Talk:Abdelhamid Abaaoud

Untitled

Two interwikis: de:Abdelhamid Abaaoud, fr:Abdelhamid Abaaoud --Winternacht (talk) 23:51, 16 November 2015 (UTC)

how is this page not locked Apophenic (talk) 17:08, 18 November 2015 (UTC)

Is there a compelling reason for it to be? LjL (talk) 17:09, 18 November 2015 (UTC)

@Wester: what's the rationale for removing his name in Arabic? LjL (talk) 02:49, 19 November 2015 (UTC)

He's Belgian. Belgians have an official name in Latin script on their pasport. --Wester (talk) 02:51, 19 November 2015 (UTC)

If the other names he was known as are appropriately given their Arabic transliteration, why shouldn't his legal name, when it's factually a name from the Arabic language like the others? LjL (talk) 03:02, 19 November 2015 (UTC)

The other names are given names from IS. So they are in fact Arabic names translated back. But his official name 'Abdelhamid Abaaoud' is not an translation from an Arabic name but rather his official name. His only official name. His Arabic name is a translation from the official Latin name. That's the difference. --Wester (talk) 15:50, 19 November 2015 (UTC)

Names, per se, are in languages, not in writing systems. This makes the Arabic a transliteration, if anything, not a translation. Note that, on Wikipedia, the custom is to use WP:COMMONNAMEs and not necessarily "official" names, so, just as the other names that you claim were IS-given were this individual's common names, then as long as his official name after Arabic transliteration also was, it has the same standing. Would you be happy to include it with a source claiming he was commonly known as such in the Arabic world or by IS? LjL (talk) 15:54, 19 November 2015 (UTC)

Official names are in scripts. Belgian passports are language neutral. It's in Latin script and valuable in every language. A Flemish name for instance is also the official name in French the way it's written on the passport. An Arabic name is not in Arab letters but in Latin letters. Hence Abaaoud, which is not an Arab transliteration bur merely an invention from some Belgian civil servant. Also his personal name was not used by ISIS. There he was known as Abu Omar. So I see no point in mentioning the Arab transliteration of his Latin official name.--Wester (talk) 16:11, 19 November 2015 (UTC)

Wait... you're saying that somehow, the Latin script has the magic property that other scripts lack of being "language-neutral"? LjL (talk) 16:13, 19 November 2015 (UTC)

No, I said that Belgian names can not be pinned to a certain language. Every Belgian has one official name. Irrespective of language. The only exception is the king (Filip in Dutch, Philippe in French). And since Latin in the only script used in Belgium all Belgian names are in Latin script.--Wester (talk) 16:16, 19 November 2015 (UTC)

You keep talking about "official" but what about my arguments that Wikipedia doesn't generally care about "official"? The name is, by common sense and not by passport, a Latin transliteration of an Arabic name; his family had an Arabic surname; he's apparently known by his Arabic name(s); we should report it. Wikipedia isn't under Belgian law. LjL (talk) 16:19, 19 November 2015 (UTC)

His official name is his real name. That Arab name is just a transliteration used in Arab language. Why is that relevant? We don't include Berber translation eg.. My point is that Belgians don't have names in Arab script. Never. Even if the name is Arab of origin. Names can not be pinned to one language specific. Take Obama, is that an English name or a Kenyan name? You can argue both ways. The script in the language of origin is irrelevant. Especially since the common pronunciation (in both French, English, Dutch) differs from the Arab one and is not a pure transliteration. --Wester (talk) 16:36, 19 November 2015 (UTC)

Then by logic it would be relevant to know which pronunciation he used. LjL (talk) 18:17, 19 November 2015 (UTC)

Most Belgians or Moroccan descent use the language of the area they live in. Abaaoud's main language most likely was French. --Wester (talk) 21:47, 19 November 2015 (UTC)

Birthplace

German newsmagazine Der Spiegel writes: born in Anderlecht, Greater Brussels see here. 178.166.56.93 (talk) 20:21, 19 November 2015 (UTC)

Le Monde too: [1]. The French Wikipedia already changed his birthplace, what about here? Thibaut120094 (talk) 15:35, 23 November 2015 (UTC)

Dual nationality

This source (translated) says: "The alleged terrorist has dual Belgian and Moroccan nationality ..." But the source is Russia Today. Is this source regarded as a WP:RS? Is there any English language source that can corroborate the claim? Martinevans123 (talk) 22:40, 21 November 2015 (UTC)

It usually isn't regarded as anything like a WP:RS. LjL (talk) 22:41, 21 November 2015 (UTC)

If you want a better source here's Le Monde: [2] Thibaut120094 (talk) 15:34, 23 November 2015 (UTC)

Undoing major citation tidying-up

@Aikiangelos: what is your rationale for undoing this edit in its entirety? It predominantly consisted of useful fixes in citation format (while, before, the citations in this article were very markedly haphazard), with a couple really small rearrangements of content, which you apparently objected to. I think you should have edited back the content without undoing the major cleanup work; now, your revert can no longer be undone automatically, so it appears you've effectively rendered some potentially quite useful work useless. LjL (talk) 15:23, 24 November 2015 (UTC)

---

Convicted of Jean Pied Piper < What does this actually mean? Does it make any sense to you in the English language ?

