Talk:My Country, 'Tis of Thee

Title of song

Is this song also known as "America", or is there some other song sung to the tune of God Save The King/Queen by that name? I ask because Charles Ives wrote a piece of music called Variations on "America", and the theme in that is God Save the Queen/King. --Camembert

Same tune. (I love the Ive's piece!) -- Someone else 02:02 Nov 5, 2002 (UTC)

So do I, although I've never heard the original (for solo organ), only William Schuman's arrangement for orchestra - I think the flamenco bit is hilarious in that. So does "America" have the same words as "My Country, Tis of Thee", or are they different, or, indeed, does it lack words altogether? I've often wondered, never known. --Camembert

Yes, "America" is just an alternative title; the words are identical. The (non-transcribed) organ "Variation" is a real kick - I think that Ives said the variation on the pedals was more fun than a baseball game - I heard it on a tracker organ in New Haven that Ives had played. But the Schuman arrangement is very nice too, manages to get the whimsical mood (and the flamenco stuff always makes me smile!). -- Someone else

I used to play the organ (rather poorly, but well enough to get to play a couple of nice instruments) - would've been fun to tackle that piece, though I suspect I would have ended up in knots! Anyway, thanks for the info - I'll add the alternative title to the article. --Camembert

Are we sure it's not actually called "America?" I've always heard it as such, and falsely called "My Country 'Tis of Thee." Websites seem pretty split on it, referring to it as both names. can anyone find a definitive source? jfg284 ^{you were saying?} 19:03, 4 December 2005 (UTC)

Interestingly, the melody in the Episcopal hymnal is named "America" (which is kind of funny given that the same melody was a British patriotic song before ever it was about America). The Wednesday Island 16:18, 3 September 2006 (UTC)

Somebody found the original manuscript behind a picture of a flower purchased @ a flea market for 10 dollars. Manuscript is now owned by art collector Morgan Morgan. Somebody with more time than me should add a section or reflect the fact that the original manuscript has been discovered!! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 198.66.73.226 (talk) 17:40, 4 July 2008 (UTC)

In Marian Anderson's Lincoln Memorial Concert, she sang of thee we sing. I know it isn't the version with which I was familiar, however it was rebroadcast as part of the ‘We Are One’ Inaugural Concert. 88.115.12.126 (talk) 20:43, 18 January 2009 (UTC)

"Are we sure it's not actually called 'America?' " Actually, I'm sure that it actually is "America". That's the title. The phrase "My country 'tis of thee" is the first line of the lyrice (the incipit), but it is not the title. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 66.19.202.163 (talk) 01:51, 12 December 2015 (UTC)

I actually think that the title of the article should be "America (My Country, 'Tis of Thee)" -- I have never seen the song called anything but "America" in any song book. -- Michael Scott Cuthbert (talk) 23:26, 24 March 2018 (UTC)

Strongly agreed. Shall we change it? –Roy McCoy (talk) 00:12, 28 May 2019 (UTC)

One problem I can see with this idea is that "America" is also the name of a Simon & Garfunkel song, as verified here. So if the name were to change, there would need to be a disambiguation note added to this article. Additionally, a cursory Google search for "America" yields many other results aside from this song. Further, searching My Country 'Tis of Thee yields quite a few results verifying the use of the title of this song as is. Just wanted to throw this information in for consideration. If these issues can be worked around successfully, I might be more inclined to speak in favor of renaming the article. As it is, I cannot presently support that idea. Just some thoughts from me, for what they might be worth. Thanks. --Jgstokes (talk) 00:49, 28 May 2019 (UTC)

There being another song with the title "America" is no problem, as in fact there are 21 different songs with that title listed on the "America" disambiguation page. A disambiguation note would not be necessary. The other "America" finds don't constitute anything special or problematical. So the only remaining thing I see is the question of whether the title has actually changed over the years from "America" to "My Country(,) 'Tis of Thee". It was always "America" for sure, at least in Michael's and my experience. Checking on this with Google is going to be tough, with "My country, 'tis of thee" in the song's lyrics.

Oh, but look: The sheet music pictured at the top of the article has "America (My Country, 'Tis of Thee)" as the title. I think that's enough to put the traditional title over. Thanks for reminding me that I said I was going to try to brush up the History section a little. I'll do that now, though hesitatingly and inviting revision if anybody knows better than I do or if I make a mistake. Thanks. –Roy McCoy (talk) 01:08, 28 May 2019 (UTC)

In George Orwell's Nineteen Eighty-Four, the anthem of Oceania, the transatlantic domain in which the novel is set, is called Oceania, 'Tis of Thee; which is obviously supposed to evoke both America and God Save, etc., only renamed for a future with no historical recollection of its own past. Note that the film version also uses a patriotic hymn with this title, but an entirely different tune (it plays over the endtitles in its entirety).

Nuttyskin (talk) 17:21, 13 October 2022 (UTC)

Cultural references

I don't want to start an edit war by reverting the Latest reinstatement of the Obama inauguration reference], but I don't believe this (or the Marian Anderson Lincoln Memorial performance) belong in a Cultural References section. They are not references to the song within other creative works, which both on this page and on others is the purpose of the section.

I suggest we separate them out into a Notable Performances section. Do any editors have an objection to this?

