Talk:Book of Ruth

old talk

I also moved around a few lines and moved the section on Jewish and Christian views to the end of the article. This will hopefully make the article less focussed on a christian perspective.

RGW 01:30, 2 May 2006 (UTC)

Monday, May 1, 2006

I believe that any concerns stated in regard to the article have been addressed.

Saturday, April 29, 2006,

Thank you for your comments regarding the significance of the book to Jews. I have added your note to my article. As the Hebrew Bible is most significant to Jews and Christians I have added the note to clarify that although important to both, each has their own perspective. The last paragraph makes it clear that the comment is directed towards a Christian perspective -- who also hold the book dear.

I agree about the last paragraph specifically, and much of the article is also biased towards Christian interpretation. In many ways, most of what Christians and Jews would draw from the text would be the same, but drawing lessons for the meaning of Jesus's life to Christians is irrelevant to Jews, so it must be made clear that the book of Ruth has a unique significance to Jews. In particular, Ruth is celebrated as a convert to Judaism who understood Jewish principles and took them to heart. This book is dear to the hearts of Jews who are Jews-by-choice. -- slb 4/27/06

The very last paragraph on this page has a distinct Christian bias. Dreadpiratetif 17:04, 27 April 2006 (UTC)

Thursday, April 27, 2006

The article was updated. The research with bibliography and article were completed for a course at Acadia Divinity College and includes material from previous article.

I removed:

The author of this book was thought to be Samuel according to Jewish tradition. However, modern Biblical scholars believe that this book was written to protest the ethnic cleansing policies prevalent during the restoration of the Kingdom of Judah under the domination of the Persian Empire. During that time, there was a strong movement to expel all peoples who were deemed not to have a sufficiently Jewish ancestry to prevent a reemergence of the perceived pollution of foreign faiths that brought God's wrath on the nation.

The book opposed that attitude by trying to illustrate that foreigners can be just as faithful as any Jew to the point where they must surely have God's favour if their descendants can include such chosen ones as David.

Because RK removed the same exact (or exceedingly similar) section from Ruth, and Danny agreed that the section should be rewritten (I think). In any case, whatever is the result at Talk:Ruth should apply here too, and these two articles should maybe be integrated? Tuf-Kat

I agree. These two articles should be merged. RK 14:43, Jul 5, 2004 (UTC)

Ruth's sister's name

Isn't Ruth's sister's name spelled "Orpah" in English? (I believe most English Christian Bibles since KJV use that spelling.) Or is that a Christian mistake? -- Mpolo 16:00, Sep 11, 2004 (UTC)

Orpah was NOT Ruth's sister, as I can see from having checked Chapter 1, but sister-in-law. It refers to the women as daughters-in-law of Naomi and wives of their respective husbands.Cloptonson (talk) 20:14, 21 April 2015 (UTC)

Why the {} sign/s?

Why were one or more of these sign/s: {{NPOV}}{{expansion}}{{Cleanup}} signs placed on this page without any discussion, explanation or reasoning? (And why create a redundant category Category:Bible stories that is now up for a vote for deletion at Wikipedia:Categories for deletion#Category:Bible stories?) IZAK 07:05, 18 Nov 2004 (UTC)

WP Saints?

Per the discussion at Talk:Book of Joshua, I will remove the "Saints" project template here, as The Book of Ruth is not really a saint topic. Instead, I'll add a WP Bible template. Information about Ruth the person should be its own article. Alekjds ^talk 20:47, 6 March 2007 (UTC)

Perhaps it should be it's own article, but at this point it isn't. As such, the only biographical information available on this historical personage and saint is to be found here. When the article on Ruth is created, though, the banner would clearly be more appropriate there. John Carter 23:47, 5 July 2007 (UTC)

Cleanup required

The article jumps into discussions of controversy about authorship and themes before it tells what the text /story actually IS. There is only 1 inline citation making verifiability nearly impossible - as it stands, the article appears mostly Original Research.207.69.137.11 16:05, 15 September 2007 (UTC)

Storyline

Isn't it the general standard for articles on books and other texts to have a synopsis of the text? I have been familiar with the book since young childhood, so I know what happens, but I'd be lost if I weren't familiar with it. For example: who are Elimelech and the son born to Naomi? If I didn't know the text, I'd have no clue that it was her late husband and her grandson whom she effectively adopted. Nyttend (talk) 21:15, 11 December 2007 (UTC)

I've just added a synopsis. It should have links in it (e.g. for levirate marriage) but I've no idea how to do that. I hope the synopsis is clear to someone who doesn't know the story - feel free to make it better!

