Talk:Alice B. Toklas

Biography assessment rating comment

The article may be improved by following the WikiProject Biography 11 easy steps to producing at least a B article. -- Abebenjoe 21:43, 7 March 2007 (UTC)

Reference to 'toke' deleted

According to the Merriam-Webster Collegiate Dictionary, the etymology for 'toke' indicates that it comes from the Spanish word 'toque', meaning 'touch'. It has nothing to do with Toklas. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 72.72.55.218 (talk) 09:43, 27 November 2007 (UTC)

Photo request

I'm copying the following photo request that was made on Wikipedia:Requested_pictures/People. Tim Pierce (talk) 01:04, 24 May 2010 (UTC)

I'd like Man Ray photographs of Gertrude Stein and Alice B. Toklas. I've gone through the Man Ray Trust page, and I'm not sure how to go about requesting copyright release, whether it's a lost cause because of fees associated with his images, etc. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Traveler100 (talk • contribs) 11:42, October 18, 2007

Missing information

It seems to me that this article is not doing Alice B. Toklas enough justice. Toklas gave up most of her life to take care of Stein, beside being her lover for nearly 40 years. This in a time when homosexuality was not something that was readily discussed, let alone practised openly. After Stein died, Toklas wrote (cook)books (sometimes containing reminiscences of her and Stein). Strangely enough there is not a section on further reading. So I would recommend:

• Toklas, Alice B., Murder in kitchen, Penguin Books, 2011 (to be released), 112p, ISBN 978-0241951033
• Toklas, Alice B., The Alice B. Toklas Cookbook, Serif, 2004, 304p, ISBN 978-1897959190 or HarperPerennial, 2010, 320p, ISBN 978-0061995361
• Simon, Linda, The Biography of Alice B. Toklas, University of Nebraska Press, 1991, 427p, ISBN 978-0803292031
• Linzie, Anna, The True Story of Alice B. Toklas: A Study of Three Autobiographies, University of Iowa Press, 2006, 230p, ISBN 978-0877459859
• Diana Souhami, Gertrude and Alice: Gertrude Stein and Alice B.Toklas, 304p, Rivers Oram Press/Pandora List, 1992, ISBN 978-0044408338

The Alice B. Toklas Cookbook and What Is Remembered is often available from second hand book dealers (200+ pages, including photographs) and has been reprinted.

When Toklas died, nearly twenty years after Stein, she was buried in the same grave as Stein. It is speculated that this was against the wishes of Stein as Stein did not want to share the headstone, probably the reason why Toklas's name is on the back of the headstone. --JHvW (talk) 18:28, 30 August 2010 (UTC)

The Recipe

Can anyone confirm whether "Haschigh Fudge" or "Haschich Fudge" is the original spelling in The Cookbook? I've seen both online, but I haven't been able to find the original text.--Slowlikemolasses (talk) 21:25, 25 December 2012 (UTC)

"Polish army officer"

"her father was a polish arny officer" needs clarification; since she was born in 1877 & the last time there had been anything like an independent poland was the "grand duchy of warsaw", under napoleon i (dissovled after the napoleonic wars).

so either he was an army officer who was polish, serving in whatever forcess, or he served in the armies of russian poland, was a polish-austrian, or served the tiny rump city-state of krackow, between the 2; which itself didn't last beyond 1846...

Lx 121 (talk) 00:25, 17 November 2013 (UTC)

Maybe this will provide the answer.

From The Autobiography of Alice B. Toklas (from Gertrude Stein Writings 1903-1932):

"My father came of polish patriotic stock. His grand-uncle raised a regiment for Napoleon and was its colonel. His father left his mother just after their marriage, to fight at the barricades in Paris but, his wife having cut off his supplies, he soon returned and led the life of a conservative well to do land owner."

And from the biography of Alice B. Toklas (1877-1967) by Petri Liukkonen:

"She was the only child of Ferdinand and Emma (Levinsky) Toklas. Her father left Poland at the age of twenty and moved to the United States, where he worked first as a bookkeeper. After marrying Emma Levinsky, whose family also came from Poland, he established with his partners a mercantile firm in Seattle (Toklas and Singerman)."

Feibel (usually known as Ferdinand) Toklas was born in Kępno which is now in Poland but was previously part of the Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth, Kępno was annexed by the Kingdom of Prussia in the 1793 Second Partition of Poland. Administered within South Prussia from 1793–1807, it was part of the Napoleonic Duchy of Warsaw from 1807-1815. But I am not aware that Toklas was a soldier. As he was 18 (my sources tell me that he left for the USA in 1863, making him 18, not 20 as suggested by Liukkonen) when he left for the USA, I think he would probably have been too young anyway.

So it seems that there is some confusion about the army bit. This may have been to do with Coxey's Army, Ferdinand Toklas was involved in a committee devoted to helping farmers. Also I believe that Emma Levinsky was a German Jew (but then at this time the borders were blurred and it was not uncommon for Jewish families to relocate themselves). Some of the Toklas family I believe have served in the cavalry during the American Civil War, but I have no idea in what capacity. But in essence I believe that Ferdinand was a clothier and businessman and not a soldier.

