Talk:Balloon boy hoax

Veracity of "nobody mentions the possibility of Falcon being in the balloon"

This line in the article is false. In the liftoff home video you can hear Bradford hear "Dad, Falcon's in the ship." Reuben dskl (talk) 20:56, 8 October 2022 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 15 October 2022

Change all instances of “Balloon Boy hoax” to “Balloon Boy Incident” the Heene family was pardoned and it is now confirmed not to be a hoax, so it is inaccurate and offensive to call it one 142.181.101.107 (talk) 04:31, 15 October 2022 (UTC)

 Not done: see above discussions as well as prior consensus here - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Balloon_boy_hoax/Archive_4#Requested_move_4_March_2021 Cannolis (talk) 04:46, 15 October 2022 (UTC)

“Hoax”

Backread some of the previous topics. That really does seem like bias, especially after the Heenes were officially pardoned, and there’s clear evidence of police lying on transcripts, illegally questioning children, etc. 2600:6C5E:447F:AEC2:50B9:3795:D697:FE2E (talk) 05:06, 14 January 2023 (UTC)

"Pardoned" means the crime still happened according to official record but they waived the consequence. It doesn't mean innocence. Nothing was overturned. 174.246.129.87 (talk) 00:58, 4 February 2023 (UTC)

that is not true; that is "commutation".

"pardon" wipes the actual crime as well. 2601:19C:527F:A660:1C7B:D57F:1D8B:C1CD (talk) 08:32, 7 February 2023 (UTC)

The use of neutrality in Wikipedia

I read through the many arguments, debates, and requests on this topic and acknowledge both sides. I understand that Wikipedia should follow verified sources, and news is one. However, at the same time, many people see Wikipedia as a neutral and objective website and a foundation for their own opinions. News sources are verified, but that does not mean they are objective. They will use more powerful imagery for views at the time, and the strong word "hoax" is one.

Wikipedia does not shy away from euphemisms, and on whatever side you are on, I think you can agree that "incident" is a neutral word that still means the same thing. Wikipedia can present the sources inside the article, show the media's explanation, and the user can make their own opinion on whether he is guilty or not.

Yes, people should bother news instead, but search for balloon boy on any search engine. The first link that shows up is Wikipedia, it will display Wikipedia on the side, and most search engines trust Wikipedia as a neutral source to display to the user. Wikipedia is important, the start of any understanding of this subject, not the news. And the first step to anyone's research would be a giant title saying "Hoax."

I'm not arguing we should use Wikipedia as the start of some movement, absolutely not. I am not arguing that the title should be "Misunderstanding" - I'm saying that it should be a neutral word between both sides. "Incident". Or a common suggestion - drop it and have "Balloon Boy." It is already unique enough, and from there, the user can make their own decision.

This will probably be ignored/deleted or something, but I just want to get my opinion out. I've never seen Wikipedia as just a regurgitation of what the news says, especially with how news is now trending towards a path of less reliability for more views. With that, I'm scared some event will happen, the news writes a wrong story on it, and Wikipedia is forced to forever stick to its story. 99.7.231.127 (talk) 05:12, 25 January 2023 (UTC)

I've never seen Wikipedia as just a regurgitation of what the news says - Unfortunately this is almost by definition what Wikipedia is and aims to be. Of course it's not just "news", it's supposed to be reliable sources, which may include reliable news sources. Unfortunately in this case the balloon boy incident is pretty low stakes, so I doubt any reliable news source is interested in revisiting it. I do agree that a lot of news sources are not very thorough about what & how they report, but to be honest Internet Historian is a far worse source than what's used now, even if the video is entertaining and/or informative. And what would you have, Wikipedia make up its own stories? It's really just not Wikipedia's job (the editors' jobs) to determine "truth". HarryKernow (talk) 22:51, 26 January 2023 (UTC)

And Wikipedia shouldn't find the truth, but Wikipedia has held that they hold a Neutral Point of View. Calling the title "Balloon Boy Incident" or just "Balloon Boy" does not detract from the truth, does not suggest anything, in fact it is the literal definition of neutrality. From there on, the user can read the sources and determine whether it is a hoax or not.

Wikipedia is in no formal obligation to include the word "hoax", it is already commonly referred to as "Balloon Boy". In fact, look at the sources listed in references and few say the entire name of "Balloon Boy Hoax". There is no formal statement that the name of this incident is the full "Balloon Boy Hoax", a lot simply call the incident itself "Balloon Boy" and say it is a "Hoax". Therefore, it's their claim and not an official name for the incident.

A lot of people already pointed this out, and I doubt this will convince anyone, but Wikipedia adding the word Hoax in the title is pretty unique for this article. Going to the List of hoaxes, few of them actually have the word "Hoax" in their title. It's interesting that something that recently sparked controversy still maintains this non-regulatory stance.