Well, better get back to work! KMcA (talk) 20:55, 11 February 2008 (UTC)

Having done some research on levirate marriage, it isn't fair to call this unambiguously an example of levirate marriage. Many of the ceremonial aspects are completely wrong and on top of that the obligation only extended to immidiate brothers according to that law. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 216.236.251.130 (talk) 16:16, 13 October 2008 (UTC)

I've expanded the synopsis a little to note the use of the word "redeemer" (the Themes section rightly notes that redemption is a major theme of the book), and to note also the genealogy of David with which the book ends. Please feel free to change tis if you think it's not quite right. PiCo (talk) 14:11, 1 March 2008 (UTC)

It seems a touch misleading to claim that Boaz was "therefore obliged" to marry Ruth - the principle of levirate marriage applies to brother-in-laws of the widow; Boaz is a "close relative" - but even then he is not the closest; the closer relative is keen to redeem the land until he realises that to do so he would have to marry Ruth - he is not treated as a breaker of the levirate marriage principle (for example not spat on); instead he transacts as many other middle-eastern transactions took place - with the exchange of a sandal. Epideme (talk) 02:37, 26 November 2011 (UTC)

The Analysis describes Naomi as receiving the payment for the redemption of the land; whilst the text does not explicitly say who was paid for the redemption of the land, it would be fair to assume that it was not Naomi - having been absent for over 10 years, the land was probably sold (or more accurately the harvests were sold) until the Jubilee year. Thus someone else "owned" the harvests - it was to them that the payment would be made to "redeem" the land and bring it back within the family - which then had to include Ruth. Epideme (talk) 02:46, 26 November 2011 (UTC)

Chilion vs. Kilion

"Chilion" is the spelling used in the 18th-century edited version of the King James Version, which is pretty much the traditional standard for spelling names of Biblical figures in the English language, so that spelling should be used here, unless there's a very specific reason for using a different spelling. AnonMoos (talk) 06:58, 29 February 2008 (UTC)

Date of the book of Ruth

I removed a final clause from the "Date" subsection which said that most scholars place the book before the Babylonian period. In fact most scholars put it in the Persian period (post-Exilic). PiCo (talk) 03:58, 3 March 2008 (UTC)

R.K. Phillips

There was a line in the authorship section putting forward the possibility that Ruth was an Israelite. This is quite a contention, since the text explicitly says she's a Moabite. The authority given was an R.K. Phillips - the only person by that name I can find on the WWW is the pastor of some small church somewhere in America - in other words, not a notable source. So I'm deleting this line. PiCo (talk) 03:20, 6 March 2008 (UTC)

Wajdi's Vandalism

Someone (presumably named Wajdi) at the IP 151.204.66.15 changed the text in four places, changing one instance each of the names Naomi, Ruth, Obed, and Jesse to Wajdi. It has been fixed, but it was recent so it might recur. Smw543 (talk) 22:01, 17 March 2008 (UTC)

Her Page

How come she doesnt have a page of her own, Boaz has his and many languages have made a page for her except the english, I know majority of the info about her is kept here but she still deserves to have a small wikipedia page for herslef just like other minor charectors have and also her article could talk about presepectives and her importance in Judaism and Christianity88.201.1.30 (talk) 21:35, 22 October 2010 (UTC)

