Open main menu

UntitledEdit

explicitly agreed not to use IP addresses when editing Balkans articles.

See Wikipedia:Requests for arbitration/Macedonia#December 2008 this page is protected from editing by new users and unregistered uses for six months -- PBS (talk) 10:39, 2 December 2008 (UTC)

Edit restrictionsEdit

See Wikipedia:Requests for arbitration/Macedonia#December 2008 - February 2009

Lull in the discussionEdit

The following are current discussions. One should not archive discussions with recent comments. See archive policy.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Help:Archiving_a_talk_page

"It is customary to periodically archive old discussions on a talk page when that page becomes too large.

Decisions about when to archive, and what may be the optimal length for a talk page, are made according to the Wikipedia policy of consensus for each case. If possible, archive talk pages during a lull in discussion, thus maintaining the context of a discussion by not cutting it off in progress."

Archiving discussions that are obviously active without consensus is not consistent with wiki policy. Fairview360 (talk) 17:27, 16 February 2009 (UTC)

As user:Osli73 is no longer involved in these discussions.[1] I have archived the page as there is little point in continuing the previous sections which were structured to try to reach a consensus between his POV and those of some other editors. The cleanest thing to do was to archive the page those still involved in editing this page can start new sections as they become necessary. --PBS (talk) 17:46, 16 February 2009 (UTC)

PBS has no right to unilaterally archive active discussions. There is obviously not a consensus on archiving these discussions. The page, as is, is not too large. It appears Osli73 is not banned from discussion pages but rather editing and may wish to continue these discussions. Even if Osli73 is not interested in these discussions, other editors may wish to continue these discussions. Fairview360 (talk) 22:21, 17 February 2009 (UTC)

Until such time as Osli73 agrees not to use IP addresses I would not consider it appropriate for him to edit Balkans article talk pages.

Besides as no one but you have posted to this page in the last few days and no one has posted a reply to your question there clearly is a lull in the discussion. clearing the page and starting a new discussion makes it more likely that your question will be spotted. So I am yet again removing the archived text. --PBS (talk) 17:30, 20 February 2009 (UTC)

Osli behavior does not change truth of his words. Philip Baird Shearer and all editors here are against him. But they can attack the way he acts but not erase what he says. Fairview is fool but now he says right thing. Philip Baird Shearar have no reason to delete Osli edits or put them where no person look.—Preceding unsigned comment added by 64.61.104.254 (talkcontribs) 16:57, 21 February 2009
I am neither for or against Osli73. The talk page was twice the size of the recommended size for a page, so it was time it was archived. Osli postings are not erased they are archived. If anyone wants to continue the discussion they can do so by linking to the old section in the archive and making a new point, but talk pages get archived and there is no reason why this one should not be. --PBS (talk) 17:23, 21 February 2009 (UTC)

Philip Baird Shearer, why do you act so arbitrarily? Fairview360 made a perfectly reasonable comment. I haven't been able to visit here recently. Now I have to go digging in the archive to find out what's gone on. You didn't have to archive everything, that's just inconsiderate. Opbeith (talk) 21:03, 21 March 2009 (UTC)

No reply, either. Opbeith (talk) 12:04, 5 February 2010 (UTC)

Still not bothered to reply, another year later. Opbeith (talk) 20:31, 8 February 2011 (UTC)

PBS writes, and having writ, moves on. Another year and a half. Opbeith (talk) 15:35, 10 August 2012 (UTC)

NumbersEdit

For previous discussion see /Archive 4#Numbers
So then what does wikipedia do with sources like MacKenzie? Fairview360 (talk) 22:27, 17 February 2009 (UTC)

Predrag MatvejevićEdit

By what criteria is his opinion relevant??--Añtó| Àntó (talk) 16:35, 22 September 2009 (UTC)

Deletion of background materialEdit

I've reverted BobbytheMazarin's undiscussed deletion of the background to the arrival of the "mujahideen". Information about Bosnia and the Bosnian Muslims being the target of the Greater Serbia project and Croat opportunism and the the impact of non-intervention by the international community is crucial to the context. I agree that some careful rewriting and thoughtful abbreviation would be useful but nevertheless the background information is essential. Opbeith (talk) 21:01, 13 August 2010 (UTC)

