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Talk:Black genocide

History informationEdit

This article was developed first in User:Binksternet/BG. Anthony Appleyard (talk) 09:19, 18 April 2014 (UTC)

Multiple IssuesEdit

Just to start with:

  • Where is the transatlantic slave "trade" (more accurately, genocide) section? Or the section on the rape of slaves? Or on the Tuskegee Syphilis Study? Or, for that matter, on housing covenents, segregation, race-baiting...
  • Lynchings and such organizations as the KKK are pretty much minimized by this article. That's pretty serious...
  • On the other hand, there is an excessive focus on abortion, and on members of the "Black Power" movement; having every image be one of a Black Panther isn't exactly neutral, outside of an article on "Black Nationalism" or the Black Panthers themselves.
  • The author of this article clearly either has a close connection to the subject or is heavily biased.

自教育 (talk) 19:25, 19 May 2014 (UTC)

Well now, I have no close connection to the subject, nor do I think I am biased. I have great friends of mine who were raised in a Black Power setting in Oakland, and they hold various stances on this issue. Some are dismissive as was Angela Davis. Some are still convinced. I found the subject matter to be very interesting—quite new to me—and I researched it thoroughly, so the article is an expression of the sources that I found.
The Atlantic slave trade is certainly identified as "black genocide" by some observers, despite the fact that living slaves were worth a whole lot more than dead ones.
The lynchings are covered in the We Charge Genocide article.
I would caution against confusing violent or severe racism with black genocide. Binksternet (talk) 06:22, 20 May 2014 (UTC)

Original researchEdit

While largely accurate and supported by the sources, I worry that some of the work boarders on original research. Take the “Prison” section, for example. Gathered here are several voices who argue that incarceration rates are part of a genocidal plot. These are the original sources of such a theory. There is no critique of these theories by critics, yet alone an article cited that this is part of a “conspiracy theory.” I’m not arguing it should be removed, only that more work is needed to bring a scholarly dimension to support the findings of this section. I looked but couldn’t find one at present. The “abortion & birth-control” conspiracy theory is adequately sourced as is the interesting history that those who charge "genocide," a diverse group of political factions that make for strange bedfellows. Jason from nyc (talk) 14:07, 29 May 2014 (UTC)

I would have headed this discussion "Expansion needed in prison section" rather than "Original research".
Here are more sources discussing the prison aspect of black genocide:
  • 2005 – "The Pampers to Prison Pipeline", a keynote address given by Dr. Rosa Smith in Boston at the 21st Century Black Massachusetts Conference. Smith said that putting black youth in prison is "educational genocide" which amounts to "killing the seeds of a people" (black genocide). [1][2]
  • 2013 – Dr. Joy James has written many times about the U.S. prison system as organized black genocide. She writes in 2013 that the origins can be traced to the post-Civil War system of convict lease in which black men were worked to death on public and private projects. [3]
  • 1993 – Dr. Coramae Richey Mann wrote about prisons as black genocide. For instance, she makes the connection in Unequal Justice: A Question of Color. She says on page 46 that black genocide is represented by the very high murder rate among African Americans; she describes the same cultural illnesses leading to black-on-black murder as those leading to prison. Back in the Foreword, she says that white American culture was always genocidal, starting with the near-elimination of the native peoples of North America, and continuing with Chinese immigrants on the West Coast in the late 19th century, and then the firebombing and atomic bombing of Japan in 1945. She says this white attitude is applied to the black populace.
  • 1977 – Dr. John C. Thornton published Behavior Modification: The Road to Genocide in which he described how mental institutions and prisons were taking an over-representation of black men out of society, causing black genocide. He supplies many statistics, such as an average of 42.2 months of a federal sentence given to white men versus an average of 63.3 months for black men. [4]
So there are some pathways to explore toward expansion: the analysis of four scholars. Binksternet (talk) 15:59, 29 May 2014 (UTC)

Expansion suggestionsEdit

This article can be expanded on several issues. Binksternet (talk) 16:40, 29 May 2014 (UTC)

