral fact. The authorities, and all reliable sources, seem certain he is accused, and will face trial.♥ L'Origine du monde ♥ Talk 23:09, 11 July 2019 (UTC)
  • Yes Infoboxes are a simple summary of what can be verified by multiple reliable sources so it is incomplete without the name. The only caveat is that this must refer to the accused rather than the perpetrator because Tarrant is entitled to the presumption of innocence. Info boxes are key/value pairs and this has inherent limitations but this is not the forum to discuss the limitations of presenting data in this format - we need to work with the template we are given. 118.149.198.17 (talk) 00:24, 12 July 2019 (UTC)
  • Yes. Name him in the infobox as the accused. This is a fact and does not imply guilt in any way. But naming (as accused) in the lead may carry too much weight, so I don't want him named there. Akld guy (talk) 00:49, 12 July 2019 (UTC)
Comment: In the lead, context can be adequately provided, while in the infobox it cannot, by definition. Shouldn't then this be the other way around, i.e. have it in the lead, but not in the box? -The Gnome (talk) 07:04, 12 July 2019 (UTC)
Comment: The lead is not the place for context. The lead is meant to be a summary of what follows, not a piece by piece analysis. Look around and you'll find leads that are so bloated they are articles in their own right and there's no need for the rest. Akld guy (talk) 07:46, 12 July 2019 (UTC)
I still fail to see how a small summary in the lead section does not provide context, even at a minimum. The lead is, as you say, a summary. That's still far more preferable that an infobox with an unaccompanied bit of info. We should always follow WP:BLP about relatively unknown people and seriously consider not including material —in any article— that suggests the person has committed, or is accused of having committed, a crime, unless a conviction has been secured. An out-of-context, stand-alone presentation in the infobox of the name of a person being accused trespasses into the territory WP:BLP warns us off. The template itself is in error and we should minimize its effects. -The Gnome (talk) 08:13, 14 July 2019 (UTC)
P.S. : I haven't suggested a "piece-by-piece" analysis in the lead. Αrguing that there are already articles with "bloated" leading sections is WP:OSE. -The Gnome (talk) 08:13, 14 July 2019 (UTC)
  • Yes No real problems with this as long as it is "accused".--♦IanMacM♦ (talk to me) 05:27, 12 July 2019 (UTC)
  • No This guy is a nobody. Putting him in the infobox (or the lead) is promoting him as a somebody. If his name becomes a household word then it would be appropriate. I feel strongly that Wikipedia should not shape cultural perceptions, but present them as they are. Also to a degree "suspect" or "accused" without any context translate to most as "the guy we all know did it, but we are not saying it outright." Having the reader go to the body of the article to get the name presents an opportunity for context. Richard-of-Earth (talk) 18:25, 14 July 2019 (UTC)
"Promoting" is not reference to any wikipedia policy; as to what cultural perceptions "are", I see no citations and don't think this is verifiable either.--Calthinus (talk) 04:27, 17 July 2019 (UTC)
I suppose WP:UNDUE would be the policy. Presenting this guy's name more prominently is saying "this is important, you should know it first". I feel that is "undue" and not neutral. However this seems to be very much a judgement call. There are cases where policy is clear cut and cases where it is up to the editors involved. In this case, determining what cultural perceptions are is a judgement call. Even if I found some source who said this guy's name is unimportant, it would just be that pundit's view. Richard-of-Earth (talk) 17:27, 17 July 2019 (UTC)
  • Yes I prefer the word "Suspect", until proper sentencing per WP:BLPCRIME Loganmac (talk) 23:14, 15 July 2019 (UTC)
  • Yes, it is essential information for the event. Furthermore, "accused", while in line with WP:BLPCRIME is insufficient. Accused what? Perpetrator? Well that is what most readers would guess but there is no need to be weaselly about this ("accused" could also be a collaborator). Consider instead : "accused perpetrator". This does not state his guilt in wikivoice but still clearly states what his self-filmed role was -- the basis of a legal accusation to which he is a defendant, and will be handled in court. --Calthinus (talk) 04:25, 17 July 2019 (UTC)
  • Strong no, per WP:BLPCRIME: we should not include material suggesting a person has committed a crime, nor been accused thereof, until they are duly convicted. Compassionate727 (T·C) 13:53, 18 July 2019 (UTC)
  • Yes BLPCRIME does not apply because the suspect's name has been all over the place in reliable sources. We don't need to wait for a conviction in these circumstances - the suspect is a WP:PUBLICFIGURE. --Pudeo (talk) 13:19, 19 July 2019 (UTC)
    • You appear to misunderstand what a Public figure is and have substituted your own definition that most nearly equates to “has been in all the papers.” Im assuming good faith but the way you laid this out could be seen as purposefully misleading, at the very least you are gravely mistaken about pretty basic wikipedia policy. Horse Eye Jack (talk) 17:02, 19 July 2019 (UTC)
  • No (Summoned by bot) per WP:BLPCRIME. I agree with Horse Eye Jack above about the suspect being not a public figure. If being named in news coverage qualifies someone as public figure, BLPCRIME becomes meaningless because it wouldn't apply to any article (being covered in multiple independent reliable sources is part of the requirements for even having an article). It's meant to uphold the assumption of innocence with only limited exceptions, and I don't believe this is one. For similar reasons, I'm not convinced by anonymous editor above who says infoboxes are for obvious facts. There's no requirement that articles have infoboxes, let alone that every possible field be populated. WP:BLPCRIME says to err on the side of not including information, so we should err on not including it in the infobox because nothing compels us to include in the first place. Wug·a·po·des​ 05:58, 20 July 2019 (UTC)
  • Yes. His name has been published widely around the world. That makes Wikipedia look lame and timid not to publish it. WWGB (talk) 09:22, 20 July 2019 (UTC)
  • Comment: WP:FART says "just because a piece of trivial information was printed in a newspaper or gossip magazine, or on a website, there is no requirement for it to be included on Wikipedia" which is correct. Facing trial for one of the most serious mass shootings ever is a long way outside WP:FART territory. The article has to avoid problems with WP:ASTONISH, as I have said below.--♦IanMacM♦ (talk to me) 09:33, 20 July 2019 (UTC)
    • Yeah, it's flippant and doesn't add much to the discussion. I've removed it from my rationales. As to your point, I would still way BLPCRIME over ASTONISH. I think respecting the moral and legal rights to privacy are worth delaying prominent naming; there's no deadline, and we can afford to wait until there is a conviction, even if readers are surprised accusations are not given prominence. Wug·a·po·des​ 12:52, 20 July 2019 (UTC)
  • No - what's the rush? Wait for the outcome per WP:BLPCRIME. -- DeFacto (talk). 09:39, 20 July 2019 (UTC)
  • No And pursuant to WP:BLP and per NZ law. The "Wikipedia is not censored and can therefore ignore common sense" argument is of nil value, as far as I can tell. As is the "well we know who did it, so why care about WP:BLP" argument. Neither should be given any weight at all in this RfC. We can add his name when it is proper under WP:BLP and not before. Collect (talk) 17:17, 24 July 2019 (UTC)
  • Yes. The subject is an involuntary public figure per 80000 results in Google News for "Brenton Tarrant" christchurch. The qualifier of 'accused' is acceptable. I frankly don't care about NZ law. This is a special circumstance, and passes the threshold of "seriously not consider" that WP:BLPCRIME requires. Tutelary (talk) 18:49, 25 July 2019 (UTC)
  • Yes. If were discussing the "perpetrator" field from the infobox template then this would be unwarranted; but the "accused" field is appropriate because the article already identifies the suspect in the lead as having been arrested and charged. Regards, AzureCitizen (talk) 22:14, 5 August 2019 (UTC)