Somebody apparently created Ruth (biblical figure)... AnonMoos (talk) 06:45, 23 October 2010 (UTC

bias

As a professional biblical scholar, I find it incredible that this article about a Jewish, Old Testament, book can be so lopsidedly Evangelical Christian, especially in its notes and suggested reading. I've heard that Jewish scholarship knows a little bit about this book, too. Drlithoi (talk) 02:26, 2 May 2012 (UTC)SER, May 1, 2012

Re the phrase, "the Bible's main theme of redemptive history" and other similar expressions--this is biased interpretation, not description. That the collection of books comprising the Bible even has a "main theme" is a position with which many scholars would take issue. Fintushel (talk) 07:10, 27 May 2012 (UTC)

Authorship and Date

The section on the authorship and date of Ruth is pathetically small. It only mentions in passing that it's traditionally ascribed to the prophet Samuel, but "it is now regarded by revisionist scholars as being a novella of probable hellenistic-era dating.". Is there any evidence to support the latter? Where does the traditional view come from? Are revisionist scholars trustworthy in these matters? Point is, it needs expansion. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 209.217.122.179 (talk) 15:15, 4 June 2012 (UTC)

Not too much is known for certain, and there's a wide range of speculation. It's not necessarily Hellenistic, but it's not very early, either. Many have speculated that it's a response to post-Exilic tendencies to endogamy, which could place it in the Persian period (possibly based on some earlier tradition or genealogical listing)... AnonMoos (talk) 16:56, 4 June 2012 (UTC)

Is there anything to back up the traditional view of authorship (written by the prophet Samuel)? Or do any findings utterly disprove the traditional view?--209.217.122.179 (talk) 14:23, 5 June 2012 (UTC)

Well, there's the fact that the Book of Ruth seems to refer to David as a revered historical figure, but according to II Samuel 25, Samuel died before David became king. I don't think that serious scholars have taken the idea of Samuel's authorship of Ruth very seriously for more than century... AnonMoos (talk) 13:03, 6 June 2012 (UTC)

The Overtly Sexual Plan

The cited source is much more indecisive about the sexual nature of the plan than the article. The source states: "In Hebrew, "feet" is sometimes used as a euphemism for the sexual organs. Is Ruth making a sexual advance? This is possible, but unlike Ruth 4:12, the text is not explicit, so although we may want to know whether there was or was not a sexual encounter, the ambiguity suggests this is not an integral part of the story." I have updated the text of the article to reflect this ambiguity. The other two reasons this plan was considered overtly sexual was not mentioned in the source at all, although I found some blogs and whatnot that could be used as sources instead. If I find one that seems reputable and not just a random Internet opinion I will replace the citation neededs. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 108.31.179.15 (talk) 03:03, 12 March 2015 (UTC)

You're misrepresenting what the source (West, in Eerdmans) says. It says Naomi's plan for Ruth and Boaz "is overtly sexual" (that's reflected in our article); and it says that Boaz's uncovered feet "is a euphemism for genitals." What you're quoting here is quite a different work, the IVP Woemn's Bible Commentary, which is not included in our bibliography - what led you to think it was our source? In any case, the IVP commentary isn't disagreeing with West - feet are quite often just feet, but in this particular passage from Ruth, they're not, and most scholars take a very different view of the integral nature of the sexual encounter between Ruth and Naomi (it led to the birth of the ancestor of David, and was therefore supremely important). PiCo (talk) 03:21, 17 March 2015 (UTC)

Homosexuality

This section of the article seems to keep coming and going. If it disappears again, I am going to request some level of protection on the page. It is merely one interpretation among several listed in the article, and should be treated as such. Sevey13 (talk) 00:58, 15 May 2015 (UTC)

Respectfully disagree. These "contempory interpretations" would be more accurately described as "fringe interpretations" - and it seems to have been originally added by editors pushing a LGBT agenda. AnotherNewAccount (talk) 21:23, 17 May 2015 (UTC)

Seems weird to delete it here when it's mentioned on The Bible and homosexuality and Homosexuality in the Hebrew Bible. However, it's not mentioned in the articles for Ruth (biblical figure) or Naomi (biblical figure), so maybe it's not essential here. Aristophanes68 (talk) 03:50, 26 May 2015 (UTC)

The topic of homosexuality in the bible is an interesting one, and certainly homosexual activity seemed to have been prevalent in parts of the ancient world without the negative influence of social mores seen in the modern world. But it's vulnerable to POV-pushing LGBT WP:ACTIVIST editors gratuitously inserting fringe material in order to "rub Christian readers' noses in homosexuality". I did however have a quick look at those two articles, and there is more salient information and, I believe, a better rationale for a homosexual interpretation. Perhaps those articles would be a better place to discuss the issue, rather than taking up several paragraphs on this article and risk giving undue weight to the entire notion.

