Talk:Battle of al-Qusayr (2012)

Secondary parties

Minor secondary parties to a conflict should not be included in a general information box. To include an entry in the info box for twenty individuals is ridiculous. Also, it should be noted that these individuals did not go to Syria as representatives of Fatah al-Islam. However, I'll not stop you from including these twenty fighters since you feel that it helps to establish a neutral point of view. I've included the Iranian government and its fighters that are supporting the Syrian government. This will maintain a neutral point of view with respect to secondary parties. Although, I feel that the Iranian government and secondary parties such as the 20 fighters should not be included in the info box.--Guest2625 (talk) 06:55, 27 April 2012 (UTC)

Per the source that Ekograf included, it mentioned that the fighters from lebanon did not even come into Syria under a banner of Fatah al-Islam. Is it imperative to include in the article that these fighters came in to aid the rebels to matain a neutral point of view, but it is not really nessacry to put Fatah al-Islam in the infobox, as Guest has already stated. You can see that they are a very minor secondary party, these idiviuals have not even gone to Syria as Fatah al-islam.--Goltak (talk) 16:36, 27 April 2012 (UTC)

EkoGraf quote: "I don't deny the involvement of Iranian special forces and military intelligence in the conflict,as the source itself suggests.But the ref you provided does not make any confirmation or even mention of their presence in Qusayr or the battle."

And, who are these Iranian special forces and military intelligence working with? The Washington Post article says that they are working with the Syrian army. Isn't the Syrian army one of the combatants in the info box, and don't you think for neutrality we should include also the secondary party which is helping them with "hundreds of advisers, security officials and intelligence operatives" across Syria? Or where exactly in the Syrian uprising info boxes should these secondary combatants be included? Based on your criteria that the article state the location which they are fighting I would assume that we should include the Iranian combatants in the Damascus clashes info box since the Washington Post article states "Iranian security officials also traveled to Damascus to help deliver this assistance." the quote appears to indicate that some of these Iranian combatants are operating in Damascus.

It should be clear that the Lebanese combatants and Iranian combatants from the two articles are symmetrical sets of information. In order to maintain neutrality we either include both combatants or we exclude both combatants. That is what neutrality means. And, at the moment it appears that the consensus is weighing towards exclusion, however, consensus does depend on what your response is. --Guest2625 (talk) 23:46, 27 April 2012 (UTC)

Guest, here we don't have an issue of NPOV, but an issue of verifiability. You are totally neglecting the basic Wikipedia rule, that all additions need to based on verifiability. The combatant criteria in the infobox is there so we can put in it groups that are involved in this specific battle, not the general conflict overall, no matter how small the group is. We have a source that confirms the presence of Fatah al-Islam in the battle, but we don't have a source that confirms the presence of the Iranians in this battle. The source you provided confirms they are present in the country, but doesn't confirm they are present in Qusayr. You say we add them cause they are an ally of the Syrian army generally, well per that logic we should add the Polish Armed Forces in the West to the list of combatants in the Battle of the Bulge since they were part of the Ally force, even though they were not even in the same country at the time. Listen, here we focus only on the combatants of this battle, not the whole conflict, and sources confirm Fatah has been involved in Qusayr. EkoGraf (talk) 12:25, 28 April 2012 (UTC)

I'm fine with the inclusion of the al-Fatah related combatants on this page. However, the Iranians really do need to be added somewhere. Perhaps, on the main Syrian uprising page infobox. Or based on the Washington Post article it appears that the Iranians are involved in military activity in the Damascus area. This other source http://www.theaustralian.com.au/news/world/syrian-regime-importing-snipers-for-protests/story-e6frg6so-1226254330519 makes it quite clear that Iranian and Hezbollah secondary combatants are operating and living in Damascus, and by the apparent large numbers and the fact that many are snipers that they are operating throughout Syria. But, the issue of other secondary combatants can be addressed on other relevant Syrian uprising pages.--Guest2625 (talk) 20:58, 28 April 2012 (UTC)

"While many were members of Fatah al-Islam, they were not traveling under the terror group’s banner. Instead they called themselves mujahideen, holy warriors seeking to help fellow Muslims under attack by the Syrian regime." Firstly, not all of them were even Fatah-al islam. Secondly, they didn't come into to Syria under as the group. --Goltak (talk) 14:23, 28 April 2012 (UTC)

Ok, they weren't fighting under the banner of Fatah al-Islam? Fine. But you yourself said now that they were fighting as mujahideen. In that case we add foreign majahideen to the infobox. You have pointed out to me, which I didn't notice before, that they didn't fight under the Fatah banner, but they did fight as mujahideen per the source. Sorry for my error before. EkoGraf (talk) 13:59, 28 April 2012 (UTC)

Split

The following discussion is an archived discussion of a requested split. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

Since the Battle of Al-Qusayr practically stalled by mid-April and later resumed only two months later in June (finalizing with the takeover of al-Qusayr by FSA on July 10), i propose to split the aftermath into a second article named June-July 2012 al-Qusayr offensive.Greyshark09 (talk) 07:37, 15 July 2012 (UTC)

