Talk:Abraham Whistler

Untitled

I swore, doesn't he die in the first film? He shoots himself doesn't he? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 69.22.56.251 (talk • contribs) .

In the 2nd film it's revealed vampires turned him right before death. Part of the beginning of film two is Blade rescuing and returning Whistler to human form.

Reception

An anonymous editor keeps adding to the WP:LEAD and putting WP:UNDUE emphasis on whitewashing criticism, WP:COATRACK. The lead is supposed to summarize the contents of the article not supplant it. That is why I moved the content into the article body. That editor does not seem to understand WP:NPOV or WP:UNDUE and went so far as to call me a bigot in his edit summary.[1] This editor seems more interested in grinding an axe than improving an encyclopedia article. I'm not entirely convinced this character article has done enough to show it is notable WP:GNG, but it definitely needs a lot more work.

I have again moved the criticism into the article body as the beginnings of a Reception section. The claim the the Christofferson was praised for his acting in the role still needs to be properly sourced. -- 109.76.199.85 (talk) 12:56, 1 January 2022 (UTC)

The anonymous editor has continues to make disruptive poorly and thought out edits.[2] This is still supposed to be an encyclopedia article about the character Abraham Whistler. Real world context and criticism can also be included but there is no excuse for putting WP:UNDUE weight on it using this article as a WP:COATRACK to pile on that recent criticism. Also WP:LEAD, many other editors make the same mistake but the disruptive editor continues to fail to understand that the lead is a summary of what is in article body.

It does not look like as if the anon editor has actually read the sources, and is adding information that is clearly incorrect: the comics continuum article says "Although Whistler first appeared in Fox's Spider-Man animated series with Blade, the character is a creation of screenwriter Goyer."[3] It is absolutely wrong to put created by John Semper in the Infobox.

WP:BRD Bold changes were made, they were reverted, the anon editor needs to stop and discuss. -- 109.78.201.165 (talk) 14:19, 5 January 2022 (UTC)

Anon still has not bothered to discuss and keeps making large disruptive edits instead of smaller clearer changes. It is still not clear that the anon IP has even read the above comments or the sources but the article itself already says John Semper adapted the character from Goyer's then-unfilmed screenplay. Anon is either not reading or wilfully misinterpreting the sources and determined to put WP:UNDUE emphasis on a minor issue.

WP:BRD Bold changes were made, they were reverted, the anon editor needs to stop and discuss. That he has not done so already "is against Wikipedia policy" to use his own words. -- 109.76.203.58 (talk) 18:29, 6 January 2022 (UTC)

You are the disruptive anon here, removing the reception and whitewashing mentions entirely and rendering this page non-notable. I read the sources and your changes. There is a developing for television tag, so I will move John Semper there, it is more suitable. 89.19.88.85 (talk) 20:24, 6 January 2022 (UTC)

I'm not convinced the emphasis you are putting on Semper is appropriate but that is only part of the problem. For example but not limited to removing the tidy list templates from the Infobox for no apparent reason, restoring an utterly unnecessary wiki link of the word American, reordering the Reception section. The unnecessary emphasis about whitewashing is still a problem. The claim that Whistler is based on Jamal Atari is unsourced and original research WP:OR again "the character is a creation of screenwriter Goyer." A replacement character can be whitewashing but he is still a separate character, not from comics and claiming he is based on the comics is misleading.

The claim that John Semper specifically adapted Whistler is not even clear, the episode of Spider-Man that included Blade "Neogenic Nightmare Chapter 9: Blade the Vampire Hunter" has 3 credited writers, Stephanie Mathison, Mark Hoffmeier, and John Semper. -- 109.76.203.58 (talk) 00:15, 7 January 2022 (UTC)

Your edit warring was not okay, there is lots more that needs to be discussed before making further changes and I will continue to restore the WP:STATUSQUO until this is properly discussed like it should have been done ages ago. -- 109.76.203.58 (talk) 21:05, 6 January 2022 (UTC)

And your acts of vandalism are not okay, although I do believe you mean well anon. While developed for Blade, you are ignoring the fact that Whistler still debuted in Spider-Man. There are literally so many sources about Afari so you are talking absolute nonsense by claiming unrelation; I will move those sources directly after that if that is better for you. I will delink American, and keep the original list templates, that is not problem: if that was your actual problem you should have said so. I will concede to a "sometimes" in front of the "criticized as whitewashing" in spite of the fact that though most of the references on this page mention it. Is there anything else? 89.19.88.54 (talk) 21:24, 6 January 2022 (UTC)

Anon does not seem to understand the many mistakes he's making, not seem understanding WP:BRD being the biggest one, but WP:UNDUE emphasis being another. WP:UNCIVIL behavior such as calling another editor a "bigot" would get him banned if this was an article any admins actually cared about.