The material I objected to and removed specifically was based on a weasel term ("some contemporary interpretations") - with a single solitary example provided by Rebecca Alpert, who is, frankly, on the looney tunes end of scholarly opinion. I am unhappy with the inclusion of ideologically-motivated fringe interpretations without further analysis. AnotherNewAccount (talk) 17:48, 26 May 2015 (UTC)

Did a quick search via Google Books "Book of Ruth lesbian'' and quite a bit of results pertaining to the Book of Ruth and Homosexuality showed up. I think WP:ACTIVIST isn't the appropiate policy to denounce such information. I best believe that the info. should stay. Any attempt to try and remove I would consider an act of censorship per WP:NOTCENSORED unless proven otherwise. — JudeccaXIII (talk) 23:21, 26 May 2015 (UTC)

I didn't object to the information on the grounds of WP:ACTIVIST, I objected on the grounds of WP:FRINGE. But I did a bit of research and it seems there are indeed a few scholars who note the lesbian possibility. In fact there seems to be enough material to provide a more comprehensive analysis than "oh, by the way, some scholars e.g. Rebecca Alpert think Ruth and Naomi were lesbians" which is the effect of the current text.

I shall however restore the removed section for the time being, with a view to improving it in the fullness of time. AnotherNewAccount (talk) 12:36, 27 May 2015 (UTC)

Notability of a fringe theory

The sources provided for the fringe theory are not notable. A fringe theory, if it is to be included into an existing Wikipedia article, must be notable, and to be notable, the topic must receive significant coverage in reliable sources that are independent of the subject. Otherwise it is not notable enough for a dedicated article in Wikipedia. Furthermore, the notability of a fringe theory must be judged by statements from verifiable and reliable sources, not the proclamations of its adherents.

Wikipedia's Content Guideline for fringe theories stipulates that "a fringe theory is considered notable enough for a dedicated article if it has been referenced extensively, and in a serious and reliable manner, by major publications that are independent of their promulgators and popularizers".

It is intersting to observe that for several months the only source available for this fringe theory was 1 (one!) source which merely had one sentence on the fringe theory: "Among feminist authors, perceptions of the book's message and value have varied widely, with some seeeing the story as a model for lesbian relationships (Alpert) and others a a celebration of the relationship between two strong and resourceful women (Brenner 1983)". Those Wikipedia Editors who regularly restored the deleted fringe theory are in violation of Wikpedia's core policy of Verifiability for exceptional claims. Exceptional claims, which significantly depart from the prevailing views, require multiple high quality sources. A high quality source for a fringe theory, according to WP:FRIND must be independent of the subject. An independent reliable source is a source "that has no vested interest in a written topic and therefore it is commonly expected to describe the topic from a disinterested perspective".

Editor JudeccaXIII in particular is guilty of violating against WP:V, WP:RS, WP:FRINGE and point No 2d of WP:IUC in this article. On two occasions, JudeccaXIII added easy-to-spot unreliable sources and easy-to-spot irrelevant sources into the article while restoring the deleted fringe theory. With this edit, JudeccaXIII added an unreliable self-published source from the website of a religious organization to support his addition of the fringe theory. Some editors might wonder about this edit from JudeccaXIII, because it can be assumed that with this edit the editor is probably consciously trying to mislead other Wikipedia editors. This "source" which editor JudeccaXIII has provided in response to my kindly formulated request, has nothing to do with the fringe theory, and yet this editor even added a page number from that book, probably with the motive of hoping that he'll get away with it undetected. The source writes about this book, which is unrelated to the fringe theory.