AIDS infectionEdit

  • Operation INFEKTION
  • Jeremiah Wright controversy
  • "Black Communities Hit Hardest By AIDS, Researchers Say". Philadelphia Daily News. August 25, 1988. 'The Acquired Immune Deficiency Syndrome virus is striking blacks twice as often as whites,' said Bill Jenkins, chief of evaluation and assessments for sexually transmitted diseases at the Centers for Disease Control.
  • Horowitz, David (April 28, 1997). "Myths and stereotypes caused the L.A. riots, and there will be more unless reality takes hold". Salon. Archived from the original on March 28, 2010. Retrieved February 20, 2013. Surveys show that a large and perhaps growing portion of the African-American community is indeed convinced that whites—with 'their' government behind them—are plotting genocide against blacks through the distribution of crack and the AIDS virus.

DrugsEdit

  • Gary Webb (1996). Dark Alliance: The CIA, the Contras and the Crack Cocaine Explosion. Webb describes a crack epidemic initiated in the U.S. by the CIA, one which targeted blacks.
  • Rapper Ice Cube says in The Predator's "When Will They Shoot" that whites caused black genocide by introducing crack.[5]
  • Clarence Lusane wrote Pipe Dream Blues in 1991. The foreword is by Jesse Jackson. Lusane writes, "Many believe that either a section of the government or a group of White racists is carrying out a plan of Black genocide via drugs."

PovertyEdit

Brazil's form of black genocideEdit

  • Abdias do Nascimento (1989) Brazil: Mixture or Massacre: Essays in the Genocide of a Black People.[6]
  • Joao H. Costa Vargas (2010) Never Meant to Survive: Genocide and Utopias in Black Diaspora Communities[7]

Unfair housing practicesEdit

Black scholar Nathan Wright, Jr. (1923-2005) wrote in 1969 that the 1967 National Conference on Black Power identified unfair housing practices as a form of black genocide. Binksternet (talk) 21:10, 25 August 2019 (UTC)

Split suggestionEdit

I think there should be a clear split between the conspiracy theories (e.g. birth control) and actual historical violence toward African Americans, lumping these very different categories together doesn't make much sense.--Pharos (talk) 20:07, 9 November 2015 (UTC)

Indeed. I think the section documenting violence towards blacks were all added this year. Given there was no actual attempt to relate them to claims of genocide, I've removed them all – they're all covered adequately elsewhere on Wikipedia, and I suspect may have been copied and pasted from other articles. I'm sure their inclusion was well-meaning, but the article was just a mess. ¡Bozzio! 14:45, 29 November 2015 (UTC)
I'm not sure what the best solution is, but Black Holocaust (referring to the history of slavery) and We Charge Genocide (referring to modern history) both cover actual historical violence toward African Americans that has been characterized by non-fringe scholars as genocide, and I'm not sure if a search for "Black genocide" should go only to the article on conspiracy theories - perhaps some sort of disambiguation page is called for.--Pharos (talk) 14:10, 5 December 2015 (UTC)
Either that, or perhaps Black genocide should be a summary article of these three topics, and the unsupported conspiracy bits mostly spun off as Black genocide conspiracy theories.--Pharos (talk) 14:15, 5 December 2015 (UTC)
Thinking further, I would suggest this article be divided into four main sections: Slavery as genocide (covering Black Holocaust), Jim Crow as genocide (covering We Charge Genocide and related), Systemic racism as genocide (covering things like Race in the United States criminal justice system) and lastly Conspiracy theories.--Pharos (talk) 15:26, 6 December 2015 (UTC)

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RenameEdit

This article should be called Black genocide conspiracy theory in a way that matches the parallell conspiracy theory by white supremacists.

This move will be in no way controversial as the very first line of this article describes it as a conspiracy theory.

