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Poets? couldn't read edit
In the section I just reworded [[1]], I tried to keep the meaning the same. But I'm not quite sure whether the creators or the performers are the ones that couldn't read. It would seem it would be the performer that would have a problem if they could not read - so shouldn't it be trouveres rather than poets?
Trouvères or not? edit
There's a basic conflict between this article and Trouvère, where it is never suggested that trouvères wrote the Chansons de geste. And, indeed, I don't remember seeing any evidence that they did. Some of the Chansons themselves are quite explicit on this point; so far as I remember, when they claim anything, they claim to belong to jongleurs, not trouvères. I might do some rewriting here -- but perhaps someone else better qualified will do it first? Andrew Dalby http://perso.wanadoo.fr/dalby/ 14:56, 23 April 2006 (UTC)
I've now begun to rework this. The following sentence
Another school of thought, championed by Joseph Bédier ... discounting the possibility of Germanic influence in their invention.
is a problem to me, because I don't know who suggested Germanic influence on the chansons de geste. If anyone knows, please restore this clause and footnote it -- thanks. The following sentence seems to be a misunderstanding:
the rhymes they contain are interspersed irregularly through the ends of each line. While not every line must rhyme, each of the rhymes in any one stanza must be the same.
again, if someone knows better, please restore the sentence (and preferably clarify it!) Thanks for any hel bv8rqevg d d 7qwdkmvwe dcj dqw cgtadc absd inwdc wdvwdcvqd wdc gvcgvwrqdfwxds vass ghhit you mom [1]w Dalby|Andrew Dalby]] 20:15, 24 May 2006 (UTC)
The one suggesting Germanic influences was Gaston Paris. About the trouvères: I'll open up a new debate. -- La Belle Aude 21:05, 13 February 2007 (UTC)
References
- ^ hguhbbfv
List of chansons de geste edit
I've extended the article and included a fairly long list of chansons de geste. My aim was to provide at least the approximate date of the first known version and later reworkings, but in many cases I haven't yet been able to do this; apart from that, I know the list isn't yet complete, and I may have listed a few titles in the wrong "cycle", so I'll be very happy if others have time to improve the list. Andrew Dalby 19:48, 25 May 2006 (UTC)
Trouvères, again edit
Why would you say that trouvères didn't compose the Chansons de Geste? That seems very odd to me. Would anybody like to elaborate? -- La Belle Aude 21:07, 13 February 2007 (UTC)
- I don't believe any medieval source says that trouvères composed chansons de geste. The word seems usually to be used quite precisely in medieval sources, at least in those I have read. I think most modern authors follow the medieval terminology; hence it is usually said that trouvères composed lyric poetry, as you will see if you read the article trouvère. There is little mention of narrative genres in that article.
- In general, if you read the chansons de geste themselves, wherever there is any mention of authorship and performance, they make the claim that chansons de geste belong to jongleurs, not trouvères. Of course, one may doubt such claims -- but I don't remember that in any chanson de geste I've looked at there is a suggestion that a trouvère is responsible.
- A very useful survey of the evidence from chansons de geste themselves about the people who composed and performed them, and how the performances worked, is in an article by D. J. A. Ross in Traditions of heroic and epic poetry ed. A. T. Hatto, J. B. Hainsworth (London: Modern Humanities Research Association, 1980-89). I think it was in vol. 1 but I don't have the precise reference any more. J. J. Duggan has been studying the social context of chansons de geste -- see his "Le mode de composition des chansons de geste" in \Olifant\ vol. 8 (1980/81) pp. 286-316; "Social functions of the medieval epic in the Romance literatures" in \Oral tradition\ vol. 1 (1986) pp. 728-766; other work by him too.
- Any use? Andrew Dalby 22:13, 13 February 2007 (UTC)
- I'm not an expert on chansons de geste in particular, but considering the nature of medieval literature in general, I think we should be careful to attribute "authorship" to specific individuals, or even groups. These texts were transmitted orally for a long time before they were first written down, and so didn't have any author. The performers didn't "invent" the stories, they just told them in their own way.
- And even after they were written down, the authorship probably continued to be "collective". We mustn't think of "authors" in the modern sense of the word. Even if a text has a specific "author's" name on it, that was just the person responsible for writing down that particular copy of the story.
- I recommend Mary Carruthers: The Book of Memory and The Craft of Thought for anyone interested in the nature of medieval authorship. --dllu 14:02, 18 April 2007 (UTC)
Concerning Troubadours (trouvères), jongleurs and authorship, the debate about the composition of the chansons se geste and their performance remains insoluble. Refer to: Rychner, Jean. La Chanson de Geste: Essai sur l'Art Épique des Jongleurs. Edited by Mario Roques. Vol. LIII, Société de Publications Romanes et Françaises. Geneva: Librairie E. Droz, 1955; and Delbouille, Maurice. "Les chansons de geste et le livre." In La technique littéraire des chansons de geste: Actes du Colloque de Liège Septembre 1957, 295-407. Paris: Société d'Édition Les Belles Lettres, 1959. The theory of authorship in the Middle Ages must be seen in entirely different perspective than that of today in which we have precise boundaries and labels like 'intellectual property,' 'copyright' and 'plagiarism.' Even the idea of history was arbitrary and accuracy was not important in the term that it is today, so the assertion that the chansons de geste were either written, composed or read by either jongleurs or troubadours, or even poets, must be made with caution. For an overview of thedifferences between jongleurs, troubadours and their performances/composition, I recommend: �Lafitte-Houssat, Jacques. Troubadours et cours d'amour. 1st ed. Vol. 422, Que sais-je? Paris: Presses Universitaires de France, 1950. Certainly more recent volumes and studies have been undertaken, but communis opinio seems to be that there was a general ambiguity of authorship and genre, that can even be traced across the Rhine.Peaky beaky (talk) 03:21, 5 March 2008 (UTC)
Basics edit
The main body of this article contains virtually no inline citations, making sources unclear and impossible to distinguish from individual opinions and original research. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.19.197.84 (talk) 00:29, 29 May 2009 (UTC)
Origins edit
When someone gets a chance, this article could really use a brief section on the disputed topic of origins (Gaston Paris, J. Bédier, F. Lot, etc.) and on the dating of the oldest chansons. Thanks! NYArtsnWords (talk) 23:03, 8 May 2012 (UTC)
- Update: I added a section on origins. Let me know if there are problems. NYArtsnWords (talk) 07:42, 11 May 2012 (UTC)
Requested move edit
Nuclear codes?! edit
Not an expert, but I'd guess thus whole paragraph is a joke:
"Another theory is that it was written down shortly after the events occurred but kept within the family by descendants of Charlemagne in France, as it is statistically probably easier to get the nuclear codes from every country with nukes than it is to get some of Charlemagne’s descendants to willingly share their books much less to ever get them to shut up from singing." BjornVDM (talk) 08:03, 13 March 2021 (UTC)