Threaded discussionEdit

Policy seems to say that he is limited purpose or involuntary public figure" who cannot be defamed. [1]. says " this section (WP:BLPCRIME) applies to individuals who are not public figures; that is, individuals not covered by [2]. :Biographies_of_living_persons#Public_figures says In the case of public figures, there will be a multitude of reliable published sources, and BLPs should simply document what these sources say. If an allegation or incident is noteworthy, relevant, and well documented, it belongs in the article—even if it is negative and the subject dislikes all mention of it. If you cannot find multiple reliable third-party sources documenting the allegation or incident, leave it out. If the subject has denied such allegations, that should also be reported. [3] says a person can become an "involuntary public figure" as the result of publicity, even though that person did not want or invite the public attention. For example, people accused of high profile crimes may be unable to pursue actions for defamation even after their innocence is established.♥ L'Origine du monde ♥ Talk 18:06, 14 July 2019 (UTC)

MOS:DONTTEASE says "Tabloid, magazine, and broadcast news leads may have "teasers" that intentionally omit some crucial details to entice readers to read or watch the full story. They may even "bury the lead" by hiding the most important facts. This style should never be used on Wikipedia."♥ L'Origine du monde ♥ Talk 15:02, 15 July 2019 (UTC)

Comment (Summoned by bot): If a majority of reliable sources report this info, then it would not go against NPOV to include it in the infobox; in fact not doing so would fail to give the info proper WP:WEIGHT. It's debatable whether WP:BLPCRIME applies here, given that the suspect clearly sought notoriety for himself by livestreaming the attack. Whether Wikipedia should be helping the attacker achieve that notoriety is another thing to consider. —Sangdeboeuf (talk) 10:19, 17 July 2019 (UTC)

