Talk:2021 Hialeah shooting

Title

The nightclub is not within Hialeah's city limits; it's in unincorporated Miami-Dade. MDPD is handling the investigation instead of Hialeah PD. Can we just rename the article to "El Mula Banquet Hall Shooting"? Emigdioofmiami (talk) 16:36, 30 May 2021 (UTC)

Sources differ as to the location, but the shooting is unlikely to be known by the name you suggest. Jim Michael (talk) 17:14, 30 May 2021 (UTC)

• @Emigdioofmiami:, I agree that the name you suggest shouldn't be used, but you are on to something. Both AP News[1] & Reuters[2], (Pretty much known to be the top 2 most neutral/reliable sources), are using terms like "concert" or "banquet hall" instead of "Hialeah".

I suggest we have a vote to keep "2021 Hialeah shooting", use "Florida concert shooting", or use "Florida banquet hall shooting". (Curtesy pings of active people: @Jim Michael:, @Jax 0677:, @Leaky.Solar:, @Emigdioofmiami:, @John B123:, & @Rusty5231B:. Elijahandskip (talk) 18:34, 30 May 2021 (UTC)

• Option 2 - Florida concert shooting since it seems better to use that as it was a shooting at a concert crowd not in Hialeah. Elijahandskip (talk) 18:34, 30 May 2021 (UTC)

I lean more towards this since I've even seen sources that ID the hall as a billards hall/club. Leaky.Solar (talk) 18:39, 30 May 2021 (UTC)

Florida is too large an area for the title. Jim Michael (talk) 18:41, 30 May 2021 (UTC)

I just noticed that the article is now a part of my t-ban (Governor involved now). I am no longer allowed to communicate or edit this article. Would someone mind to take control of the discussion? Thanks, (Notice to let people know). Elijahandskip (talk) 18:48, 30 May 2021 (UTC)

• Comment - I just started a discussion here, so that anyone who views the page will know about the discussion. --Jax 0677 (talk) 18:58, 30 May 2021 (UTC)

Requested move 30 May 2021

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: no consensus, with the split !votes (many of which aren't arguing for keeping the current title, nor the one mentioned in the RM, but for a different title altogether), and multiple valid arguments, no clear consensus will come from this discussion. Feel free to nominate with a different suggested name, which could probably generate a clearer discussion and more support. (closed by non-admin page mover) Elli (talk | contribs) 12:32, 7 June 2021 (UTC)

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2021 Hialeah shooting → 2021 Miami-Dade County shooting – The shooting took place outside of Hialeah. Jax 0677 (talk) 18:55, 30 May 2021 (UTC)

• Support per nom. Love of Corey (talk) 19:26, 30 May 2021 (UTC)
• Support. Also, MDPD is doing the investigation instead of Hialeah PD Emigdioofmiami (talk) 21:29, 30 May 2021 (UTC)
• Support per nomination, Love of Corey and Emigdioofmiami. —Roman Spinner (talk • contribs) 00:25, 31 May 2021 (UTC)
• Oppose. I could not find one reliable source that calls the event Miami-Dade County shooting. The common name is Florida banquet hall shooting. [3][4][5][6][7][8][9][10][11][12][13][14][15][16][17] and many more. WWGB (talk) 02:40, 31 May 2021 (UTC)

• Reply - I am open to any and all suggestions. --Jax 0677 (talk) 03:30, 31 May 2021 (UTC)

"Florida" is too broad of a term to use, though. Love of Corey (talk) 04:02, 31 May 2021 (UTC)

WP:COMMONNAME doesn't care about that. WWGB (talk) 05:57, 31 May 2021 (UTC)

Neither do articles like Sutherland Springs church shooting, apparently. Love of Corey (talk) 00:04, 1 June 2021 (UTC)

• Oppose "2021 Miami-Dade County shooting", support "2021 Florida banquet hall shooting" per WWGB. Rublov (talk) 18:06, 31 May 2021 (UTC)
• Support a rename to 2021 Miami-Dade County shooting as none of the 11 sources currently cited say the incident was in Hialeah. They describe the location as "near Hialeah" and sometimes "northwest Miami-Dade County, near Hialeah."

As the shooting was outside the event venue I don't think we should use "Florida banquet hall shooting" in the article title.

List of mass shootings in the United States in 2021 lists five shootings so far for "Miami."