I dont know who on Wikipedia renames the articles but this should be recommended — Preceding unsigned comment added by Dr0p th3 pr3ssur3 (talkcontribs) 21:16, 16 April 2016 (UTC)

Perhaps a discussion should have preceded the article move. (By the way, the mover, who commented above, was soon blocked as a sockpuppet.) In any case the current name is not so good. As I have recently seen in the case of "GMO conspiracy theories", the term "conspiracy theory" is hard to define, and carries the connotations of unwarranted and derogatory. Wikipedia need not endorse all of the ideas presented on this page, but neither should we condemn them without strong reason. I would recommend a name change, perhaps to Black genocide accusations. Best, groupuscule (talk) 18:16, 16 November 2017 (UTC)
I agree having this content under this title is problematic - see the ideas in #Split suggestion above.--Pharos (talk) 20:23, 16 November 2017 (UTC)
Hi Pharos, I agree there is a lot of material here which would divide well into separate articles. I have some ideas about how to do that, but for now I suggest we move the whole article to "Black genocide accusations" and then use it as an umbrella article from which these others can fork. The word "accusations" seems appropriate to me because it doesn't imply (as much) judgment about whether each accusation is true or false. What do you think? groupuscule (talk) 03:09, 18 November 2017 (UTC)
The word "conspiracy" fits better than "accusations" in the article title, as the focus here, the topic of the article, is the idea that white people of European heritage in the US have conspired as a race to reduce or kill out black people of African heritage living in the US. That idea has been put forward by many which is why it's notable. If there's any moving of the article to be done here, it ought to be moved back to simply Black genocide, the way it was first brought to mainspace 3.5 years ago. Binksternet (talk) 04:31, 18 November 2017 (UTC)
That would be ALL WELL AND GOOD if persons of European descent didn't openly hold these beliefs that African-Americans should be eradicated. Many of the alleged "conspiracy theories" are, in fact, not theories but actually conspiracies by groups like the KKK and other White Nationalist/Supremacist organizations. The ONLY accusation in this article that fits "conspiracy theory" is the one about birth control. I would support moving it to Black Genocide and striking conspiracy theories - and listing the birth control conspiracy theory under its own heading. 47.153.29.247 (talk) 23:56, 13 December 2017 (UTC)

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Reorganized sectionsEdit

I've reorganized into sections by era. I'm not sure this is the best way to do it, but I do think it clarifies things a bit. Having a new structure suggests some obvious gaps, including a summary section on 1970s-era ideas, and more on mainstream scholarship of systemic racism and its relationship to the genocide concept.--Pharos (talk) 22:08, 21 December 2017 (UTC)

Thanks for your organization work. Binksternet (talk) 22:15, 21 December 2017 (UTC)

Request for comment: Conspiracy theory?Edit

Black genocide conspiracy theory per the consensus below and Binksternets excellent summary of the history of the article. This does not preclude editors from creating other articles or splitting information from this one, subject to the usual consensus requirements of editing wikipedia. AIRcorn (talk) 02:35, 19 April 2018 (UTC)


I will leave implementing this to the regular editors of the article as it may require some work and would best be handled with those more familiar with the topic AIRcorn (talk) 02:43, 19 April 2018 (UTC)
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

}} Should this article describe the black genocide conspiracy theory or the general topic of black genocide in the US? Binksternet (talk) 21:34, 22 February 2018 (UTC)

