Talk:Carabinier

Canadian Carabiniers

Les Fusiliers Mont-Royal was known as the Les Carabiniers Mont-Royal once...

65.94.252.195 (talk) 08:40, 6 November 2009 (UTC)

Erased etymology

Everybody welcome user "ZjarriRrethues". He is famous for guarding articles related to Albania and deleting references refering to Greece. He just deleted a reference to the etymology of carabinier, the only existing opinion on etymology if I'm not mistaken:

"The word is derived from the identical French word carabinier, formerly carabin. The term was first used in West Europe for units of Balkanian light cavalry and infantry brought to France from Italy in 16th c. The word "carabins" literally means "seamen" in Greek and comes from the medieval Greek word "caravi" (boat, ship), since these soldiers were also seamen and were transported by ships.
"

[[1]]--Euzen (talk) 19:07, 17 November 2010 (UTC)

The generally accepted link with "carbine" - a light musket or (later) rifle used by this category of troops seems a far more likely origin than tracing the word to "Balkan light cavalry and infantry brought to France and Italy in 16th c." To my knowledge there is no record of Balkan troops being employed by France in the 16th Century or indeed at any time except briefly during the Napoleonic Wars. Perhaps there is some confusion here with "hussars". 121.73.91.201 (talk) 20:39, 18 November 2010 (UTC)

The etymology is disputed, and the one by Sathas is not reflected in more recent treatments and appears to be outdated. OED (s.v. "carabin") gives several hypotheses, but doesn't mention the "karavi" one. The oldest attested form is carabin (16th century French).

• According to one hypothesis, it may be from earlier calabrin, which would mean "Calabrian".
• The same earlier form, calabrin, may also have been transferred from the name of a type of medieval siege engine, calabre, whose name in turn would have developed from Late Latin chadabula < catabola, i.e. ultimately from Gr. καταβολή.
• According to the Online Etymological Dictionary [2], "[o]ne far-fetched theory connects it to O.Fr. escarrabin "corpse-bearer during the plague," lit. (probably) "carrion beetle," said to have been an epithet for archers from Flanders." This same hypothesis is given as the only only etymology also in Babiniotis' Lexiko tis Neas Ellinikis Glossas (s.v. καραμπίνα). It would lead back to Latin/Greek scarabaeus. No mention of the "ship" etymology there either.

The derivation from karavi is also inherently implausible, since there is no obvious way how modern Greek /v/ in karavi could have turned back into /b/ in the western languages (and the Greek (re-?)loan karambina).

That said, the battle-ground mentality expressed by Euzen in the title of this thread is plain unacceptable. I strongly recommend taking his case to WP:AE soon. Fut.Perf. ☼ 10:08, 19 November 2010 (UTC)

Well, I changed the title to something less shooty. I thought for a moment that a discussion on guns could possibly deserve some extra adrenaline.--Euzen (talk) 18:52, 20 November 2010 (UTC)

References

Etymology

Let's stick to the etymology of carabine, carabinier etc. The connection with the Gr. Karavi or Karavos is mentioned in western etymological dictionaries like this:

G. W. Lemon (1783) , English etymology, London.

"CARBINE, or rather carabine, Καράβιον, navicula, ... Hisp. carabo, navigii genus, ... , oblong like a boat, or a crab. ..."

The author has a good knowledge of Greek and Latin and goes back to the original ancient Gr. meaning of "crab". He recognizes also the connection with ships (naviculi, navigii). He just fails to find the connection with the mercenaries from the Balkans because this is a minor event of the French history. The interested user may find some info in article stratioti. The etymology was erased from there because it is Greek and no other was provided.--Euzen (talk) 18:43, 20 November 2010 (UTC)

In 1783, etymology as a serious linguistic discipline didn't yet exist, just as linguistics as a serious discipline didn't yet exist. Any etymological claims published before the establishment of modern historical linguistics in the 19th century is of no value whatsoever. That book by G. W. Lemon is a lovely work and good for many a smile, but not more. Fut.Perf. ☼ 19:32, 20 November 2010 (UTC)

I wouldn't argue with an expert administrator. I suppose you can clear up also the etymology of Hussar because it is very messy for the moment.--Euzen (talk) 21:44, 20 November 2010 (UTC)

Should we probably respell the main entry as carabineer, not carabinier? Google hits tend to give more results with carabineer than carabinier. Also English dictionaries seem to favor the spelling carabineer that carabinier.46.147.182.231 (talk) 12:41, 24 May 2011 (UTC)

The French horse carabiniers under Napoleon.

