Talk:Abortion law

Latest comment: 8 days ago by Lpsavoie in topic Canada

Why was contraceptive failure removed from the map key? edit

I don’t understand why user 7szz removed contraceptive failure from the map key. I think it needs to be mentioned in the article, as India and Laos adding it as an exception to their laws is a very significant development, considering that the data I’ve seen shows that the majority of abortions are of pregnancies that resulted from contraceptive failure, and other countries might follow them, as it was added in early 2021 in India and that seems to have possibly inspired Laos to add it as well later that year.

Have other countries also added it to their laws, or does it seem like they might? I think it’s really important to note the countries that have, for the reasons I’ve already mentioned, and to explain what sorts of “proof” of which contraceptive methods failing might be required in the countries where contraceptive failure is an exception to abortion bans. (Sorry to go a bit off-topic, but I want to add that I think that info should be added for rape exceptions as well, as I’m sure the requirements differ greatly across different countries, like, for example, countries like Poland that require police involvement vs. countries like Ethiopia that only require the woman’s word.)

Also, I disagree with user 7szz’s claim that contraceptive failure is “included in socioeconomic ground”. And another very important thing that I think needs to be noted is what qualifies as allowing abortion to protect the woman’s health or life. There’s a big difference between countries that only allow abortion in the case of ectopic pregnancies and countries that essentially allow abortion on-request under the exceptions for protecting a woman’s health and life because they recognize that abortion always does that, as it does much less damage to a woman’s body than carrying a pregnancy to term does and has a much lower mortality rate.

I want to clarify that I’m not suggesting adding all of the things that I’ve mentioned or suggested to the main map itself at the top of the page, which is what I’ve been referring to (and which is, I have to say, an absolutely wonderful map that I appreciate a lot and the absolute best source I’ve ever seen on abortion laws around the world). But there are a few additional maps that have been added lower down in the article (the ones that focus more in detail on laws in Europe and U.S. states and Canadian provinces), and I was thinking that more maps could possibly be added that are like those but tackle the other things I’ve mentioned. 2600:100A:B1E2:2B0A:2414:8730:E191:B801 (talk) 13:24, 31 January 2024 (UTC)Reply

India added the criterion of contraceptive failure already in its first abortion law in 1971, but it was limited to married women. The change in 2021 was only to extend it to all women regardless of marital status. So by itself, this criterion for abortion is not new. It's possible that the change to the law in India inspired the regulation in Laos, but unless we find reliable sources that indicate so, it's speculation and should not be mentioned in the article.
The Indian law says that abortion is allowed in case the pregnancy involves a risk of "grave injury to her physical or mental health", then it adds an explanation that in case of contraceptive failure, "the anguish caused by such pregnancy may be presumed to constitute a grave injury to the mental health of the pregnant woman". The Laotian regulation lists contraceptive failure under the category of "social aspects", so user 7szz is correct at least in the case of Laos. Since neither of these countries lists contraceptive failure as a category on its own, I don't think that the map legend should do so either.
The only other country that I found which mentions contraceptive failure in its abortion law is Guyana, but it also allows abortion on request, the only difference is the gestational limit.
For all countries in the table, the categories of risk to life or health refer to risk of harm due to an abnormal medical condition, such as an ectopic pregnancy, which is much clearer and greater than the general minimal risk from a normal pregnancy. If a country allows abortion practically on request because it considers that any pregnancy is a potential risk to health, such as the UK, it's also marked as permitted in the columns of economic or social or on request. Note that even these countries still treat the two cases differently, for example abortion due to a clear risk to health is allowed at any time, but if only due to a potential or general risk from a normal pregnancy it has a gestational limit.
Feel free to add notes to the table if you'd like to clarify any detailed conditions in specific countries, but please add sources to support the information. Heitordp (talk) 04:37, 1 February 2024 (UTC)Reply
I wasn’t suggesting that speculation be added to the article, I was just pointing out how significant that development was and could be. I don’t see other countries following Israel’s example of allowing abortion on-request for all unmarried women and all married women with pregnancies that were not caused by their spouses, and it’s not considered as allowing abortion on-request in general, so I wouldn’t say that India really did allow abortion on the ground of contraceptive failure when it was limited to married women. And, although it’s a pretty broad term, I don’t see how someone choosing not to continue an accidental pregnancy is due to socioeconomic concerns and not someone’s desire to not go through pregnancy and childbirth to get a child they obviously didn’t want to have just because they had bad luck and contraceptives failed to do their job. It’s about physical health concerns.
You should know that EVERY pregnancy carries grave risks to the woman’s physical and mental health. My own mother could tell you about how she almost died giving birth despite doing everything “right” and not being considered “at risk” at all, in any way, with the only possibly “abnormal” thing being how well planned out the whole pregnancy was. There are only some things that statistically make those risks even more likely to occur than usual, but the risks are always there, and abortion is always infinitely safer than carrying a pregnancy to term. Carrying a pregnancy to term ALWAYS damages a woman’s body in ways that abortion could prevent, and where I am unfortunately forced to live, the maternal mortality rate is more than a hundred times higher than the abortion mortality rate.
I can’t add notes to the table myself because I don’t want to make an account, as keeping watch on pages would be too stressful for me because of how much I care. Thank you for pointing out Guyana, though, which I see has contraceptive failure listed with a limit of 16 weeks. I wasn’t aware of that because of the hidden nature of the notes. It’s so much easier to see things on the map (except for some of the tiny islands which are very difficult to locate). 2600:100A:B1E2:2B0A:2414:8730:E191:B801 (talk) 06:55, 1 February 2024 (UTC)Reply