Origin & motivesEdit

Currently the article states that "some" of the mujahideen were humanitarian workers or criminals. A bit odd to only state the exceptions on not that most were "foreign volunteers from Europe seeking to wage a jihad, or “holy struggle”, against the Christian Serbs and Croats." (According to an article by Kohlman on the topic which i found) http://www.aina.org/reports/tabmnie.pdf Bobbythemazarin (talk) 08:50, 23 July 2013 (UTC)

Shia involvementEdit

There's an constant act on this page by the people who non-stop remove information on the Shia involvement in the Bosnian War. We all understand that the Saudi wahhabism spreads like a wildfire across Bosnia nowadays, but that doesn't mean that Wikipedia should be censored too. Sourced fragment that is constantly removed:

Aside from the Sunni and Wahabi mujahideen, Shia Iran was one of the very first Muslim countries to provide support for besieged Bosniaks (predominantly Sunni Muslim, and ascribe to the Hanafi school of thought). Iran supplied two-thirds of the total received in weapons and ammunition by the Bosnian Muslim forces during the 1992-95 war. From May, 1994 to January, 1996, Iran transported over 5,000 tons of weapons and military equipment to Bosnia.[18] Iran not only sent much needed supplies but also fighters. Lebanese Shia Hezbollah had also its fighters in the Bosnian war. Robert Baer, a CIA agent stationed in Sarajevo during the war, later claimed that “In Sarajevo, the Bosnian Muslim government is a client of the Iranians . . . If it’s a choice between the CIA and the Iranians, they’ll take the Iranians any day.” By war’s end, public opinion polls showed some eighty-six percent of the Bosnian Muslim population expressed a positive attitude toward Iran.[19] All Shia foreign advisors and fighters withdrew from Bosnia at the end of conflict.

Sources include:

[18] http://serbianna.com/blogs/savich/archives/56

Serbianna is a blog by the Carl Kosta Savich, a Serbian-American historian whose work has been cited on the US Holocaust Memorial Museum website in Washington DC and the Holocaust and Genocide Studies website of the University of Minnesota, among some. His approach towards the topic of Croats, Albanians or Bosniaks can be biased but he has no reason to favor any Islamic school over different, moreover, articles criticizes Iran's involvement in the Balkans.

[19] http://www.worldaffairsjournal.org/article/iran-balkans-history-and-forecast

World Affairs Journal is a US based, highly respected, scholarly magazine that takes no sides.

As per Wikipedia's rules. If information on the Shia involvement will keep being constantly removed without giving any credible justification, then the article should be blocked. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.90.57.129 (talk) 03:29, 23 June 2014 (UTC)

Savich's Serbianna blog is not even worth discussing. But nice try. Yes, World Affairs is respected, but it doesn't prevent its editors from writing opinionated/editorialized pieces. That is quite often the purpose of magazines. Gordon N. Bardos operates on the hypothesis, or P-O-V, that Iran maintained intimate connections with the Bosnian government, and that is entirely fine. But until he publishes a recognized and substantiated systematic analysis of such an hypothesis (i.e. a reliable source) his claims only remain a personal view, and is of little to no relevance to an encyclopedic article, alike Robert Bauer's statement. Opinions and personal beliefs are in fact a dime (you'd be suprised by how many columnists there are out there), but completely irrelevant if not somehow related to a scholarly analysis. Or do you want to write "Bardos of World Affairs thinks the Bosnians collaborated with the Iranians, and therefore quotes CIA agent Bauer as saying "If it’s a choice between the CIA and the Iranians, they’ll take the Iranians any day"..." You've proved absolutely nothing, but simply given two POVs. Praxis Icosahedron ϡ (TALK) 03:53, 23 June 2014 (UTC)

Youtube as a source?Edit

The source for several claims about Abu Hamza Rabia, is a Youtube of an Al Jazeera documentary (I didn't have time/wasn't willing to watch all of it). A Google search of 'Abu Hamza Rabia Bosnia' had two hits that actually mentioned 'Bosnia', both of them WP pages. Doesn't such a claim need better sourcing? Pincrete (talk) 16:16, 7 July 2015 (UTC)

I've left an enquiry here Wikipedia:Reliable_sources/Noticeboard#Use_of_online_video_as_source_on_Bosnian_mujahideen there are other issues with this text as we are linking to the dab Abu Hamza which could mean Abu Hamza Rabia OR Abu Hamza al-Masri, who is a BLP, though unlikely to complain about being portrayed as leader of Bosnian mujahideen.Pincrete (talk) 18:44, 8 July 2015 (UTC)