Does this version:

He was the son of Omar Abaaoud, who emigrated to Belgium from Morocco in 1975. Omar Abaaoud's first employment after emigration was in mining, before he was employed as a shopkeeper.

look like an improvement to this version:

He was the son of Omar Abaaoud, whose first employment upon emigration to Belgium was within mining, later employed as a shopkeeper, he emigrated to Belgium from Morocco in 1975.

Do you think it is necessary to remove the lines from this, for the link to function ? > Weapons_of_the_Prophet_Muhammad#al-Battar|al-Battar

Is this the correct text-source relationship?:

(the al-Battar Battalion

instead of this?:

(the al-Battar Battalion

Does this edit summary 04:47, 23 November 2015‎ 75.80.175.107 (talk)‎ . . (22,090 bytes) (+52)‎ . . (Fixing.) correctly describe this change, in which the editor removed legitimate content?:

Abaaoud is reported to have joined a group within ISIS known as al-Battar Katiba, (the al-Battar Battalion ) while fighting was against Bashar al-Assad, during 2013.

Abaaoud is reported to have joined a group within ISIS known as al-Battar Katiba while fighting against Bashar al-Assad during 2013.

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Bunching of citations (article: Muhammad

Yes it is a problem: WP:INTEGRITY. It makes it imposssible to tell which citation is supporting which statement and, even, misleads into appearing all citations support the entirety of the paragraph. You are doing something which is contrary to how the vast majority of articles are set up and how most experienced editors edit, and is just wrong. I suggest you don't do it again. DeCausa (talk) 16:35, 17 November 2015 (UTC)

I agree. The article isn't improved by introducing ambiguity by bunching the citations together. You don't know what will be contentious to any individual user, and we shouldn't make researchers hunt through the article history to figure out what citation belongs on which sentence. The relationship of citations to content should be clear and unambiguous. ~Amatulić (talk) 00:55, 18 November 2015 (UTC)

---

Does this answer your question(s)?

If the edits made by 75.80.175.107 were so very vital, do you think you might have made similar changes yourself, instead of complaining to me, when you might just have as quickly as possible improved the article instead of expecting indications of why I reverted?

Antrangelos (talk) 18:05, 24 November 2015 (UTC)

1. Yes, the latter version is ungrammatical, due to serial comma.
2. Not necessary for the link to function, but preferred everywhere on Wikipedia. Underscores shouldn't be used in links.
3. I have no opinion.
4. I don't understand the question.
5. I was never talking about that 04:47 edit, but apart from the small detail you mention, that edit also improved a few references.
6. No, I could not have "as quickly as possible improved the article instead of expecting indications of why I reverted", because you and others made intervening edits in the middle, so I couldn't simply revert, and since the work was actually quite "major", it wouldn't be quick or easy to redo it.

On the other hand, I note edits from you like this one, which are actively damaging references (by making original source titles appear in English when they were actually in French, which should not be done, as it is a misrepresentation of the source). I have seen other suboptimal edits from you (and your alter ego, as I assume User:Aikiangelos is still you?), so instead of reverting mostly useful edits, why don't you relent a little on your own appropriation of this article? LjL (talk) 18:31, 24 November 2015 (UTC)

@LjL: et al.: Fyi, User:Aikiangelos and User:Antrangelos have both been blocked indefinitely as sockpuppets. Mathglot (talk) 23:48, 2 January 2016 (UTC)

References for "Undoing major citation tidying-up"

Thalys attack

Was Abaaoud responsible for the Thalys train attack, as the article claims? Please discuss at Talk:2015 Thalys train attack#Possible involvement of Abaaoud in Thalys attack.
Mathglot (talk) 03:32, 30 December 2015 (UTC)

Abaaoud not the mastermind after all

See "French authorities say they have identified the commander of the Nov. 13 Islamist militant attacks on Paris and know that Abdelhamid Abaaoud, cornered and killed days later by police, played a lesser role."TheTimesAreAChanging (talk) 03:23, 16 July 2016 (UTC)

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