Comment: WP:ASTONISH is involved here. Some people have asked why Tarrant's name is hidden in a rather obscure way. Although WP:BLPCRIME still applies, the court did not prevent him from being named and his name has appeared widely in news media all over the world. Overall, it is OK to name him as long as it is made clear that he is the accused person facing trial. In Stoneman Douglas High School shooting Nikolas Cruz, is identified as the assailant in the lead and the infobox, although he yet to face trial.--♦IanMacM♦ (talk to me) 06:18, 20 July 2019 (UTC)

Avoiding the word "Muslims"?Edit

Brenton Tarrant has specifically said on his pastebin text that he was targetting muslim refugees. I am curious as to why we are playing hot-potato by using words such as "Mosque attendees" or "Mosque worshippers" etc. Fefil14 (talk) 00:12, 2 September 2019 (UTC)

The word "Muslim" is in the text a couple dozen times. Perhaps you are trying to make another point? O3000 (talk) 00:20, 2 September 2019 (UTC)
I believe this is reference to the infobox. As I stated in the edit summary when I added that phrasing, that phrasing is more in line with how the parameter is used at articles like 7 July 2005 London bombings (Public aboard London Underground trains and a bus in Central London), Manchester Arena bombing (Concert-goers), and Orlando nightclub shooting (Patrons of Pulse nightclub). TompaDompa (talk) 21:16, 7 September 2019 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 9 September 2019Edit

Would like to add the fact the shooter also targeted two people while driving away from the mosque, shooting a "lever action" firearm through his windshield wounding only one. The site I got this information on has the video of the shooting, and I would prefer that the Wikipedia page for this shooting does not have a reference linking the video. David T3212 (talk) 07:09, 9 September 2019 (UTC)

Please follow the instructions printed directly above your post: ...specify what text should be removed and a verbatim copy of the text that should replace it. Akld guy (talk) 08:37, 9 September 2019 (UTC)
Per previous discussions, the article cannot include material which is sourced to an analysis of the video (type of gun used etc). There is a stage in the video where the alleged shooter fires out of the car window, but this would need a reliable secondary source.--♦IanMacM♦ (talk to me) 08:58, 9 September 2019 (UTC)

Political motivation?Edit

"Described in media reports as a white supremacist and part of the alt-right".

Except that isn't clear.

He expresses a desire to "destabiliz[e] and polariz[e] Western society," "[turn] NATO once more into a united European army," and "create conflict between the two ideologies within the United States on the ownership of firearms."

On his political ideology, he says: "conservatism is corporatism in disguise, I want no part of it." "The nation with the closest political and social values to my own is the People's Republic of China." "Sir Oswald Mosley is the person from history closest to my own beliefs." (context: Oswald Mosley founded several authoritarian political parties in Great Britain, and ultimately strove for a unified Europe.) "Were/are you "right wing"? Depending on the definition, sure. Were/are you "left wing"? Depending on the definition, sure. Were/are you a socialist? Depending on the definition. Worker ownership of the means of production? It depends on who those workers are, their intents, who currently owns the means of production, their intents and who currently owns the state, and its intents. Were/are you a supporter of Donald Trump? As a symbol of renewed white identity and common purpose? Sure. As a policy maker and leader? Dear god no." "Conservatism is dead. Thank god." "There is no Green future with never ending population growth, the ideal green world cannot exist in a World of 100 billion 50 billion or even 10 billion people." "Emotions rule over facts. ... Be creative, be expressive, be emotional and above all be passionate. These are the things that speak to people, connect people, drive people. Paint, write, sing, dance, recite poetry." "global free markets and the trade of goods is to be discouraged at all costs. An environmentally conscious and moral society will never be able to economically compete with a society based on ever increasing industrialization, urbanization, industrial output and population increase."

Seems to have a lot more in common with socialists and communists than anything, and the only supposed link to "white supremacy" is his vague answers to the "right wing" and "renewed white identity", the latter of which is a clearly politically motivated question.

It would seem more accurate to file this under "unknown" or "unclear" because this guy is all over the map, and the only common theme I'm seeing here is psychopathism. — Preceding unsigned comment added by V0latyle (talkcontribs) 15:41, 11 September 2019 (UTC)

That you disagree with the wide array of cited reliable sources for the description of this as white supremacist terrorism is interesting, but of no relevance to Wikipedia. NorthBySouthBaranof (talk) 15:50, 11 September 2019 (UTC)
The manifesto is a load of alt-right/far-right rambling. People who do crackpot political things are rarely able to plead insanity successfully, with Anders Behring Breivik a good example. Psychiatrists disagreed about his exact mental state, but any sort of advanced planning shows that a person is aware of what they are doing.--♦IanMacM♦ (talk to me) 17:36, 11 September 2019 (UTC)
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