Understand this, that I do not care if this fringe theory is added into this article or not. I simply don't care. What I do care about is that WP:V is adhered to at all times. So, if you want to re-add the fringe theory, please kindly take the requirements found in WP:FRINGE into consideration . Thank you. 93.135.2.182 (talk) 12:38, 5 July 2015 (UTC)

You're absolutely right about Fried Green Tomatoes at the Whistle Stop Cafe. I didn't realize I added that one, sorry. However, The other sources are reliable via from scholarly thoughts. The only source that mentions Rebecca Albert again is Pui-lan Kwok's Postcolonial Imagination and Feminist Theology. Yes, there is only one sentence using Rebecca Albert's interpretation. The whole thing needs to be rewritten, but sources I can say are abundant. You can look for yourself via Google Books: Book of Ruth lesbian Either way, this was discussed as keep with work to be done. The thought of lesbianism in the Book of Ruth isn't a minor view. — JudeccaXIII (talk) 18:19, 5 July 2015 (UTC)

So far as I can see, the idea isn't fringe (it's mentioned in multiple mainstream works by well-respected scholars such as Axum). The references given are totally appropriate, too - these are important scholars with established reputations in the field. My only problem is that I doubt it's worth a whole section - maybe a para under a new section of reception history? PiCo (talk) 02:22, 10 July 2015 (UTC)

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Original research

@Primal Groudon: The Bible is not a WP:Reliable source. Your own analysis of the Bible is prohibited by WP:OR, as being your own POV about a WP:PRIMARY religious source. Tgeorgescu (talk) 00:45, 11 December 2019 (UTC)

I did not bring any original research into the article. As a matter of fact, I let the verse interpret itself. This is the opposite of original research. Whether you admit that or not if your choice. Primal Groudon (talk) 00:49, 11 December 2019 (UTC)

@Primal Groudon: You're not allowed to do that. The WP:RULES are against you. Stop before you get blocked for it. Tgeorgescu (talk) 00:50, 11 December 2019 (UTC)

Nowhere do the rules say anything against what I was doing. In fact, as I said a bunch of times, my edit did the opposite of what they were reverted for. Primal Groudon (talk) 00:54, 11 December 2019 (UTC)

@Primal Groudon: That's WP:Wikilawyering. The WP:RULES are very clear WP:CITE a WP:RS or be gone. In case you doubt, it applies to all Wikipedia editors, you have not been singled out for special treatment. Tgeorgescu (talk) 00:56, 11 December 2019 (UTC)

There appears to be many different actions that can be categorized as Wikipedia:Wikilawyering, none of them being what I was doing. Discussion concluded. Primal Groudon (talk) 01:01, 11 December 2019 (UTC)

@Primal Groudon: The opinion of the Wikipedia Community is that you're not allowed to analyze the Bible. No editor is allowed. And we don't believe that the Bible could analyze itself, see WP:NOTTHEOCRACY. Wikipedia does not endorse any religion, therefore it does not endorse Sola Scriptura. The Bible cannot interpret itself, but always has to be interpreted by WP:MAINSTREAM WP:SCHOLARSHIP. And don't fool yourself: you were assigning the 11th century dating to it, not the Bible. The Bible itself does not claim that the book is dating to any century. You were performing the analysis, not the Bible: the Bible is not WP:SCHOLARSHIP, nor is it WP:RS. So don't play word games with us, or you'll get blocked before you know what happened. The only deal you could possibly get here is: WP:CITE WP:MAINSTREAM WP:SCHOLARSHIP or be gone from this article. No experienced Wikipedia editor could offer you another deal. Tgeorgescu (talk) 03:37, 11 December 2019 (UTC)

Source	Status (legend)	Discussions			Uses
		List	Last	Summary
Bible		1 2 3	2018	The Bible is a WP:PRIMARY religious source that has been unfavourably compared to "a load of crap". A few editors consider the source usable in some cases. Its analysis by Wikipedia editors is prohibited by the policy on original research.	1