• Miami(1) was in Little River Park in Northwest Miami-Dade county. (0 killed, 8 injured at a basketball court)
• Miami(2) was in the city of Miami. (0 killed, 4 injured outside a nightclub)
• Miami(3) was in Brownsville northwest of Miami just outside of Miami city limits. (0 killed, 4 injured outside an apartment complex )
• Miami(4) was in Miami-Dade county / northwest Miami (Miami-Dade police responded) (0 killed, 5 injured at a residence)
• Miami(5) was in the Wynwood area of the city of Miami. (1 killed, 6 injured on the street. The news article does not say if this was associated with an event or venue)

I suspect this one should be Miami(6). --Marc Kupper|talk 20:03, 31 May 2021 (UTC)

They're all in the Miami metropolitan area, but this one isn't within the city of Miami, so this article shouldn't be named May 2021 Miami shooting. Jim Michael (talk) 10:58, 1 June 2021 (UTC)

• Oppose The shooting occurred in Hialeah then it should be called the 2021 Hialeah shooting similarly to the 2013 Hialeah shooting. Yousef Raz (talk) 21:26, 1 June 2021 (UTC)

Do you have sources that say the shooting actually occurred in Hialeah? Love of Corey (talk) 23:01, 1 June 2021 (UTC)

@Love of Corey * BBC : https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-57321371 The shooting occurred early on Sunday, in Hialeah, a city north of Miami.

• CBS News: https://www.cbsnews.com/news/miami-dade-mass-shooting-concert-gunmen-public-help/ Miami-Dade police officers collect evidence after a mass shooting outside a banquet hall that had been rented out for a concert on May 30, 2021, in Hialeah, Florida.
• tax records for that location: https://miamidade.county-taxes.com/public/search/property_tax?search_query=7630+NW+186
• Zipcodes.com https://www.zip-codes.com/zip-code/33015/zip-code-33015.asp Yousef Raz (talk) 23:43, 1 June 2021 (UTC)

That's four sources, of which two are WP:SECONDARY. Meanwhile, there's at least 17 secondary sources calling the location by other names, none of which involve Hialeah. Love of Corey (talk) 23:48, 1 June 2021 (UTC)

@Love of Corey Here's another "in Hialeah" https://www.orlandosentinel.com/news/florida/fl-ne-mass-shooting-rap-miami-20210530-4hxcacsejvdbrcxnyl3qa66xny-story.html Five sources say it happened in Hialeah, every other source I've seen states "near Hialeah" or "Hialeah area" or they use Hialeah as the reporting location. Is there a source that states it happened in a different town? My first choice is to keep the title, my second choice is 2021 Florida banquet hall shooting. Yousef Raz (talk) 00:13, 2 June 2021 (UTC)

"Florida" is too broad of a term to use, though. Love of Corey (talk) 03:32, 2 June 2021 (UTC)

The official address of the banquet hall is 7630 NW 186TH ST, HIALEAH, FL 33015 [18], so what is wrong with the current title? WWGB (talk) 03:44, 2 June 2021 (UTC)

I agree with WWGB. If the US Postal Service says zip code 33015 is Hialeah [19], the tax records say its Hialeah than its good enough for Wikipedia. The current title is the best option. I don't agree that 2021 Florida banquet hall shooting is broad because there is a low likelihood that article title that would conflict with another title as opposed to 2021 Miami-Dade County shooting. Another option could be El Mula Banquet Hall shooting.Yousef Raz (talk) 04:09, 2 June 2021 (UTC)

Here is a page from Hialeah's official website detailing the city maps. Notice how the banquet hall where the shooting happened is not within the red lines of the city limits. Now, does this answer everyone's question? http://www.hialeahfl.gov/511/Search-MapsEmigdioofmiami (talk) 13:59, 2 June 2021 (UTC)

I don't see how "2021 Miami-Dade County shooting" would conflict with another title either. Not a lot of shootings happen in the county itself from what I've heard. Love of Corey (talk) 18:33, 2 June 2021 (UTC)

• Oppose Although the ZIP-Code boundaries and city limits are not the same, the event's promotional flyer from Instagram uses the Hialeah address and this is how the location is known to the public. https://www.instagram.com/p/CPYh12vH7gO/?utm_source=ig_web_copy_link Rusty5231B (talk) 15:18, 2 June 2021 (UTC)

Like you're going to rely on faulty street addresses. Let's look at this objectively: I've proven that the shooting happened outside city limits, the Miami-Dade Police Department is conducting the investigation instead of Hialeah PD, and Miami-Dade Mayor Levin-Cava gave a press conference about it instead of Hialeah Mayor Hernandez. End of story.Emigdioofmiami (talk) 18:02, 2 June 2021 (UTC)

Emigdioofmiami, maybe so, but the 2017 Las Vegas shooting didn't take place within the city limits of Las Vegas, either, so even if you are correct it doesn't necessarily mean the article should be renamed. Rublov (talk) 18:11, 2 June 2021 (UTC)