SurveyEdit

  • Black genocide conspiracy theory. If someone wants to write a new article documenting the extensive white racism against African Americans, then I welcome that effort. Binksternet (talk) 21:34, 22 February 2018 (UTC)
  • Black genocide conspiracy theory. — Malik Shabazz Talk/Stalk 04:44, 23 February 2018 (UTC)
  • Black ??? conspiracy theories per the threaded discussion, with the understanding that sourcing will have to be impeccable or it would be AFD bound or stubbed. There is a lot of potential for abuse in articles like this, but there is also a wealth of potential to make a good article, so I support the principle, just not in love with the title. Genocide may indeed be the wrong word and is such a broad claim, I see problems. Dennis Brown - 14:54, 3 March 2018 (UTC)
  • Black genocide, for the article as written. The article as written doesn't describe a conspiracy theory. It describes a set of events ranging in validity from documented history to conspiracy theory. Capturing all the sections under the heading of "conspiracy theory" is not justified by the article. For example, the article makes a strong case that the government enforced involuntary sterilization and that this is genocide. This would be confusing if it were all called a conspiracy theory. As I see it, either a cleanup collecting all the conspiracy theories under the proper header with current article title is in order, or a reframing of the entire article as strictly the conspiracy theory ideas. In the latter case, I would support Black genocide conspiracy theory. TheGreatConsultingDetective (talk) 01:54, 10 March 2018 (UTC)
  • Black genocide conspiracy theory. (summoned by bot) in my view the topic of black genocide is quite narrow, and the scope of the article would be broader if it includes concepts generally referred to as conspiracy theory. I don't see a single mainstream reliable source that frames the ideas put forward in the article as anything other conspiracy theories, even though the theories are based on the very real racial discrimination. Prince of Thieves (talk) 12:34, 15 March 2018 (UTC)
  • Black genocide conspiracy theory, with massive dilution of the text. At the moment it looks like a lot of WP:SYNTH of information on well-known racial policies with the occasional reference to "conspiracy", but no actual narrative showing how everything is connected. In other words, it looks like the article itself is the conspiracy, rather than just an article describing one. The clearest way to deal with this is to move the uncontended parts to their respective parent articles (eg. African-American history, Racism in the United States and Racial segregation in the United States), leaving just the content on "conspiracy", and retitle the text as suggested. François Robere (talk) 17:04, 20 March 2018 (UTC)
  • Black genocide conspiracy theory because there is an article called white genocide conspiracy theory article with a similar structure. this article is about the United States, where there never was any real genocide against blacks, which makes any allegation of that kind a conspiracy theory. --Spafky (talk) 17:32, 28 March 2018 (UTC)
  • Black genocide I agree almost entirely with User:TheGreatConsultingDetective. Many of these events actually happened, and per UN standards constitute genocide. The only change in name I think would be warranted would be Black genocide in the United States to differentiate it from other similar genocidal plots in other countries. But being that most documented cases happened in the US, even that seems odd. But the article as written details all forms of genocide committed against African-Americans, and the conspiracy theories, most notably the birth control pill conspriacy are listed under their own header. I don't think there is enough examples of conspiracy theory to warrant its own page. Gstridsigne (talk) 14:52, 24 March 2018 (UTC)
  • Split between Black genocide in the United States and either Black genocide conspiracy theory or Black abortion conspiracy theory. There's material for either article. Black genocide in the US would cover historical facts that are interpreted as genocide without no allegations of conspiracy, the conspiracy theory article would cover allegations of conspiracy. Ian.thomson (talk) 18:03, 28 March 2018 (UTC)

Threaded discussionEdit

This article was started in my own userspace five years ago, focusing on the black genocide conspiracy theory. I searched for instances of "black genocide conspiracy" in books, magazines, news articles, etc. My development of the topic was a reaction to seeing 2010 news articles like the Los Angeles Times' "Antiabortion activists see a racial conspiracy", The New York Times' "To Court Blacks, Foes of Abortion Make Racial Case", and Mother Jones' "Conspiracy Watch: Is Abortion Black Genocide? Are pro-choice policies decimating the African-American population? MoJo examines the myth." Some anti-abortion activists were getting traction in the black community with their false depiction of Planned Parenthood in the political pseudo-documentary film Maafa 21 (2009). This article about the black genocide conspiracy theory was intended to counter in some small way the 2009–2010 disinformation campaign, and to lay out for the reader the main themes of this complex topic.

When the article was ready for mainspace, it was published as Black genocide conspiracy theory in April 2014.[8] Other editors such as MShabazz helped to develop it, also reverting the occasional editor who removed "conspiracy",[9] as did EvergreenFir.[10] Some now-blocked editors also tried to remove the conspiracy theory aspect, including HuntClubJoe.[11] However, the various good-faith reworkings of the article by pro-life editor Motsebboh (sock of Badmintonhist) never removed the conspiracy theory aspect.[12][13] Another editor went so far as to change the first sentence into "black nationalist conspiracy theory".[14] In December 2017, Pharos changed the focus slightly, saying that the conspiracy theory as described in the article was "in the modern era."