If there are "literally so many sources" then don't just say it, if it is so easy to prove then show it now, don't claim that you will do it later. Whistler is/was a new and separate character: Cinefantastique magazine said on page 23 "A new character to the film is Blade's wise mentor, Abraham Whistler"; Sci Fi Universe magazine page 52 "Abraham Whistler, one of Goyer's original characters". Anon is misunderstanding the fact that Abraham Whistler is an original character not from the comics and getting that mixed up with the separate issue that in some ways he replaced an existing character called Jamal Afari (which some people have called that whitewashing). It has not been shown that Abraham Whistler is anything other than an "original character" created by Goyer, albeit an unoriginal sidekick/mentor archetype. (Things get changed when a work is adapted into film, for example the film Spawn (1997 film) replaced one character from the comics called Chapel with another character called Priest, but they are two entirely separate characters, fully and legally distinct in fact.) You cannot and should not claim that one thing is based on the other, they may not be totally different but they are different enough. The whitewashing criticism still exists but it does not make the Whistler character "based on" Afari character, the sources never actually say that. It is also not about specifically the word "some"/"sometimes" it is about the WP:UNDUE emphasis anon keeps putting on the whitewashing. The minor criticism decades after the fact only matters because the character was praised, but we've multiple sources for the minor criticism, and until I added one we had no actual sources saying the character was praised. (This is all on top of the fact that Blade himself was only a minor obscure comic character who didn't even have his own regular comic, if Whistler matters at all it is only because Wesley Snipes was such a badass as Blade.) This is supposed to be an encyclopedia article about the character Abraham Whistler but anon has tried to make it as an article about another separate character Jamal Afari, and a WP:COATRACK to put WP:UNDUE emphasis on the whitewashing criticism. The article still needs to be improved to do more about the character Abraham Whistler and stop putting so much undue emphasis elsewhere. -- 109.76.203.58 (talk) 23:59, 6 January 2022 (UTC)

Banging on about Jamal Afari in this article about Abraham Whistler is like emphasizing ("fifth Beatle") Pete Best in an article about Ringo Starr, you can mention it briefly but you sure shouldn't put any extra emphasis on it. WP:UNDUE.

I'm still waiting for actual discussion instead of more edit warring from anon, but it should be clear by now that reliable sources say Jamal Afari and Abraham Whistler are separate characters. Whistler is an original creation of Goyer. It is wrong for the Infobox to claim that Whistler is "based on" the comics, the sources do not support that at all. (Anon89 knows this, and editing another even said "Abraham Whistler is not in Marvel Comics. He was an original creation"[4])

There is another minor detail that I should perhaps clarify: Template:Infobox character refers to first first_major and first_minor appearances of a character. The documentation describes major works as including "TV series, films, books, albums and games" and minor works "TV episodes, chapters, songs and game missions" and so based on template the documentation the appearance of Whistler in a couple of episodes of the Spider-Man cartoon is only a minor appearance, and the first major appearance of the character was in the 1998 Blade film. -- 109.78.197.54 (talk) 16:13, 9 January 2022 (UTC)

The article is in dispute so neither of us should be making changes until we've discussed it and come to some kind of consensus but also don't change the short description until you have read the documentation and understand what it is there for. It isn't what you think it is, it is supposed to be short and just enough to disambiguate this Whistler from any other similar search results. -- 109.76.203.58 (talk) 00:07, 7 January 2022 (UTC)

Tangent: Kris Kristofferson 2010 interview with The AV Club, when asked about Blade and Whistler he says "it’s the only one people nowadays identify me with. [Laughs.] It seems like everybody, the civilians I talk to bring that one up."[5] So arguably (with minor caveats) he himself admits Whistler is his best known role.
Found it while looking for sources, and while it doesn't seem useful right this minute maybe at some point when many other problems with the article are fixed, we might be able to find an appropriate place to include a minor detail like that somewhere. -- 109.76.203.58 (talk) 00:30, 7 January 2022 (UTC)

Abraham Whistler is an original character created by David Goyer (see sources above). I have gone ahead removed the statements that claimed otherwise. It was misleading for the Infobox to list the character as "based on" the comics when no reliable sources make that claim. (This article has long been poorly sourced and included original research, I suspect this resulted in circular reporting or WP:CITOGENESIS and the whitewashing criticism decades after the fact. People can still say it was whitewashing to add a new character when an old character could have been adapted instead if they want, but in context it is trivial when looking at the the two great lead actors Wesley Snipes and N'Bushe_Wright.) The fact remains that Abraham Whistler is an original character created by David Goyer. -- 109.76.209.28 (talk) 14:03, 11 January 2022 (UTC)

Same editor seems to be at it again.[6] Reliable sources call Whistler an original character created by Goyer. That does not mean he is not a generic character, but he is different enough. Hero stories often include archetypes and Whistler is a something of a mentor character. The comics also featured a different mentor character. Editors do not get to say Whistler was based on the comics when reliable sources have clearly said otherwise. -- 109.78.192.111 (talk) 06:31, 24 April 2022 (UTC)

I have reverted another attempt to reinstate the same old ax grinding.[7] Aside from restoring the same contrived grievances created long after the film was released. The edit also restores various minor errors, some of which I've already criticized above (overlinking simple words like American is probably the most obvious example).

The best I can say is that it is WP:UNDUE. I cannot prove the worst, this whole thing still seems like WP:CITOGENESIS. -- 109.79.78.48 (talk) 22:49, 11 November 2022 (UTC)

Attempted axe grinding reverted again.[8] Reliable sources clearly state that Abraham Whistler "the character is a creation of screenwriter Goyer". It is misleading and WP:UNDUE to insert into the lead section the claim that "Whistler replaces the role of Jamal Afari". -- 109.76.196.193 (talk) 18:55, 25 September 2023 (UTC)

The anon ip 193.1.39.1 was blocked for 2 years for other disruptive edits. -- 109.76.196.193 (talk) 18:59, 25 September 2023 (UTC)