Using the word Hoax forces Wikipedia to take a side when in reality it should be neutral and say the truth: The police claims it is a hoax, Richard Heene claims it is not, and here are the first hand sources. Wikipedia does not need to make up a story or use an unreliable Youtube video, but it also should not use a influenceable word in it's title. 99.7.231.127 (talk) 01:38, 29 January 2023 (UTC)

According to Wikipedia's guidelines, 'neutrality' is reporting on things the same way sources do. Without changing the message or tone. We don't always achieve it, but that is the type of neutrality Wikipedia strives for. 'Neutrality' does not necessarily mean presenting both sides equally or anything like that. See WP:YESBIAS.

Anyway, there's not really anything unusual or surprising happening here. Consider that it's not actually unusual for a convicted criminal to tell a good story that conflicts with all other sources. That's pretty standard and mundane. Readers can almost take it as given that if a person is convicted of a crime, the convicted person claims they shouldn't have been. That's not nearly enough to rename all crimes as "incidents".

ApLundell (talk) 02:20, 29 January 2023 (UTC)

Sorry, not exactly sure what you are saying here. We of course must include the media's point of view, but as you said, that does not mean we can edit the title to include their point of view. I'm only arguing about the title, the unofficial essay you linked seems to be more about the actual content. The content should absolutely include the full story the same way the media says.

The official guidelines on Naming says that, for Article Titles, opinion-based words like "Hoax" should only be used when it is more recognizable with [1], so I guess you can make the argument that the word "Hoax" is essential. I won't go into that argument as that is hard to argue, but I will say search up "Balloon Boy" and most media would refer it to 'Balloon Boy' in quotations and the word Hoax off to the side; I doubt anyone will not recognize "Balloon Boy" without the word "Hoax" 99.7.231.127 (talk) 00:51, 1 February 2023 (UTC)

WP:POVNAMING states, " If a name is widely used in reliable sources (particularly those written in English) and is therefore likely to be well recognized by readers, it may be used even though some may regard it as biased."

"Hoax" mentions:

• The Guardian: "Couple behind 2009 'balloon boy' hoax in US granted pardons"
• 5280: "The Balloon Boy Hoax—Solved!"
• USA Today: "‘Balunacy’: Colorado’s ‘balloon boy’ hoax is still a talker 10 years later"
• BBC News: "'Balloon boy hoax' parents pardoned in Colorado"
• NBC News: "Parents convicted in 'balloon boy' hoax pardoned by Colorado governor"
• CNN: "Authorities: 'Balloon boy' incident was a hoax"
• Deadline: "‘Wife Swap’ Couple Pardoned By Colorado Governor For 2009 “Balloon Boy” Hoax"
• Vulture: "Wife Swap Couple Pardoned by Colorado Governor for 2009’s ‘Balloon Boy’ Hoax"
• Reuters: "Mom admits to "Balloon Boy" hoax: court record"
• WaPo: "Parents of ‘Balloon Boy,’ the hoax that captivated and confused the nation, pardoned by Colorado governor"

Other terms:

• FOX31: "What did dad of ‘Balloon Boy’ tell 911 dispatchers 13 years ago?"
• CPR News: "Colorado ‘Balloon Boy’ Parents Pardoned, But They Don’t Admit To Hoax"
• Denver 7: "Ten years later: The truth comes out behind family's viral 'Balloon Boy' stunt in Fort Collins"
• NY Times: "Parents of ‘Balloon Boy’ Are Pardoned by Colorado’s Governor"

In this case I think media is using "hoax", and in cases they aren't they are carefully avoiding taking a "side". It seems fair for Wikipedia to continue using the current title and to mention any controversies in the text itself. HarryKernow (talk) 01:45, 4 February 2023 (UTC)

Again, most articles including the ones you mentioned put “Balloon Boy” in quotations, inferring that the incident name is called “Balloon Boy” and their opinion of it is a hoax (Though admittedly 2/14 of your examples do put the whole “Balloon Boy Hoax”).

As you say and in the guidelines, “If a name is widely used in reliable source…and is therefore likely to be well recognized by readers it may be used” I doubt that adding “Hoax” makes it more recognizable - both the news emphasizing “Balloon Boy” and the general populace see that Balloon Boy is distinct enough.

There is no official, news, or population agreed upon the name - searching only “Balloon Boy” in search engines returns many examples of news using only Balloon Boy with no concern of their incorrect naming.

If you truly think that “Balloon Boy” and “Balloon Boy Hoax” are not interchangeable and removing the word Hoax does harm the recognizability of the article, I can’t really argue that. All I can say is that compared to the examples given like Jack the Ripper and Boston Massacre, adding Hoax does not seem as vital. 75.16.180.163 (talk) 23:55, 27 February 2023 (UTC)

"Vital" is a loaded word here. It's about choosing the best name. It's not about changing to your preferred name unless the current one is absolutely "vital". That's the wrong standard to apply here. ApLundell (talk) 04:25, 28 February 2023 (UTC)

Not quite sure what you mean. Are you saying that we should generally just leave inaccuracies in any article because they're not absolutely vital to fix? //Lollipoplollipoplollipop::talk 13:31, 28 February 2023 (UTC)

No. I'm saying that we should use the best, most recognizable name for the article.

Presenting it as though the name should obviously be changed unless the current one is "absolutely vital" is a biased framing of the question at hand.