Update, for the time being, I've removed the offending text, until we at least know WHICH Abu Hamza and whether there is better info.Pincrete (talk) 14:23, 9 July 2015 (UTC)

Bosnian mujahideen - event sequence and bias in articleEdit

Article states that "Following the declaration of independence of the Republic of Bosnia and Herzegovina, the Serbs attacked different parts of the country." But there was a event on day of declaration of independence that preceded Serbs reaction. Muslims members of Green berets paramilitary Islamic formation attacked wedding ceremony on 01.03.1992. attended by Serbs and killed one Serb and wounded Serb orthodox priest. This was a first killing that led later to full scale war in Bosnia and Herzegovina. After that came talks between Franjo Tudjman and Slobodan Milosevic and Serbs uprising that in first moment was consisted with various political declarations and setting up barricades in order to protect predominantly Serbs neighborhoods in big cities and villages with Serbs that bordered villages with Muslim population. No attacks by Serbs was carried and there is no mention that author of Islamic Declaration who led Bosnia Muslims rejected all plans even one that he signed that could lead to peaceful resolution of crisis in Bosnia and Herzegovina prior declaration of independence that led to thousands of mujaheddin flock Bosnia. Role in inviting foreign fighters by author of Islamic Declaration and his stances about other factions in Bosnia war is very little explained. All crimes commit-ed by mujaheddin in absence of ICTY stronger verdicts and trials are explained in article section called "propaganda". If no indictment by any court in world automatically means that there is no crime then something is wrong with such approach. On numerous occasion ICTY has shown biased approach against Serbs to such extent that they had to remove their own judges in some proceedings. No verdict doesn't means there were no crimes or how to explain that there is not a single indictment against Belgian King Leopold II or for criminals who were cutting organs from Serbs in Kosovo (court for war crimes in Kosovo still is not formed and no one is sentenced despite criminals are known) and many others cases. There is no mention in this article how Islamic Declaration written in last century late 60' inspired mujaheddin around the world and why many of terrorist including Islamic State is using many postulates from that declaration as their view of Islamic world. There is no mention in article prior to so called "Serbs attacked different parts of the country" Muslim Patriotic league had 120.000 members divided into paramilitary brigades. Or what Muslim and Croats did to Serbs in WWII a one major event that was in memories of many Serbs living in Bosnia when Muslims started to do everything that is needed to again provoke war.

A reader of this could conclude that cutting heads of Serbs and Croats and numerous other crimes by Mujaheddin and their supporters in Bosnia despite many evidence and documentary videos made by many televisions or mujaheddin while committing war atrocities and all other findings are pure propaganda and never happened because they lack a verdict.

Article in start obliviously intend to present that Serbs attacked different parts of Bosnia without any reason and on very biased ways. Like there was not any previous events that led them to defend their life's in country they lived because they with reason feel threatened and even murdered. There is no mention that in Bosnia Serbs where constitutional nation and without their approval any declaration of independence was illegitimate.

This article in way it is composed when you start to read it leads a reader in such way they is clearly not neutral and is following one pattern - that Serbs stated war without reason and Muslim was only a victims that need to defend themselves and Mujaheddin are some innocent faction of people because they are not indicted.

I tried to balance such approach in this article by changing part of article by citing facts about events sequence and give different view of court procedures in light of existing facts about crimes committed - all with appropriate references - but article was always for different reasons revised to previous state and never was discussed here what was inappropriate in my edits or references. 178.149.27.251 (talk) 20:52, 21 November 2015 (UTC)

External links modifiedEdit

Hello fellow Wikipedians,

I have just modified 11 external links on Bosnian mujahideen. Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:

When you have finished reviewing my changes, please set the checked parameter below to true or failed to let others know (documentation at {{Sourcecheck}}).

As of February 2018, "External links modified" talk page sections are no longer generated or monitored by InternetArchiveBot. No special action is required regarding these talk page notices, other than regular verification using the archive tool instructions below. Editors have permission to delete the "External links modified" sections if they want, but see the RfC before doing mass systematic removals. This message is updated dynamically through the template {{sourcecheck}} (last update: 15 July 2018).

