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Talk:2019 Venezuelan presidential crisis

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Next to summarizeEdit

After summarizing Censorship and media control during the Venezuelan presidential crisis to a sub-article, we are still at 8,500 words of readable prose, per WP:SIZERULE. It doesn't have to happen just yet, but I suggest the next section to summarize to a sub-article should be defections, here. Any ideas for article name, when we get to that? SandyGeorgia (Talk) 12:41, 29 March 2019 (UTC)

I just realized that the sanctions section is also quite lengthy. I want to remind that there's an article in the Spanish Wikipdia named Sanctions during the Venezuelan crisis [es], which in turn was based in the article List of people sanctioned during the Ukrainian crisis, and includes individual sanctions that date back to 2008. On the other hand, for the defections content I'd suggest a name like Venezuelan crisis defection, with a similar structure to Eastern Bloc emigration and defection. Unlike the Censorship article, there doesn't seem to be an existing page covering this topic, so it would make a good opportunity to cover the events before 2019. --Jamez42 (talk) 16:34, 29 March 2019 (UTC)
Thanks, Jamez42; when size starts creeping up again, I'll check in with the idea of whether we would be better to spin off Sanctions before Defections. Best, SandyGeorgia (Talk) 17:19, 29 March 2019 (UTC)
Thank you, let me know if you need any help :) --Jamez42 (talk) 17:19, 29 March 2019 (UTC)

SanctionsEdit

I am starting to work in Sandbox on a sanctions article. We have two WHOLLY UNCITED lists at:

What the heck? All that work, and not a single citation to back them up, so not usable. So, I will start over I guess. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 14:33, 2 April 2019 (UTC)

As the creator of the article, the lists are sourced; it's only that the references are not included as a column in the list, and rather they are a synthesis of the paragraphs above. There are discussions regarding the individuals in the respective talk page. --Jamez42 (talk) 14:35, 2 April 2019 (UTC)
I have been working all day, and finding errors. Both of the lists above appear to have used a list from Marco Rubio of people he said *should* be sanctioned, but were not. There are dozens of names on those lists for which I can locate no source except Marco Rubio's wish list. So, I have pretty much started over.

It makes no sense at all to put up a page that amounts to a serious BLP issue with no sources !!!! Those pages need to be scrubbed.

Also, there are no sources on either talk page. I don't mean the text, Jamez, which is fine: I mean the lists of people sanctioned-- the text was in very good shape, but the list is a mish-mash mess. It would be easier to deal with if the names had been standardized so they could be alphabetized.

I am working at User:SandyGeorgia/sandbox2. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 09:56, 3 April 2019 (UTC)

@SandyGeorgia: I just saw your sandbox, amazing work! What can we help with? --MaoGo (talk) 11:28, 3 April 2019 (UTC)
I think I may try to sleep now :) I still have to finish Canada, but there are a couple dozen names on the two other lists for which I can find no sources. I will make a list of them tomorrow! Then, when I move it in to mainspace, there will be a lot of work for all! For now, I have to keep track of what I have done and what I have left to do, so after I get caught up, I will put out a list of help that is needed! Saludos, SandyGeorgia (Talk)
I didn't know that some of the names in the list had that trouble. I will also have to take a look at the Spanish version. It's important to note that the article is kinda outdated with the 2019 sanctions. Best wishes! --Jamez42 (talk) 13:02, 3 April 2019 (UTC)
@Jamez42:, yes ... just getting the article to a state where I can put it up has been a MUCH larger task than I envisioned. When I finish getting through the sources that are there, there is still work to be done! Once I get all the sources in, I will put up a list of the people sanctioned that I can't source ... will let you know. Then I will ask for help, too :) SandyGeorgia (Talk) 16:38, 3 April 2019 (UTC)
  • International sanctions during the Venezuelan crisis. That was a haul, and I ran out of steam. There are good sources in the Non-US section that can be used for expansion, and there is a list at User talk:SandyGeorgia/sandbox2. When I started in to that, I didn't realize how much work was needed, so you will all see places where I just got exhausted and gave up, but there is info in the sources for expansion. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 02:19, 4 April 2019 (UTC)
    @SandyGeorgia: amazing work! bravo. --MaoGo (talk) 07:04, 4 April 2019 (UTC)
    Thank you, MaoGo, most appreciated. I think that was the most dejecting project I have every undertaken on Wikipedia :( No fun, just unpleasant work, and I went through Every Single Entry at the US Treasury website to build that damn chart from scratch; unpleasant reading to say the least ! SandyGeorgia (Talk) 15:24, 4 April 2019 (UTC)

Cabinet reviewEdit

So ... what ever happened with Maduro's famous plan to restructure his entire cabinet? SandyGeorgia (Talk) 20:03, 29 March 2019 (UTC)