The result of the move request was: not split.Greyshark09 (talk) 22:15, 9 October 2012 (UTC)

---

• I Support this spilt as the recent offensive after the stalemate deserves a new article. -Goltak (talk) 08:56, 15 July 2012 (UTC)

• Weak support, what happened two months later after the stalemate is a new event new battle. EkoGraf (talk) 20:55, 17 July 2012 (UTC)

• I'm not sure if it is beneficial to make a new article especially one that has the fixed title of "june-july" since the control over the city will likely change. I think that it is better to use headings for the quasi two phases of the battle for the city inside this article as was done in the Battle of Zabadani. I don't really feel that strongly about the split or not, but I do feel that there are an excessive amount of battle articles which have artificial time periods when in fact the fighting is continuous with merely changing areas of control. Guest2625 (talk) 06:59, 18 July 2012 (UTC)

Agreed, we can easily rewrite it into two phases. Been done before. EllsworthSK (talk) 23:02, 10 September 2012 (UTC)

Since the comment I was reacting on was deleted, I was in favour of not splitting the article, but rather rewriting it into two phases. EllsworthSK (talk) 11:44, 7 October 2012 (UTC)

• Comment - despite the consensus, currently, i'm not sure whether the second phase is notable enough, can anyone check the current status of Al-Qusayr? If rebels still control it and more sources are found on June-July offensive, i will do the split.Greyshark09 (talk) 08:12, 7 October 2012 (UTC)

[1] The Free Syrian Army, a rebel force made up of civilians and army defectors, controls most of the town. But Assad's military commands the main highway running through town from Lebanon to the city of Homs, a bastion of rebel activity 16 miles to the north. Looks like a stalemate. EllsworthSK (talk) 11:46, 7 October 2012 (UTC)

Seems you are right, not enough information on the offensive and even though maybe the rebels did at the time capture most of the city, the government again controls the main road and as Ell said, another stalemate again. EkoGraf (talk) 15:10, 7 October 2012 (UTC)

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested split. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

Can someone please explain why facebook posts from an opposition group

are being used as citation?

Until then, I am removing them, this is ridiculous. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Savakk (talk • contribs) 23:23, 22 April 2013 (UTC)

Facebook post are by nature first-party reports. Please do not cite to Facebook posts. Thank you. Geraldshields11 (talk) 14:57, 20 May 2013 (UTC)

When does this end?

The main section says that the battle of al-Qusayer ends on April 2012. However the article mentions events up until May 2013 including the government counter-attack in which they recaptured parts of the city. If this is only regarding untill April 2012 then we can say its a rebel victory. If your including the second part then it's still ongoing with the government recapturing the city.

Any ideas? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Rabolisk (talk • contribs) 12:29, 20 May 2013 (UTC)

I understand your concerns and agree that it should have an end. But, when, I am not sure. Also, there is a related article that focuses on the events in 2013. Geraldshields11 (talk) 14:55, 20 May 2013 (UTC)

Ths is also being alled Battle of al=Qusayr. Ive gone and reconcustructed it as such. What is the other article?(Lihaas (talk) 16:11, 20 May 2013 (UTC)).

We could rename the article Battle of al-Qusayr as the First Battle of Qusayr and the article Al-Qusayr offensive as the Second Battle of Qusayr. This would be similar to the American Civil War articles about the First Battle of Bull Run and the Second Battle of Bull Run. Please discuss. Geraldshields11 (talk) 17:24, 20 May 2013 (UTC)

I propose to rename the section Battle of Qusayr, inside of the Al-Qusayr offensive article, as the section on the Second Battle of al-Qusayr. The reason is there is already a seperate 2012 Battle of al-Qusayr article. Also, there seems to be third-party reports that the second battle started around 19 May 2013 and the first battle ended around April 2013. Please discuss. Geraldshields11 (talk) 00:28, 21 May 2013 (UTC)

Seems that the first battle ended last ummer. April was buildup to clearing the villages so its part of 2013. I propose to stick with Battle of...as it s being called that too. Don't need to create artificial divisions. There are also other Bbattles of articles when there are more than 1.(Lihaas (talk) 15:37, 21 May 2013 (UTC)).

There is already an article for the 2013 battle: Al-Qusayr Offensive#Battle of al-Qusayr. I've changed the title and scope of this article so that it's just about the 2012 battle.--FutureTrillionaire (talk) 17:43, 21 May 2013 (UTC)

Rather than changing it unuilaterally it would be much better to continue with this discussion we are having here. They are both Battles of al QusayrLihaas (talk) 12:49, 22 May 2013 (UTC)

POV "Assad's Regime"

And this is from a Western source: In fact, our personalization of the regime in Syria as “Assad’s regime” leads to bad analysis; the Baathi regime and the Alawite military power structure predate the elder Assad’s takeover in 1970 and are still very much alive. There is little reason to believe that Assad’s departure from the scene will lead to regime collapse.(Lihaas (talk) 15:35, 21 May 2013 (UTC)).

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