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Talk:2012–13 Cypriot financial crisis

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There is another state on the islandEdit

I would kindly like to request the editors of this article to use, from time to time, the concerned state's name (RoC) instead of "Cyprus" to avoid giving a wrong impression to the reader that the whole of the island is having a financial crisis. AFAIK, the economy of Northern Cyprus (TRNC) may not be creating wonders but it is far from being "bankrupt" like the economy of the so-called "Republic of Cyprus", as confessed by its President several days ago. Thanks in advance. --E4024 (talk) 17:36, 17 December 2012 (UTC)

The official name of the Cypriot State (Republic of Cyprus) has been stated in the very first sentence of the article which outlines the general nature of the article, so I doubt that it will be confused with the de-facto state of the Turkish Republic of Northern Cyprus (TRNC). However, the TRNC is not considered a recognized state but an illegal occupying force of Turkey. There is no "so-called Republic of Cyprus", there is simply an official state, the Republic of Cyprus, and an illegal one. The RoC is referred to as the "Cypriot state" internationally, being a member of the United Nations and the European Union, and having legally the sovereignty over the whole island. There is no reason beyond political purposes to over-use the name "RoC" to refer the the Cypriot State as it is the only state to have the legal sovereignty over the whole geographical area we call Cyprus. As for the TRNC, it has had austerity imposed on it by Turkey for a long time now but that is another subject (and possibly another article).--Tco03displays (talk) 15:02, 18 December 2012 (UTC)
You have not been polite enough to respond to me; instead opened another thread to make some propaganda. If that makes you happy I am very happy for you. I will not act like you and respond here. Indeed I am one of the rare Turks -even if I put it within quotation marks or add "so called" before the name- to call the Greek political entity on Cyprus with the official name they have accepted (or usurped, I am not going to repeat a known story) simply because that bi-communal state has gone away half a century (can you believe how quick time passes) ago. Some still wait with a futile hope that a society that has resisted half a century against all odds will one day get bored and come to "their" terms. This is more than utopia... --E4024 (talk) 16:01, 18 December 2012 (UTC) P.D. I know that someone or the other will want to remove these lines but the truth does not change when you close eyes to it.
As far as I know, this is the place to discuss the controversial areas of an article and you open exactly that, a controversial topic. I can say that you are spreading propaganda too, but that is beyond the point. I did not have any intention to open up an ethnic debate with you, so please do not feel offended. I will consider your suggestion in future edits I may do. --Tco03displays (talk) 23:56, 18 December 2012 (UTC)
Thank you very much. --E4024 (talk) 10:15, 19 December 2012 (UTC)

"Austerity"Edit

Is it "austerity" simply to pay debts and limit spending to income? Is "austerity" a misnomer? (EnochBethany (talk) 18:30, 22 March 2013 (UTC))

Austerity simply means cutting back state expenditure in social programs (education, healthcare, social benefits etc) and raising taxation that affects the genera population (VAT for example). The causes that lead to the enforcement of austerity measures in a country (like the ones you mentioned) are irrelevant to the term. --Tco03displays (talk) 14:08, 26 March 2013 (UTC)
Austerity (latin austerus = sour, bitter; severe, rigid) as economic policy does not include raising taxes. To the contrary Austerity is often implemented to avoid raise of taxes, sometimes even to lower them. --Kharon (talk) 11:28, 27 March 2013 (UTC)
The Wikipedia entry of austerity which you cited actually clearly states in its second sentence that it "..can include spending cuts, tax increases, or a mixture of the two". --Tco03displays (talk) 18:08, 27 March 2013 (UTC)
Yes, reality is different because policy is often mixed. However the opposite of austerity is stimulus and you can stimulate economy with raising taxes but you cannot stimulate economy with cutting budget. So the only essential difference between stimulus and austerity policy is expanding or cutting budget. --Kharon (talk) 21:34, 27 March 2013 (UTC)
Not necessarily. Raising taxes could reduce aggregate demand and result in a fall in growth and thus employment, which is actually what the result has been in countries like Greece. It also depends on the type of the tax and its progressive or regressive character - revenue collected through VAT is often seen falling after a tax rise during a recession, as people simply generally buy less as a result of the rise in prices. Reducing the budget through acts such as privatizing nationalized industries could likewise open up competition and result in more employment and growth. Of course you could argue the opposite with other policy examples of taxation and budget reduction. So it really depends on the context in which a policy is proposed and implemented. --Tco03displays (talk) 07:06, 28 March 2013 (UTC)
Here is a bad place to discuss this. We should stop. --Kharon (talk) 08:24, 28 March 2013 (UTC)

Eurogroup dealEdit

I've found a source that says the European Central Bank warned against this deal.[1]. I think we should give a more detailed description of the measures put forward by the Eurogroup, which includes anti-money laundering.[2] John Vandenberg (chat) 19:48, 18 March 2013 (UTC)