JHvW 09:46, 27 January 2018 (UTC)

Grammatical confusion

In the sentence, "Toklas met Gertrude Stein in Paris on September 8, 1907, the day she arrived there from San Francisco after the devastating 1906 San Francisco earthquake," who is the antecedent of 'she'? The reader can't tell which one arrived in 1907. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 72.131.51.226 (talk) 13:45, 15 May 2016 (UTC)

External links modified

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Brendan Behan's poem

Can we put this in the legacy section? By Brendan Behan, who also lived in Paris in the 1950s:

I absolutely must decline

To dance in the streets with Gertrude Stein

And as for Alice B. Toklas

I'd rather Shakespeare and a great big box of chocolades

Well?78.16.103.7 (talk) 18:49, 20 May 2019 (UTC)

Cookbook

Popular culture reference to the cookbook is perhaps a TV quote involving ‘Samantha’ Stephens. 98.209.102.111 (talk) 12:44, 30 April 2023 (UTC)

Book signing

(Transferred from User talk:Montparnassearchive)

When an edit you made is reverted you should not simply restore it but discuss it on the article talk page - see WP:BRD. In this case, even more so I think - the text you added doesn't really make much sense and its relevance and/or importance is not clear. Perhaps you should explain what it is you think should be added and why so others can assist/advise?. Dorsetonian (talk) 22:27, 26 July 2023 (UTC)

Good evening Dorsetonian,

On the contrary, I have to thank you for the advice. As you may have gathered, the advice from previous edits has guided to a subsequently more succinct description. I have no dispute therefore. But I would like to know why you disagree with what has been written. Specifically what it is that you wish to have verified. If we start there then maybe we can get somewhere.

Best regards,

MA Montparnassearchive (talk) 23:07, 26 July 2023 (UTC)

(End of transfer)

The text was hard to read because the embedded links were askew and the punctuation awry. This is it verbatim:

Alice Toklas inscribed a copy of Smedley’s, Frank Farleigh, reading, “Adelaide Atkinson from Alice Toklas” [1]. On the page bearing Toklas’ signature, the first chapter begins below it, with verses from Act 2, Scene 3 [2] of Romeo and Juliet [3]. Adelaide Barbara Atkinson [4] , [5] was the mother of Constance Lloyd, later, Mrs Oscar Wilde [5].

My reading of this can be summarised and annotated thus: in the middle of a section about Toklas' relationship with Gertrude Stein we are told that Toklas signed a book (book and author relevance not clear) apparently dedicating it on a particular page (relevance not clear) to the person who would become Oscar Wilde's mother-in-law (significance not clear).

If you can explain that and there is consensus it (or your earlier contested additions) are relevant and verifiable I am sure we can help you include it. I have also added some links to your talk page which will help you with Wiki editing. Dorsetonian (talk) 07:39, 27 July 2023 (UTC)

Yes, I agree that it is more suitable to use this part of Wikipedia to expand on why I believe it an important addition. True also, that there is much context lost in condensing my summary to such a degree. So, your guidance in editing is much appreciated, and especially in creating of subtitle.

I will address the two points you raised: relevance and the specific page on which the dedication is made by Toklas. (You are correct in that the author of the book itself has no connection whatsoever to Toklas, Stein or either Wilde.)

It is not my suggestion that Stein or Toklas ever met Oscar or Constance (Lloyd) Wilde. In fact, when Stein and Toklas made visits to Cambridge, Oxford, London, both Constance and Oscar had already passed away. However, several of the Wilde circle (particularly Constance’s side) became good friends with Toklas and Stein. It is in this overlap where we find the context of Alice Toklas’ dedication and sympathy for Mrs. Wilde. In the years following the Wilde scandal, and their deaths, Constance became ‘poor Mrs. Wilde’ in the public mind. (There were many of course who withdrew their association.) Nevertheless, her personal story and childhood abuse by her mother (Adelaide Atkinson) became more widely known and documented. There is much to add to this, which for the present purpose would be a superfluous.

In regard of your second point, the page Toklas chose to inscribe is indeed odd at first glance. She wrote on the seventh page of the book (not the end-paper or title page, as is customary for presentation/dedication.) But it is here and directly below her inscription of: “Adelaide Atkinson from Alice Toklas” that follow several lines of Shakespeare. They’re verses concerning childhood, adventure, life, grasped or wasted: “…living dully… wear out thy youth…”

While Toklas’ interpretation of Shakespeare may be a point of contest among some, what is most relevant here is not this. I believe what is important here can be summarised as follows: Alice Toklas’ inscription addressed a woman whose only place in history is for the birth and tormenting of Constance Lloyd. Montparnassearchive (talk) 16:25, 27 July 2023 (UTC)

I am no expert in this area and I will leave it to others who watch this page to pitch in regarding the specifics. Speaking more generally: is it notable that Toklas signed this book and sent it to this person? It is not sufficient to show evidence merely that she did; any importance you assert to that event has to be backed up by reliable sources. Similarly, any significance in where it was signed within the book has to be backed up - your interpretation alone would be original research. Dorsetonian (talk) 16:45, 27 July 2023 (UTC)

I think the interpretation can be left to one side in any case, as it would be difficult indeed to interpret Toklas’ exact meaning. Hence, I cannot assert any interpretation. Nor do I wish to assert importance onto others. If there is importance in this, it will be arrived at anyway. That said, I agree that it is no good merely stating without at least something to grasp as contextual meaning. The evidence has been cross-examined by the British Library and deemed correct and authentic. As yet there is no direct link Toklas’s exact meaning here, other than contextual and by way of specific life events and her personal associations.

I’ll wait for others to put forward their views for now. Montparnassearchive (talk) 18:11, 27 July 2023 (UTC)