Yup, most germane comments seems to be:

The Bible is a primary historical source document, and should only be used on that basis. It says X, that doesn't mean we can say that X is true, but is verifiable that the Bible says X and that fact can be included in relevant articles. You can't interpret a primary source: "This bit says X and that bit says says Y, therefore Z" is not acceptable; "This says X and that says Y" is broadly acceptable. However, you shouldn't need to doyour own exegesis. Every part of the Bible has been the subject of detailed study by experts. If there's a particular historical event that interests you, experts will have written about it, explaining its context and meaning in minute detail. The works of those experts should be the references for anything other than simply repeating or paraphrasing or summarising what the Bible says. In this the Bible is no different from any other primary historical source. Angus McLellan (Talk) 00:38, 20 December 2007 (UTC)

This one is shorter:

The Bible, is at best, a primary source. I would not be surprised if there was not at least a book written on every single passage in the Bible. Just cite those if you want to mention the Biblical account of things. NW Talk 19:15, 9 March 2011 (UTC)

The reason is that we report Bible scholarship, we don't do Bible scholarship.

Source	Status (legend)	Discussions			Uses
		List	Last	Summary
Bible and every other holy book		1 2 3	2018	The Bible is a WP:PRIMARY source only suitable for attributed, relevant quotes and in compliance with other Wikipedia content policies and guidelines. Analysis of biblical content by Wikipedia editors is prohibited original research. Content that interprets or summarizes biblical passages or narratives should generally be cited to appropriate scholarly sources (for example, in the academic field of religious studies) and attributed when appropriate. Original research performed by Wikipedia editors upon holy books is prohibited by website policy. All claims about holy books have to be sourced to secondary scholarly sources.	1

I have restated it above. Tgeorgescu (talk) 01:40, 12 December 2019 (UTC)

@Primal Groudon:, you made this addition to the article:

• Ruth 4:22, the last verse of the book, mentions David, his father Jesse, and grandfather Obed, but none of David's descendants, indicating that the book was written before any of David's children were born or well-known, which points to a late 11th or early 10th century BC date for the text being written.

The part in italics references the Book of Ruth, the part in bold gives your personal interpretation. As an interpretation, it's original research, and hence was reverted. Hope this clarifies matters. Achar Sva (talk) 21:02, 13 December 2019 (UTC)

By long-standing practice and consensus, the entry upon the Bible, Quran and every other holy book has been added to Wikipedia:Reliable sources/Perennial sources. Tgeorgescu (talk) 21:59, 27 December 2019 (UTC)

Vaxorian has reverted disputed text, which is in violation of WP:OR and WP:RSP long-standing practice and consensus. Tgeorgescu (talk) 22:46, 1 January 2020 (UTC)

Classic of world literature? I think so, could it be said?

I am not a religious person, but consider the Book of Ruth to be of fundamental importance in the history of ancient literature that champions human rights against prejudices in the prevailing culture. The Book of Esther is another text I revere, but I like Ruth more. I don't want to edit the page myself, but couldn't something be said about what a precious piece of writing this is, for all ages, and believers and non-believers (like me) alike? Surely this book has had a documented impact on more than just the Judeo-Christian world that justly claims it. In its King James translation, for example, I'm willing to bet that it's one of the most quoted passages in English, along with the contemporaneous Shakespeare. (This example only intended to draw respectful attention to the reach of the Book of Ruth). Alan Canon (talk) 20:29, 20 July 2020 (UTC)

Edit war

WP:PROFRINGE edit war has been reported at WP:FTN. No sources are now given according to WP:CITELEAD.