Discrepancy on British Columbia edit

I’ve just noticed that, in the table, the Canadian province of British Columbia is listed as having a gestational limit of 24 weeks, but the map underneath that table that focuses on Canadian provinces shows it as being the only one with a limit of 25 weeks. Which is correct? The same discrepancy is also formatted in a different way in two spots in the article on “Abortion in Canada”. 2600:100A:B1E2:2B0A:2414:8730:E191:B801 (talk) 14:20, 31 January 2024 (UTC)Reply

The table cites two sources for Canada. In the first source, the figure says that British Columbia has a limit of 24 weeks and 6 days. In the second source, the figure also says 24 weeks and 6 days, but the text says 23 weeks and 6 days. I think that the text is more reliable than the figure. Heitordp (talk) 04:45, 1 February 2024 (UTC)Reply
Well, I found that the article on “Abortion in Canada” had the website for an abortion clinic in British Columbia cited, and that clinic’s website said they do abortions up to 25 weeks, and I feel like that’s going to be the most reliable source.
Here’s that site, which says “CARE Program provides abortions up to the 25th week of pregnancy”: http://www.bcwomens.ca/health-info/sexual-reproductive-health/abortion-services 2600:100A:B1E2:2B0A:2414:8730:E191:B801 (talk) 06:12, 1 February 2024 (UTC)Reply

Canada edit

In the table, the Canadian subdivisions are shown with gestational limits, with a note saying that they are set by professional regulations. The note cites two sources that mention the limits, but they don't clarify whether these limits are simply due to availability or actually mandatory regulations. Previously when Canada was discussed here, I provided sources about the professional guidelines in Quebec and Alberta, which did say that they were mandatory. However, in 2022 the College of Physicians of Quebec removed the gestational limit for abortion pills and removed the abortion guidelines from its website altogether;[1] the abortion guidelines from the College of Physicians and Surgeons of Alberta are no longer in its website either; and one of the sources cited in the table has a note from 2022 suggesting that the information there may be outdated due to the increased use of medical abortion (pills).[2] Therefore, there is no longer any source citing a provincial regulation that imposes gestational limits. There are also conflicting sources regarding the limits in some provinces, which suggests that they may vary simply due to availability.

Based on these developments, I suggest removing all subdivisions of Canada from the table, then either change all of Canada on the map to purple, which indicates an unclear limit, or set all columns of Canada in the table to "no limit" and accordingly change all of Canada on the map to light blue. Any comments? Heitordp (talk) 06:46, 5 February 2024 (UTC)Reply