But does anyone even know the difference between Vegas and Paradise? Miami-Dade County is more known than Hialeah. what more proof do you need; wait to see if campaign posters for this year's mayoral election pop up in the area? Hialeah PD doesn't even patrol there. Also, I checked Google, the area is listed as "Country Club", a census designated place and an unincorporated area of Miami-Dade.Emigdioofmiami (talk) 18:21, 2 June 2021 (UTC)

Maybe its not in the city of Hialeah but the location is pretty close to the point that virtually every article either refers to the location as "in Hialeah", "near Hialeah", or "Hialeah area". The US Postal service states that zip code is Hialeah, the location's owners advertise the location as Hialeah. The title as is is fine with me, there's plenty of sources to support it, and this how the incident is commonly known. El Mula Banquet Hall shooting is possibly a better title that is specific and factual.

Oppose - 2021 Miami-Dade County shooting because during 2021 there have been 16 mass shootings in Florida and 5 in Miami. We're less than half-way through the year. Its plausible that another shooting will happen in Miami-Dade county that will be notable enough to get its own article creating a conflict. Miami-Dade is a county of 2M+ people, seems like a vague title. Maybe 2021 Miami-Dade County banquet shooting Yousef Raz (talk) 19:36, 2 June 2021 (UTC)

In that case, I'd support removing the year from the suggested title, because it's the only notable shooting to occur at a banquet in that area. Love of Corey (talk) 21:14, 2 June 2021 (UTC)

Why not El Mula Banquet Hall shooting?Yousef Raz (talk) 22:03, 2 June 2021 (UTC)

As others have said, the shooting didn't occur at the hall itself, but rather outside. Love of Corey (talk) 23:32, 2 June 2021 (UTC)

The shooting occurred as people were on a line to enter to establishment. That doesn't qualify as at the hall?Yousef Raz (talk) 01:13, 3 June 2021 (UTC)

Apparently not. Love of Corey (talk) 04:00, 3 June 2021 (UTC)

There is one user that stated since the incident occurred outside of the establishment then it shouldn't be named for the location. I don't agree that one user. The victims were in a queue attempting to enter the establishment. This has them clearly connected to the location and event. If they were in the parking lot for a reason other than to attend the event then I'd be more likely to agree.Yousef Raz (talk) 05:14, 3 June 2021 (UTC)

Just following their lead. Love of Corey (talk) 02:03, 4 June 2021 (UTC)

• Oppose, Miami Dade County shooting is way to vague. I'm privy to 2021 El Mula Banquet Hall shooting. Curbon7 (talk) 22:02, 3 June 2021 (UTC)
• Comment - If "2021 Miami-Dade County shooting" is too vague, we can use "May 2021 Miami-Dade County shooting" or "May 30, 2021 Miami-Dade County shooting". --Jax 0677 (talk) 20:16, 4 June 2021 (UTC)

Those names would be more specific. Which is accurate and sounds more concise "El Mula Banquet Hall shooting" or "May 2021 Miami-Dade County shooting"? I primarily support no name change, the current name is fine.Yousef Raz (talk) 22:24, 4 June 2021 (UTC)

How do people who live in the area describe it? Hialeah? Near Hialeah? Unincorporated Miami-Dade County? Jim Michael (talk) 16:39, 5 June 2021 (UTC)

Here are other businesses I could find in the 7600 block of NW 186TH ST

• Partylandia Jumpers Rentals, 7606 NW 186th St, Hialeah, FL 33015
• Luli Pools, 7600 NW 186th Street Hialeah, FL 33015
• Bakery 186, 7606 NW 186th St., Hialeah, FL 33015
• Ming Village, 7624 NW 186th St, Hialeah, FL 33015

They are all happy to be in Hialeah! WWGB (talk) 06:44, 6 June 2021 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Requested move 8 June 2021

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: no consensus. One oppose, no further participation despite the RM having been open for nearly a month. (closed by non-admin page mover) Lennart97 (talk) 19:41, 3 July 2021 (UTC)

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2021 Hialeah shooting → El Mula Banquet Hall shooting – Considering the closure of the last WP:RM discussion, the suggested title seems to have been a popular alternative and I can get behind that. Love of Corey (talk) 06:31, 8 June 2021 (UTC) —Relisting. Natg 19 (talk) 21:14, 18 June 2021 (UTC)

• Oppose - Hialeah is more well known than El Mula Banquet Hall. --Jax 0677 (talk) 12:43, 8 June 2021 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.