You misunderstand WP:NPOV; it's not about finding a compromise between academia and religion. It is about accurately representing what academics say about religion. Jeppiz (talk) 18:07, 3 April 2021 (UTC)

The more serious problem in your arguments above is that you continously imply we should find some middle road between faith and scholarship. We should not, as that would be the opposite of WP:NPOV. I know many people misunderstand NPOV and think it's about meeting halfway. It is not; it's about representing the most reliable sources as accurately as possible. Jeppiz (talk) 09:52, 5 April 2021 (UTC)

Quoted by tgeorgescu (talk) 19:50, 28 May 2021 (UTC)

Recent vandalism

See WP:CENSOR and WP:NOBIGOTS. About islamists: just research the issue of the pictures of Muhammad. Oh, by the way: many Christians are modernists. So why modernist Bible scholarship would be attacking Christians? In fact, seen the Fundamentalist–Modernist controversy, only a minority of Christians are fundamentalists. And the screed of evangelicals is we don't want to be modernists, but we don't want to be fundamentalists, either. tgeorgescu (talk) 02:26, 8 August 2021 (UTC)

Another term for sexual intercourse is “uncovering the nakedness,” used repeatedly in a long list of persons with whom intercourse is prohibited: the mother, the sister, the aunt, daughter-in-law, sister-in-law, and so on.13 “Nakedness” means both male and female genitals, as do several parts of the lower extremities of the body in their vicinity, such as loins, thigh, heel, and especially feet, another frequent euphemism. For example, in the Bible as in other ancient literature we find vivid descriptions of the horrors of ancient siege warfare. One such description, anticipating the destruction of Jerusalem as divine punishment for the Israelites’ disobedience, warns that in those dire days a woman will eat her placenta, “the afterbirth that comes out from between her feet.”14 Using the same euphemism, the prophet Isaiah proclaims that Yahweh will punish the Israelites through the king of Assyria, who will shave off all their body hair—“the head, the hair of the feet, and even the beard”15—symbolically reducing them to weak prepubescent boys.

— Michael Coogan, God and Sex

The Song of Songs, an ancient biblical love poem that speaks frankly of towering breasts, flowing black locks, kissable lips, and the joy of sexual fulfillment, offers a particularly striking example of this phenomenon, but other biblical passages are nearly as forthright. Ruth, King David’s grandmother, conspires with her mother-in-law, Naomi, to seduce Boaz, one of Naomi’s wealthy relatives. “Uncovering his feet,” a Hebrew euphemism for uncovering a man’s genitals, Ruth succeeds at gaining a home for herself and for Naomi, a woman she has promised to love until they are parted by death. By loving both her mother-in-law and her partner, Boaz, Ruth’s bold desire secures a future for herself and her family. The love between Naomi and Ruth is paralleled by the devotion of Jonathan to David, a friendship so strong that Jonathan comes to love David more than he loves women. After Jonathan’s death, when David spies the beautiful Bathsheba bathing, he invites her for a sexual rendezvous in the palace, though he already had many other wives to enjoy. The child of their adultery dies, but Bathsheba later becomes pregnant with Solomon, the famously wise king and the purported author of the Song. In these biblical passages, sexual longing refuses to be limited to the love between a husband and wife, or even between a man and a woman. In the case of the Song of Songs, desire’s heat can be applied not only to the love between a woman and a man, but also between humanity and God.

— Jennifer Wright Knust, Unprotected Texts; the Bible's Surprising Contradictions about Sex and Desire

To fill in the details: Coogan is a Catholic Bible scholar, Knust is a Baptist Bible scholar. None of them claimed to be atheist. tgeorgescu (talk) 05:39, 8 August 2021 (UTC)

Regarding the edit, I think it should stay. It is sourced, and the statement is factual: that modern scholars have considered it to have sexual meaning. But on the other hand, I disagreed with the term "Many". While both are scholars, I don't think that the view is held by most of modern Bible scholars. In the spirit of WP:BRD I will remove the many, but I agreed with most of the edit.SunDawntalk 05:49, 8 August 2021 (UTC)

Ok, further: Amy-Jill Levine is an Orthodox Jewish Bible scholar, while Gerald West is an Anglican Bible scholar. Not atheists, either.

Morals: whatever the truth might be in respect to this interpretation, what is certain is that the Bible isn't a prudish book. Pretending that it is prudish only makes matters worse.