Nothing I have seen. Either it has not taken place or was just a meaningless announcement during a crisis. What happened to the Russian wheat and aid? --MaoGo (talk) 21:03, 29 March 2019 (UTC)
Has Guaido appointed his cabinet yet? TFD (talk) 03:56, 30 March 2019 (UTC)
I have seen nothing else on that front since his announcement. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 13:21, 30 March 2019 (UTC)

Red Cross updateEdit

@SandyGeorgia: time for the Red Cross update? Reuters Washington Post The Guardian--MaoGo (talk) 22:47, 29 March 2019 (UTC)

I have had a hard time keeping up ... been accompanying my sister-in-law (cuñada) in hospital all week. Home in a few hours. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 23:26, 29 March 2019 (UTC)
@SandyGeorgia: take your time, health and family first. --MaoGo (talk) 23:37, 29 March 2019 (UTC)
@MaoGo and Jamez42:; ok, here's my idea. For now, we have promises from the Red Cross, and lots of back-and-forth charges and claims, about aid that may be delivered in April. And we have 2019 shipping of humanitarian aid to Venezuela#Foreign aid over in the other article. What if we develop the whole Red Cross International thing over there (since the article is pushing size limits anyway), and then summarize it back to here with a few sentences, along with whatever else happens in April? I can see it as being somewhat tangential to the actual presidential crisis, so we may as well fully develop the content in the humanitarian aid sub-article ... let me know what you think. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 01:25, 30 March 2019 (UTC)
@SandyGeorgia: Please take care, Sandy. Sounds like a good idea, I was thinking that starting the section "Aftermath" would be appropriate for the recent events. --Jamez42 (talk) 09:02, 30 March 2019 (UTC)
@SandyGeorgia: Good idea. --MaoGo (talk) 11:16, 30 March 2019 (UTC)
OK, I think I can work on this today, as she has to stay another day in hospital. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 13:21, 30 March 2019 (UTC)

@Jamez42 and MaoGo: I will work on updating Red Cross to the shipping-humanitarian article over the course of the day; if I am interrupted by medical, will resume, but I may not get all done in one sitting. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 14:46, 30 March 2019 (UTC)

@SandyGeorgia:Let us know if you need any help; please don't overwhelm yourself. --Jamez42 (talk) 18:34, 30 March 2019 (UTC)
Thanks, Jamez42; I am done as much as I can be on putting Red Cross into the shipping article now. I am not sure what else I may have fallen behind on. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 18:37, 30 March 2019 (UTC)
PS, @Jamez42 and MaoGo:, I have just come across LatinoBarometro, which one source says is highly respected. There is info there that needs to go into many different articles, and is more than I can take on right now, in case either of you want to work on that. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 18:44, 30 March 2019 (UTC)

Russian mitigation actEdit

This is not law until/unless the Senate passes it; I submit it should be added to the article only if it is passed and signed, and then the text will change and it will be sourced to something better than Wasserman Schultz herself. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 13:20, 31 March 2019 (UTC)

References

  1. ^ "Wasserman Schultz's Russia-Venezuelan Threat Mitigation Act Passes House". Congresswoman Debbie Wasserman Schultz. 26 March 2019. Retrieved 2019-03-27.
  2. ^ Schultz, Debbie (28 February 2019). "H.R.1477- 116th Congress (2019-2020): To require a threat assessment and strategy to counter Russian influence in Venezuela, an assessment of foreign acquisition of CITGO assets in the United States, and for other purposes". www.congress.gov. Retrieved 2019-03-26.
I was tempted to submit this to WP:AFD, but asked first at the Law WikiProject. My concern is that this "act" is not a thing until/unless it is passed by the Senate, and since it asks for nothing the US government isn't already doing anyway, it seems unlikely that it would ever become law, and it's not clear to me if the article should exist. I understand that Florida Democrats have reason to want to have press time, and it concerns me that most of this article is sourced to the congresswoman who introduced the unnecessary bill. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 23:16, 1 April 2019 (UTC)
I think it depends how much traction and news it gets. It's not one of the more important Bills to go through the House, though. Kingsif (talk) 23:42, 1 April 2019 (UTC)

I think it's just a matter of time before it is passed as law. It'll surly have bipartisan support in congress. It should be included in the article as everyone needs as much information possible as regards this topic Plugstuck (talk) 12:00, 16 April 2019 (UTC)

Nothing happening yet; [1] it would not be unusual for the House to pass a bill for the sake of publicity, and so far, all the publicity is coming from the Democrats who sponsored the bill and stand to benefit from it at Florida polls. As of now, it's barely notable. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 13:52, 16 April 2019 (UTC)