The French horse carabiniers suffered several defeat, not just at Waterloo. They were routed by the Russian Chevaliers and Horse Guards at Borodino in 1812. And they fled before the Austrian (Hungarian) hussars at Leipzig in October 1813.

Rilliet from the 1st Cuirassiers witnessed the encounter at Leipzig. The 1st Carabiniers were in front and General Sebastiani was to the right of the regiment: all at once a mass of enemy cavalry, mainly Hungarian hussars, rode furiously down on the carabiniers. 'Bravo!' cried the general, laughing and waving the riding crop which was the only weapon that he designed to use. This will be charming; hussars charging the horse carabiniers. But when the Hungarians were 100 paces away, the 1st Carabiniers turned about and fled leaving behind their brave general ! They hastily rode back on to the 2nd Carabiniers and both regiments hooved away.

It was such a disgrace that when after battle a group of carabiniers entered a farm seeking quarters, the cuirassiers from the 5th Regiment teased them: If you want hospitality, try the Hungarian hussars ! The Saxon cavalry also had young soldiers in their ranks but performed wonders at Leipzig. Marshal Macdonald describes another combat with the carabiniers: My cavalry came up at the right time and performed very well but the Horse Carabiniers did very badly. I saw with my own eyes, 10 sabre-lengths away, how one enemy squadron overthrew them. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 72.251.15.109 (talk) 18:21, 8 March 2013 (UTC)

External links modified

Hello fellow Wikipedians,

I have just modified 2 external links on Carabinier. Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:

• Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20090213233744/http://home.wanadoo.nl/g.vanuythoven/1815%20Netherlands%20Army.htm to http://home.wanadoo.nl/g.vanuythoven/1815%20Netherlands%20Army.htm
• Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20090213233744/http://home.wanadoo.nl/g.vanuythoven/1815%20Netherlands%20Army.htm to http://home.wanadoo.nl/g.vanuythoven/1815%20Netherlands%20Army.htm

When you have finished reviewing my changes, you may follow the instructions on the template below to fix any issues with the URLs.

This message was posted before February 2018. After February 2018, "External links modified" talk page sections are no longer generated or monitored by InternetArchiveBot. No special action is required regarding these talk page notices, other than regular verification using the archive tool instructions below. Editors have permission to delete these "External links modified" talk page sections if they want to de-clutter talk pages, but see the RfC before doing mass systematic removals. This message is updated dynamically through the template {{source check}} (last update: 18 January 2022).

• If you have discovered URLs which were erroneously considered dead by the bot, you can report them with this tool.
• If you found an error with any archives or the URLs themselves, you can fix them with this tool.

Cheers.—InternetArchiveBot (Report bug) 08:10, 20 December 2017 (UTC)

Carabiniers were introduced before Napoleon

In the current article, we state, "Carabiniers were first introduced during the Napoleonic wars in Europe." I know that we cite David Chandler's "The Campaigns of Napoleon" as a source, but this is not correct. Carabiniers were introduced at least a generation before, in the Seven Years War, and possibly even earlier. The Austrians had added carabinier companies to their cuirassier regiments during the Seven Years War, to provide additional firepower. The French already had some cavalry regiments which they designated as carabiniers. Best regardsTheBaron0530 (talk) 16:54, 19 May 2018 (UTC)theBaron0530

Yes by Joseon Dynasty, not by European.Kadrun (talk) 03:37, 4 March 2022 (UTC)