This all changed on December 28, 2017, when ChiveFungi moved the page from Black genocide conspiracy theory to Black genocide,[15] removing "conspiracy theory" from the first sentence, and cutting out the Mother Jones reference.[16] ChiveFungi changed the text to say in the second paragraph that "Some accusations of genocide have been described as conspiracy theories."

Wikipedia has other articles which discuss the racism against African Americans in the United States. Certainly Racism in the United States is the main one, and African-American history covers it, too. Institutional racism gives a global view, while the articles about Racial segregation in the United States, Black Codes (United States), and Jim Crow laws get into the historical methods used by white Americans to keep African Americans from thriving. This article about the black genocide conspiracy theory was never intended to be an exhaustive account of the negative effects of institutional racism against African Americans. Such an article can be written, for sure, but this one is not it. The instances of widespread racism that are found in this article are provided as background to the genocide-affirming or -dismissing conclusions made by observers.

Wikipedia's black genocide article was presented as a conspiracy theory for 56 months, then changed to present a historic fact for 2 months. The sources calling it a conspiracy theory are still relevant. I think the article should return to its original focus, based on the following sources. Binksternet (talk) 21:34, 22 February 2018 (UTC)

The article as it stands (and when I moved it [18]) mentions slavery, lynchings, and Jim Crow laws. These are not conspiracy theories, but the title and lede were implying they were. I have no strong feelings about whether the article should cover just conspiracy theories or facts too, but I do believe that whichever option is chosen we must be careful to avoid accidentally wording the article in a way which implies something which is untrue. --ChiveFungi (talk) 22:48, 22 February 2018 (UTC)
  • Perhaps it could be changed to Black abortion conspiracy theory. That is more precise. Under the broader definitions of genocide, American treatment of blacks does qualify as genocide. I myself don't agree with those broader definitions, but there are some serious scholars and activists who do. So a title change might reduce confusion.-GPRamirez5 (talk) 11:39, 23 February 2018 (UTC)
  • To be quite honest, when I saw the title, I assumed it was about the genocide of blacks in slavery and the Atlantic slave trade. While I agree that the "theory" that abortion is a plot to carry out a genocide against blacks is notable and also a conspiracy theory, I don't think that the title of "black genocide" is the best choice of a title for that topic. There is academic discussion about the whole subject of the Atlantic slave trade and whether that trade and the associated slavery of black peoples in up until the late 19th century was a genocide. See, for example, Adam Jones' discussion of it in Genocide: A Comprehensive Discussion (2006 - isbn 978-0-415-35384-7) (pp. 23-24) where Jones lists the subject as a "contested genocide", meaning there is continued scholarly debate but that some scholars support it as a genocide. Not sure how to best solve the issue of two topics which share the same name. Ealdgyth - Talk 14:41, 23 February 2018 (UTC)
  • The main thing for me is to differentiate the conspiracy theory from other uses (historical debates, UN activism). To frame it as a proper conspiracy theory article, the most useful thing would be to pinpoint the context: when, where, and by whom the conspiracy theory was started, and how it progressed over time.--Pharos (talk) 21:12, 23 February 2018 (UTC)
One more article on Wikipedia about this topic is Maafa, which is the redirect of Black Holocaust. Perhaps the Black Holocaust article can take some of the parts of this article that are not specifically named as being a conspiracy theory, the parts I included as background information. I'm willing to pare this article down to just the conspiracy theory material in order to get it back to its intended subject. Binksternet (talk) 01:52, 12 March 2018 (UTC)
I'd suggest perhaps the first paragraph of the intro should be directly about the modern conspiracy theory with its contraception/abortion focus, and the second paratagraph could briefly explain and contrast it to slavery, historic forms of oppression, and the UN activism.--Pharos (talk) 18:49, 12 March 2018 (UTC)
Another option might be to make Black genocide one of the Wikipedia:Set index articles.--Pharos (talk) 18:56, 12 March 2018 (UTC)
To give a sort of example of a set index article that explains an ambiguous term with a related series of meanings, I'd suggest New Jersey English. It gives brief sections (and pointers to the main articles) for the several distinct dialects that may be given this name.--Pharos (talk) 19:06, 6 April 2018 (UTC)
  • After reading your summary of events, it seems that this page really spiraled out of control in the last few months. In December, I remember stumbling upon this article when it was still called Black Genocide Conspiracy Theory, and almost all examples within the page were well documented, substantiated events that actually happened. The only one's that could even be considered conspiracy theories were the abortion/birth control theories. Now, reading your history of the topic, it seems that was the initial focus of your article 5 years ago. If it were to return to just the abortion/birth control conspiracy theories, I would support renaming it - but probably if the name was more precise like Black abortion conspiracy theory. But in its current state (and the state it was in December), the article is describing Black genocide, which has been confirmed by the UN. It seems that people just want a parallel article to White genocide conspiracy theory. Well, there isn't one. There is either the abortion conspiracy theory or actual black genocide. I also think the article and name is acceptable as is. Yes, it could be expanded and improved upon, but it is acceptable. Gstridsigne (talk) 15:10, 24 March 2018 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
I am confused to how this was considered a consensus decision. It seemed completely split down the middle between keeping it just Black Genocide and changing it to Black Genocide Conspiracy Theory. And, unless I am misinterpreting the decision, it seemed the consensus was that: As it stands, the article describes Black Genocide with a few examples of Black Genocide Conspiracy Theory, if it were to be rewritten to only include the abortion claims, then most would support the renaming - but to a more precise term like Black abortion conspiracy theory. But as of the current state of the article, it describes legitimate black genocide. How was this decided in favor of renaming the article? Gstridsigne (talk) 23:38, 30 April 2018 (UTC)