https://nafcanada.org/abortion-coverage-region/ Moxy-  12:57, 5 February 2024 (UTC)Reply
@Moxy: This source is already cited in the table, but it doesn't clarify whether these limits are from mandatory regulations, which medical providers are supposed to follow at the risk of losing their licence, or simply reflect the limits that providers individually decide to establish for their own services. If it's the latter, I don't think that these limits should be in the table. Heitordp (talk) 05:04, 6 February 2024 (UTC)Reply
I think that Vietnam is actually another country with no legal limit. People keep repeating that 22-week limit, but I can’t find the source of that claim. There seem to only be two Vietnamese laws on abortion, both of which are just about prohibiting unqualified people from performing abortions on others while ensuring that women have the right and access to abortion, with no limits mentioned.
I noticed that someone recently edited the article on “Abortion in Vietnam” to state that abortion is “legal at all stages of pregnancy” there, but someone else changed it back to saying there’s a 22-week limit, even though I don’t see any source for that, only this source with the laws I mentioned: https://reproductiverights.org/maps/provision/vietnams-abortion-provisions/
Also, I have to say that I don’t think the “unclear limit” category is a good option to use at all. Not only because it’s really failing to provide any useful information, and could make it seem like abortion isn’t accessible at all since bans could restrict abortion even before actual pregnancy begins and “unclear limit” leaves that as a possibility despite us knowing that abortion is widely available on-request in Canada, but also because “unclear limit” is stating that there is a limit when there doesn’t seem to be. 2600:100A:B1C6:8A24:38C9:23EC:678:CFB4 (talk) 02:41, 13 February 2024 (UTC)Reply
Also, I found this source on the Abortion in Canada article a while back, which says that abortions “beyond 30 weeks” used to have to “be performed in the US with all expenses paid by the Quebec government” but apparently have been available in Quebec since 2020. It’s in French, and I don’t know French, but I plugged it into Google Translate, and that statement seemed to be accurately translating what was said: https://www.journaldemontreal.com/2021/08/03/des-avortements-tardifs-faits-au-quebec-a-cause-de-la-covid 2600:100A:B1C6:8A24:38C9:23EC:678:CFB4 (talk) 02:50, 13 February 2024 (UTC)Reply
The sources for all countries are cited in the table in the article. For Vietnam, the table cites the health law made by the parliament[3] and the guidelines made by the Ministry of Health.[4] Article 44 of the health law, which is also shown in the link that you cited, says that abortion is allowed on the woman's request, but that medical providers are prohibited from performing abortions unless permitted to do so by the Ministry of Health. Therefore, the law allows the Ministry of Health to impose some restrictions. Indeed, page 401 (407 in PDF) of the guidelines from the Ministry of Health defines abortion as the termination of pregnancy up to 22 weeks, and page 49 (55 in PDF) says that after 22 weeks the pregnancy may be terminated if there is an indication such as fetal abnormality. The latter case may be broad, but it's not merely by the woman's request. Accordingly, the table shows "permitted" in all columns except the last one (on request), for which it shows "22 weeks".
The "unclear limit" category is only for abortion on request, so it does provide useful information, namely that the jurisdiction allows abortion on request at least for some portion of the pregnancy. This portion cannot be zero. No jurisdiction sets a gestational limit before pregnancy begins, this doesn't make any sense. Jurisdictions that ban abortion on request do so by restricting it to certain circumstances, such as risk to life or fetal abnormality, or by prohibiting it completely.
It seems that in Canada there is really no law or regulation imposing any limit, so it can be shown with "no limit", but the "unclear limit" is still useful for some jurisdictions where the sources are conflicting or not clear. For example, there are sources saying that mainland China allows abortion on request, but also that it restricts it to certain cases, without explaining what they are. Other examples are South Korea and the Mexican state of Coahuila, whose courts ordered the legislature to allow abortion on request with some gestational limit, but the legislature hasn't defined the limit yet. Heitordp (talk) 07:04, 13 February 2024 (UTC)Reply
Abortions made in the third trimester are very rare procedures but in any case, there isn't a legal limit on abortions in Québec. If a doctor refuses to give an abortion, he must redirect you to one who will. see for instance https://educaloi.qc.ca/en/capsules/abortion/
As noted elsewhere, the Collège des médecins abolished any guidance that could have restricted abortions.
Reading the table, I'm coming to the conclusion that Québec has forbidden abortions for its residents after 24 weeks. However, recent policy has been to allow those abortions to take place, although in US hospitals with public funding by the Québec government. This table therefore seems erroneous and for Québec, it should simply be noted that it is permitted. Whatever restriction exists is regarding services offered and not legal constraints.
I'm not aware of legal restrictions in other provinces . so I won't comment on them. Lpsavoie (talk) 03:06, 10 April 2024 (UTC)Reply
That source is about services offered and not about legal limits though. The article doesn’t have any source that would back legal limits because I don’t think they exist: barriers to access come in the form of services that are offered and not from regulations AFAIK. Lpsavoie (talk) 02:37, 11 April 2024 (UTC)Reply

Colors and WP:npov edit

@Heitordp Colors have varying symbolism. It isn't a policy that certain colors give unbalanced views on wikipedia. I find   being used from Talk:List_of_states_and_union_territories_of_India_by_fertility_rate#RFC_style in many articles. Should the map's colors and keys be changed to have a more "neutral" perception? Maybe more grayscale. 207.96.32.81 (talk) 16:14, 10 April 2024 (UTC)Reply

I don't think that the current colors are really unbalanced, as abortion on request is shown in blue rather than green. Maybe a different set of colors could be used, but not grayscale, because the map needs to contrast 12 categories. Also note that the map is used in hundreds of articles so it would require a lot of work to change all the legends. Heitordp (talk) 16:38, 10 April 2024 (UTC)Reply