  • If you have discovered URLs which were erroneously considered dead by the bot, you can report them with this tool.
  • If you found an error with any archives or the URLs themselves, you can fix them with this tool.


Cheers.—InternetArchiveBot (Report bug) 09:47, 6 November 2016 (UTC)

Per WP:TITLE and specifically WP:NAMINGCRITERIAEdit

WP:TITLE and WP:NAMINGCRITERIA

My question would be simple and in the spirit of neutrality: were these people Bosnians and are they still present there in a same role they played during Bosnian War? If "no" is the answer to my first question, another follows: why is this article then titled "Bosnian Mujahideen", since the name is extremely suggestive and could mislead readers to conclude they were/are Bosnians them self indeed, which, then, is by itself problematic regarding WP:NPOV, WP:TITLE and WP:NAMINGCRITERIA, among other. There is no previous history of the phenomenon in the country and among its Muslim population - as suddenly appeared during the war they disappeared afterward. Title which tries sneakingly to insert suggestion that they were Bosnian phenomenon is highly contentious and can't help the cause.--౪ • • • ౪• • • 99° ४ 21:51, 29 April 2017 (UTC)

Santasa99, this is your second undiscussed move of the article. Please request a move as per process.--Zoupan 09:32, 30 April 2017 (UTC)

3rd Corps and 7th BrigadeEdit

Re this edit. The text says explicitly that the mujahideen were not in any sense officially connected to the 3rd Corps or 7th Brigade: "the foreign Mujahedin established at Poljanice camp were not officially part of the 3rd Corps or the 7th Brigade" and

"the ICTY Appeals Chamber in April 2008 concluded that the relationship between the 3rd Corps of the Bosnian Army headed by Hadžihasanović and the El Mudžahid detachment was not one of subordination but was instead close to overt hostility since the only way to control the detachment was to attack them as if they were a distinct enemy force"

Are there refs that contradict this?Pincrete (talk) 18:22, 29 September 2018 (UTC)

That is actually not sourced. The reff 17 just links to the ICTY main page. FkpCascais (talk) 21:40, 29 September 2018 (UTC)
Your first statement is also badly sourced, it is the reff 11 which should point out the page. FkpCascais (talk) 21:43, 29 September 2018 (UTC)
Page 6 of the reff 11 actually says:
"During the months preceding the establishment of the El Mujahed detachment, the Trial Chamber finds that the foreign Mujahedin established at Poljanice camp were not officially part of the 3rd Corps or the 7th Brigade of the ABiH. However, as regards the “local” Mujahedin, the Chamber found that some of them belonged de jure to units of the 3rd Corps. The same goes for members of the 7th and 306th Brigade, such as Ramo Durmiš, who left their own units to join the Mujahedin at Poljanice camp."
"In terms of the de facto relationship between the Mujahedin and the 3rd Corps, the Chamber pointed out that there are significant indicia of a subordinate relationship between the Mujahedin and the accused prior to 13 August 1993."
Leaving out the "However..." part mentioned just next seems cherry-picking. FkpCascais (talk) 21:50, 29 September 2018 (UTC)
Page 9 of same source says further more:
"The Trial Chamber was furthermore of the opinion that, as soon as the El Mujahed detachment was incorporated into his forces, the accused had information allowing him to conclude that there was a real and reasonably foreseeable risk of violations by members of the El Mujahed detachment. He was familiar with their violent and dangerous behaviour. He did not instruct the members of the detachment in complying with the most basic rules of international humanitarian law. In spite of this alarming information, he decided to gain military advantage with the detachment although nothing compelled the 3rd Corps to use the Mujahedin in combat."
Seems they were incorporated. FkpCascais (talk) 22:03, 29 September 2018 (UTC)
This points to some connections between some BM - this isn't the same thing as ALL the BM being officially part of the 3rd and 7th - which is what including in the infobox implies. Either way, the full position should be in the text before it is in the infobox (which is meant to be a summary of text). Pincrete (talk) 18:37, 30 September 2018 (UTC)

I removed the Taliban flag from the infoboxEdit

The infobox contained a black flag, crowded with a phrase, in Arabic. I clicked on the flag, and the image description said it was the Taliban's flag. Well, that didn't seem right. So I trimmed it. Geo Swan (talk) 04:09, 7 November 2018 (UTC)

Return to "Bosnian mujahideen" page.