Questionable sourceEdit

A biography for juvenile readers, Maya Angelou: Diversity Makes for a Rich Tapestry, is used as a source twice in this article, including in the first paragraph. I encourage editors to review the source, which is available on Google Books, and decide for themselves whether it is a reliable source for what Malcolm X said about "black genocide".

Consider whether the author or publisher has a reputation for fact-checking and accuracy, whether the publisher has a reliable publication process, whether the author is regarded as authoritative in relation to the subject, and most importantly in my mind, whether these qualifications are demonstrable to other people, especially our readers. — Malik Shabazz Talk/Stalk 04:54, 23 February 2018 (UTC)

Google books says of the book that it is "Juvenile Nonfiction", for that reason alone I'd consider it a less than perfect source. Given the number of academic works on Malcolm X, we should be using those, and not a juvenile non-fiction work. Amazon classifies it as "teen" for an additional data point. Ealdgyth - Talk 14:34, 23 February 2018 (UTC)
I'm perfectly willing for someone to bring a better source. Certainly the basic statement is true, that Malcolm X said a black genocide had been underway during the last few centuries. Binksternet (talk) 15:40, 23 February 2018 (UTC)
This law review article looks like a good summary of Malcolm X and this subject. There is no mention of anything as early as 1961, or the specific phrase "black genocide". In 1964, he was working on a United Nations petition as a follow-up to We Charge Genocide, and apparently planned to launch a formal case in international court (draft of petition text). This is much closer to We Charge Genocide than to the conspiracy theories that came later, and I think it would be good to separate the two.--Pharos (talk) 20:26, 23 February 2018 (UTC)
Thank you for the interesting law journal article. I'll rephrase the two sentences to remove the direct quote "black genocide" (which I can't find in any biography or Malcolm X or collection of his speeches) and add the law journal article and the draft UN petition as sources. — Malik Shabazz Talk/Stalk 04:04, 24 February 2018 (UTC)

Post-RfCEdit

The RfC was never quite followed up on. My suggestion post-RfC was for Black genocide to perhaps be a Wikipedia:Set index article, and for Black genocide conspiracy theory to have the first paragraph of the intro be directly about the modern conspiracy theory with its contraception/abortion focus, and the second paragraph could briefly explain and contrast it to slavery, historic forms of oppression, and the UN activism. I'm not sre if people think this might be a good idea?--Pharos (talk) 18:48, 8 October 2018 (UTC)

Return to "Black genocide" page.