Telegram updatesEdit

If anyone here uses Telegram and speaks Spanish, I would like to suggest several news channels that I use to keep myself informed of the situation:

  • @laceiba: (t.me/laceiba) My personal favorite and the one I've been reading for the longest. It is managed by former mayor Ramón Muchacho, and gives a list of the day before headlines, along with a brief analysis at the end.
  • @efectococuyo: (t.me/efectococuyo) Official Telegram channel of the outlet. It doesn't always make announces daily, but it also offers a link to their respective news articles.
  • @runrunes: (t.me/runrunes) Official Telegram channel. of the outlet. If often shares photographs, infographics, and audios. It's the channel that updates more often, more than I like, but it's very detailed and updated.
  • @queestapasando: (t.me/queestapasando) Offers a briefing a couple of times daily, along with images and sources used.
  • @jguaidom: (t.me/jguaidom) Guaidó's official Telegram channel. Useful for being updated with rallies, speeches and announcements.

There are probably more, but I think those are the most important. Having so much info on the Internet, I think it was important sharing these outlets to any who might be interested. Best wishes :) --Jamez42 (talk) 17:47, 1 April 2019 (UTC)

The internet here doesn't like Telegram, but it would be nice if you could keep us updated Kingsif (talk) 20:57, 1 April 2019 (UTC)
I'm not entirely sure what Telegram is, but I follow dozens of Instagram channels which I think keep me up to date; does Telegram offer something Instagram does not? SandyGeorgia (Talk) 21:06, 1 April 2019 (UTC)
Not in Telegram, but I could give it a try (but its Wikipedia article advices cautioness). Maybe I am the only one here that is just refreshing Reuters, El Nacional and the Guardian, it seems to me quick and reliable enough. Twitter is also a good developing story alarm. --MaoGo (talk) 22:24, 1 April 2019 (UTC)

Cut and pasteEdit

In preparing to add new text, I found cut-and-paste copyvio in this edit; need to check all edits from that editor. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 14:12, 10 April 2019 (UTC)

I see we noticed this back in March, and removed some, but I am finding more, that may have propagated to the Shipping article: to check. (Reminder: this is one of the reasons why, when copying text from article to another, you should always include a link to the original article in edit summary-- that way, if copyvio is found in the future, it can be traced back to where it occurred and not blamed on the editor who moved the text.) I will work more on this later; a slowdown in my plan to add the new gold and IMF reserves text. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 14:23, 10 April 2019 (UTC)
There was more, but most those edits were reverted or fixed when the copyvio was found in March. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 14:39, 10 April 2019 (UTC)

Source requestEdit

Hi @SandyGeorgia:, may you please provide a quote for the Financial Times and the IMF reserves of Venezuela from 2009. I cannot access it. --MaoGo (talk) 14:38, 11 April 2019 (UTC)

Will do; lost power, on my iPhone, remind me later if I forget. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 14:40, 11 April 2019 (UTC)
  Done MaoGo, is that what you need? That's my last free Bloomberg article this month, and I'm now out of Financial Times as well. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 15:17, 11 April 2019 (UTC)
@SandyGeorgia: thanks for the info. I am actually trying to keep the French article up to date and the information could come out handy. --MaoGo (talk) 15:30, 11 April 2019 (UTC)

BuzzfeedEdit

Not a source I would use, but:

And more from Malta:

  • [WATCH Russia hits back: ‘Solution of Malta government is not friendly’] SandyGeorgia (Talk) 16:51, 18 April 2019 (UTC)
@SandyGeorgia: I forgot this section was started before adding the information. This new has been published by other sources:
I decided to cite 2001 before the two last ones. I also understand that a Russian ambassador specified that Russia asked for permission to enter in the airspace, as it is customary. --Jamez42 (talk) 15:23, 20 April 2019 (UTC)
@Jamez42: the problem is that all of the sources I could find mentioning Malta were attributing the story to BuzzFeed, which is a very unreliable source. We need a high quality source to report it independently of Buzzfeed. It is interesting that no English language or high quality source has picked up this story. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 19:44, 20 April 2019 (UTC)
Ah, OK, I see now that El Nacional is giving us something to work with, not dependent on Buzzfeed; we could use that if we stick to that verified part. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 19:46, 20 April 2019 (UTC)
Precisely my thoughts, El Nacional refers to this ABC article, which is a major Spanish newspaper. --Jamez42 (talk) 19:48, 20 April 2019 (UTC)
Are we good now? SandyGeorgia (Talk) 19:59, 20 April 2019 (UTC)
Of course we are :) We can mark this as   Done --Jamez42 (talk) 20:05, 20 April 2019 (UTC)
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