It's an attempt to bait people into arguing against an impossible standard. ApLundell (talk) 16:28, 28 February 2023 (UTC)

The most recognizable name is "Balloon Boy", outnumbering "Balloon Boy Hoax" 100 to 7 during the peak according to [2]Google Trends Data

Even during current times, in the past year it outnumbered 31 to 1 despite the Article name being "Balloon Boy hoax" 75.16.180.163 (talk) 03:54, 8 March 2023 (UTC)

“If a name is widely used in reliable source…and is therefore likely to be well recognized by readers it may be used” -- the wording clearly supposes recognition on wide usage. Therefore proof of widespread (or overwhelmingly widespread as a quick Google search can show) use is all that is needed, not a discussion of whether it will actually be recognized. The use is the deciding factor. The policy is clear that even seemingly biased titles may be used under these circumstances.

Furthermore, with the addition of the alternative name you suggested in the lead (as per MOS:BOLDSYN) and the appropriate redirect in place, I fail to see any substantive reason to change this page's title. HarryKernow (talk) 05:01, 2 March 2023 (UTC)

The rules clearly state that biased Article Titles have only be used when "widely used...and therefore likely to be well recognized"

It isn't widely used, even the names in their example mostly (12/14) use "Balloon Boy" as the name of the incident and calling it a hoax, formatted as "Balloon Boy" hoax. In fact, the CNN one even says "Balloon Boy" incident was a hoax

If you say those 2 articles are enough to show it is widely used enough to justify a biased name, then I can't really argue. But with no official, media, nor population consensus, I would argue that "well recognized" rule is not met. 75.16.180.163 (talk) 03:34, 8 March 2023 (UTC)

Further evidence: [3]Google Trends Data

"Balloon Boy" outnumbers "Balloon Boy Hoax" 100 to 7 during the peak. 75.16.180.163 (talk) 03:37, 8 March 2023 (UTC)

After November 2014, searches for "Balloon Boy" will be dominated by FNAF related content. It's better to limit it to news search or cut it off at 2014. Both these trends data lines follow your arguments. //Lollipoplollipoplollipop::talk 11:18, 8 March 2023 (UTC)

The rule is not "well recognized", it's "widely used", as I've explained before. Furthermore, your argument was to change the title to "Balloon boy incident", not "Balloon boy", so I fail to see the utility in comparing the two. CNN source was clear in calling it a 'hoax' and as I already linked before plenty others just call it "... hoax". And to top that all off, replacing your flawed query reveals that the "hoax" wording is more common than "incident" in all states with data (src). HarryKernow (talk) 11:30, 8 March 2023 (UTC)

The rule specifically states “widely used” by reliable sources AND “well recognized” by readers [1]. The recognizability is equal, if not worse, than just “Balloon Boy”, so there is no point in it. Even if we assume it is widely used by news, the second part of the exception is not satisfied.

The original did argue for just “Balloon Boy”, but the main point is that “hoax” breaks the neutrality, and it should only be broken if it is well recognizable. It should be replaced with a neutral “incident,” dropped completely, or any form of neutral title. In fact, I actually prefer just “Balloon Boy”. 75.16.180.163 (talk) 22:46, 16 March 2023 (UTC)

No, it says "is widely used and is therefore likely to be well recognized" - i.e. if it is widely used, it is well recognized. I did miss the argument for just "Balloon Boy", but 1. they did argue for the "incident" wording as well, and 2. it's not about the boy, but the event. I would much prefer "incident" over just "Balloon Boy" for that reason. Regardless, it seems to me that the "Hoax" wording is indeed common and therefore likely to be recognized, but if you want more eyes on this, I would recommend starting a discussion at WP:NPOVN (please tag me if you do). HarryKernow (talk) 23:19, 16 March 2023 (UTC)

It does not "break neutrality" to call a hoax a hoax.

What you're really arguing is that it is not a hoax. Or that there is some serious doubt. That discussion has happened many times, and you're not bringing anything new to the table.

ApLundell (talk) 02:08, 17 March 2023 (UTC)

I want to note that this is, very likely, a minor example of citogenesis. When reporters Google the Balloon Boy incident, the first result that comes up is the Wikipedia article "Balloon Boy Hoax." This is as close to an official name for the incident as they can find, so they repeat the Wikipedia title in their article (or headline). These articles, subsequently, are used within Wikipedia as justification for not changing the title.

As evidence of this, the exact words "Balloon Boy Hoax," in that order, seem to mostly appear in more recent articles. 2600:8806:6101:1700:DCA7:F9B7:8AA6:1C23 (talk) 00:09, 7 March 2023 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 12 July 2023

In Popular Culture: the Balloon boy hoax is mentioned in the Fallout Boy rendition of Billy Joel's Hit Single We didn't start the fire Rayven1203 (talk) 15:44, 12 July 2023 (UTC)

 Not done: it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a "change X to Y" format and provide a reliable source if appropriate.  Not done: please provide reliable sources that support the change you want to be made. Xan747 (talk) 01:05, 13 July 2023 (UTC)

YES, IS TRUE — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2001:FB1:15D:9BBB:7DE5:28F7:659E:A953 (talk) 05:06, 16 January 2024 (UTC)