Frankly, it is not even established as historical fact that Ruth was a real person, let alone what might have happened between her and a man when there was nobody else to witness it. tgeorgescu (talk) 12:45, 8 August 2021 (UTC)

Reliable sources for a possible rewrite of this article

Just a few that I quickly found.[1][2][3][4] I did find a lot of self-published material, but these sources seem to meet WP:RS which I'd argue many of the ones used do not. Doug Weller talk 12:42, 15 October 2017 (UTC)

Wikipedia standards allow for citations of people's online work to represent their own thought.

WP:ABOUTSELF All the sources you deleted began by citing the author who presented them. The quotes present them as the thoughts of that author and those who follow that author's ministry.

By your logic we can not quote the online catechism of the Catholic Church as authoritative for the Catholic Church because its published by the Catholic Church. That's not the Wikipedia standard.

--Wowaconia (talk) 15:47, 17 July 2020 (UTC)

We do WP:CITE the Catholic Catechism as WP:ATTRIBUTEPOV for the Catholic Church. gotquestions.org is nobody's catechism. We just don't WP:CITE WP:RANDY.

See Talk:Internal consistency of the Bible/Archive 1#Is www.tektonics.org a WP:RS? and Talk:Jesus/Archive 127#Cause of death = pericardial effusion + pleural effusion and User talk:Dethbethlehem#Gotquestions.org and Talk:Hillsong Church#First few lines....

He, himself, on his own, tell us that his own view is WP:Notable. But why would we believe him on his word of honor? According to WP:NOTFREESPEECH and other WP:RULES, we only render the views of scholars and of representatives of big social, cultural, political or religious groups. He is neither.

Your criterion of WP:N would be a random priest or pastor published that in WP:SPS. That's not gonna fly. tgeorgescu (talk) 03:27, 8 July 2021 (UTC)

Copy/pasted from Talk:Rhema (doctrine).

That is now Talk:Hillsong Church/Archive 2#First few lines.....

@Pyrite Pro: you're violating a guideline, gotquestions isn't WP:RS and should not be used.

... and, it wasn't unexplained. The explanation was WP:SPS, you might want to read it.

Gotquestions is not affiliated with a church, so they represent no church, they speak for no church, they speak for nobody in particular. So it even fails WP:ATTRIBUTEPOV.

It is a self-published site written by a bunch of amateurs. Where did they got their PhD, ThD, or DD? In a box of crackerjacks?

Rumor has it that they are Baptists. But they claim no formal affiliation with the Baptist Church, so they may not speak on behalf the Baptist Church. They cannot be WP:CITED for the viewpoints of the Baptist Church, since they don't have the credentials of publicly representing it.

Press statements by Ed Litton may be quoted to WP:Verify the POVs of the Baptist Church, but gotquestions is useless as a source for Wikipedia.

What we won't do is quote amateur theologians who play hide and seek with their religious affiliations.

And, correct me if I am wrong, gotquestions are a bunch of anonymous amateur theologians. That completely fails the WP:RS guideline. tgeorgescu (talk) 23:45, 27 November 2021 (UTC)

Quoting myself. tgeorgescu (talk) 14:47, 2 June 2022 (UTC)

Hebrew scrolls

absolutely no original Hebrew Scrolls exist to back up this era is moving the goalposts. tgeorgescu (talk) 22:19, 7 June 2023 (UTC)

Not sure what you're trying to say, but there are no holograph manuscripts of any book of the Bible... AnonMoos (talk) 10:49, 5 November 2023 (UTC)

Perhaps the Book of Ruth was written by a woman

I find it surprising that in Chapter 3 the author go at length describing what Ruth need to do to lure Boaz especially verse 3. Women have been using those tactics since and who knows how much prior. As I read this Chapter I asked myself why are these words necessary to be included? For me, if I allow my sexist view that the author to be female, then such details would be expected. 206.251.72.199 (talk) 10:58, 8 August 2023 (UTC)

Shaye J. D. Cohen, here (I don't remember which lesson), considers unlikely that any woman was involved in writing the Bible. tgeorgescu (talk) 11:56, 8 August 2023 (UTC)