We don't seem to have a guideline on Cultural References sections, although the essay WP:POPCULTURE is worth reading. Barnabypage (talk) 18:33, 26 January 2009 (UTC)

I've now created a Notable Performances section. Barnabypage (talk) 18:18, 28 January 2009 (UTC)

while wearing a fabulous hat.

under notable performances it read: "On January 20, 2009 Aretha Franklin sang the song at the inauguration of President Barack Obama while wearing a fabulous hat."

Entertaining as this line is I have removed it because it doesn't really fit with the style of an encyclopedia, it was a very nice hat though! 92.22.22.44 (talk) 10:35, 24 April 2009 (UTC)

Wrong Music

The link to the music on this page is not "My Country Tis of Thee". It is "America the Beautiful". —Preceding unsigned comment added by 98.27.177.191 (talk) 00:29, 29 April 2011 (UTC)

Modern Usage?

As far as I know, its not a commonly used song in any large public/private congregation (eg: Sporting events, large political events, or regularly scheduled events). However I do remember every K-6, 6-8, 7-8, and K-5 schools in my county routinely used this song in congregations of students. I figure that this is relevant to the article, and I know that other people in my locale will agree with me, but I am unsure if this is a local trend (Southern California) or if its a national trend. I also do not know of an easy way to reference this as applicable to a large audience.68.6.76.31 (talk) 10:42, 12 November 2011 (UTC)

I remember it being the only patriotic song we sang in elementary school in Eastern Massachusetts. I suspect it was preferred over the Star Spangled Banner, because it is much easier to sing. Bostoner (talk) 01:03, 18 August 2016 (UTC)

History

The History section as written does not seem to make sense. It says the lyrics were written for music in a German song-book, but also seems to imply the tune came from Muzio Clementi's Symphony No. 3. And then it jumps to the first performance and publication, with no mention of when or how the lyrics became attached to the God Save the King/Queen melody. Someone who knows the history ought to clarify and expand this. DSZ (talk) 04:03, 16 January 2012 (UTC)

I agree with this 2012 comment and was just about to post something similar. "His friend Lowell Mason had asked him to translate the lyrics in some German school songbooks or to write new lyrics. A melody in Muzio Clementi's Symphony No. 3 (also called 'The Great National' and contains the melody of 'God Save the Queen' as a tribute to Clementi's adopted country) caught his attention. Rather than translating the lyrics from German, Smith wrote his own American patriotic hymn to the melody, [...]" This doesn't actually say the lyrics were written, or were to be written, for music in a German songbook, so it's even less clear than indicated in the 2012 post. If the translation or translations were for the July 4 performance, this could be clarified and the section would thus be improved. I can't do this myself, however, as I'm not familiar with the topic and presently have no sources (at least not printed ones) at my disposal. I'll try to touch this up a bit regardless, but I think something else is needed. –Roy McCoy (talk) 00:05, 28 May 2019 (UTC)

Clementi's Symphony No. 3 contains a variation on the God Save the Queen melody. The editor might have meant that My County Tis of Thee is meant to be sung to Clementi's arangement of the British national anthem, but Clementi did not write the tune himself. Often, Americans seem to dislike the idea that My Country 'Tis of Thee is based on the British national anthem and try to attribute alternative sources to it; including suggesting it was invented by an American. Clementi had a particular love of Britain, and I think symphony no. 3 is explicitly nationalistic. I think originally the tune for God Save the Queen comes from an old Scottish carol, from the 17th century. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 92.9.13.226 (talk) 07:40, 8 July 2012 (UTC)

I always thought of it as a matter of the Americans giving a tongue-in-cheek ribbing to the British: rewriting old-world British monarchy as new-world American liberty and freedom. Antinoos69 (talk) 07:31, 31 May 2018 (UTC)

"Additional" Verses

Relevant as I'm sure they are, I really wouldn't consider the abolitionist verses as 'additional' so much as a straightforward parody of the first verses of the song. They match up nearly one-for-one save for the references to slavery. I really don't think anyone would consider those verses to be in succession of one another, but rather a differing version of the song reflecting the nation's colored past, a choice of words I may regret. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2620:0:1004:0:BE30:5BFF:FED0:7B26 (talk) 21:54, 9 October 2013 (UTC)

I had never heard of the abolitionist versions of various songs until a recent YouTube video pointed this out. It seems like this deserves a mention or at least a See Also link, but I can't really find a page under Wikipedia that discusses it. Speed8ump (talk) 01:36, 7 December 2015 (UTC)

I know this is an old discussion, but I wholeheartedly agree with OP. The abolitionist version is definitely not just some set of "additional versus" as it's called in the article. The alternative version even starts with the same exact first line, but then goes on to present a different message entirely. I'm not sure parody is the right word, but it's certainly not just a continuation of the original song. — Satori Son 16:07, 6 November 2019 (UTC)

I agree and changed it.--The Eloquent Peasant (talk) 16:47, 6 November 2019 (UTC)

Thanks, looks good. Whether it's notable enough to be in the article at all is probably another conversation for another time... — Satori Son 16:37, 11 November 2019 (UTC)

God save the Queen

The tune God Save the Queen has remarkably been used for the national anthem of some 14 countries. This will have been deliberate. I would question the statement that a German melody caught the arrangers eye. He must have known that it was God Save the Queen.Royalcourtier (talk) 00:46, 18 October 2014 (UTC)

Why do we even bring up God Save the Queen here? Without proof that one was based on the other, they are both songs that are stemmed from a german melody. As it reads now, it reads as if the Americans stole the british song. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 143.65.196.20 (talk) 14:35, 23 December 2014 (UTC)