Globalpost says "All Eurogroup ministers wanted the 100,000 euros to be untaxed," one Greek finance ministry official said. "Cyprus doesn't want to impose a large tax above 100,000 because the money will flow out. Two thirds of deposits are from abroad."
So, who actually proposed this levy on <100,000-euro savings accounts? Irish Examiner is asking the same question. What is certain is Eurogroup is requiring Cypriots to raise 5.8billion euro in order to receive 10billion euro, and their rescue package includes this 'once-off stability levy', but who came up with the "6.7% for deposits up to €100.000 and 9.9% for higher deposits" deal? John Vandenberg (chat) 02:47, 19 March 2013 (UTC)

Some sources suggest the Cypriot government or president didn't want to tax 100k holders 10% or higher out of fear they it would cause too much damage to the countries reputation as a offshore financier [3]. Nil Einne (talk) 19:19, 19 March 2013 (UTC)
Right. There is no "inability of the government" as the lead wrongly points out. It seems they try to get away without harming their "tax paradise" economic model. Its very similar to 2008–12 California budget crisis or republican Starve the beast strategy an ironclad refusal to raise taxes, nomatter what. --Kharon (talk) 14:03, 24 March 2013 (UTC)

giving Moscow plenty of leverage over the situationEdit

"giving Moscow plenty of leverage over the situation" this may be correct, but it's highly POV and the opinion of a Guardian writer. I've removed it. --IP98 (talk) 23:17, 18 March 2013 (UTC)

Requested moveEdit

The following discussion is an archived discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the move request was: Not moved. Jafeluv (talk) 15:50, 26 March 2013 (UTC)


– What other financial crises have these had? The full titles are overly long and unnecessary, as in evidence by the red links and redirects. Generally, when referring to financial crises in these countries, there is no scope for confusion. Other articles, such as European sovereign-debt crisis and Great Recession, do not use the years so why are the countries affected treated differently? 86.40.198.66 (talk) 23:25, 19 March 2013 (UTC)

I very much doubt that this is the kind of large scale long-term international event that would be completely forgotten in a decade's time - that would certainly attest of a very short memory. "1970s energy crisis" is a broader term that includes the year without any country - it could hardly be left at plain "energy crisis" which has its own article. Australia and Finland are not mentioned above. That's like suggesting the Libyan civil war should be at "2011 Libyan civil war" because it might get mixed up with the English Civil War or the Russian Civil War. --86.40.202.43 (talk) 14:37, 20 March 2013 (UTC)
I'd support these. We should be primarily serving our readers now, not those of 'a decade's time'. For today's readers, 'Irish financial crisis', 'Spanish financial crisis', etc, are the most obvious titles for these articles. Some of these countries have had other financial crises in the past, but those of the past five years are tremendously more important and relevant at this time. Robofish (talk) 01:48, 20 March 2013 (UTC)
I agree with Robofish. If there's more than one, have the main article be a disambiguation page. The year numbers just look wrong, implying that there are more than one of them. I seriously doubt Cyprus has ever had anything even vaguely like a financial crisis before, even during the World Wars. EJM86 (talk) 03:15, 20 March 2013 (UTC)
  • Economy of Cyprus appears to focus greatly on the current events. If there are other examples they could in all likelihood be featured on a hatnote. As for Turkish invasion of Cyprus, that is about an invasion - naturally, if you include events like wars, there would be some element of financial crisis. However, the current events (well, current as in years at this stage) appear to be the obvious articles using the title "financial crisis" in which the financial crisis is the main event. --86.40.202.43 (talk) 14:37, 20 March 2013 (UTC)
  • Strong oppose WP:RECENTISM, there have been many financial crises in most if not all of these countries. Remember the Great Depression ? The proposed names should be list articles on all the financial crises of these localities. -- 65.92.180.137 (talk) 00:16, 21 March 2013 (UTC)
  • Oppose. I keep wondering about the relabeling of Casino capitalism crisis in the last years. First its "financial sector crisis" then it suddenly labeled "country crisis" and in the end its labeled "sovereign-debt crisis". Its a chain of events in most cases of course but in the end we repeat the original cause, relabeling and repacking of obligations, as relabeling and repacking of information. Both strongly taste like fraud to me. --Kharon (talk) 05:19, 22 March 2013 (UTC)
  • Strongly Oppose. Cyprus has expirienced at least 2 economic crises before, one after the Turkish invasion in 1974 and another one in the 90s with the stock exchange bubble, not to mention the economic crises that happened in the TRNC. I created this page originally, and since I had knowledge of the above, I decided to put a year in the title. This is an open encyclopedia, and one day someone may open up previous crises and create articles for them (they are extremely important in the modern economic history of Cyprus). Including the year in the title for the current crisis will prevent confusion in the future. --Tco03displays (talk) 13:07, 23 March 2013 (UTC)
The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

Consequences subsection in Eurozone/IMF_dealEdit

I've added a consequences subsection to the Eurozone/IMF_deal section.

This new subsection needs expansion as the consequences of the proposed bank deposit levy have been significant.

The first sentence that I added to this section related to bitcoin, as it came to my attention when it was found to be highly correlated heavily reported in the media. Two users have now removed this sentence citing spam, however it is not spam per WP:WPSPAM.

Please expand upon the consequences subsection, but do not delete well-referenced verifiable content. Also please be mindful of WP:3RR.

Best regards, Djbaniel (talk) 08:30, 23 March 2013 (UTC)


Letter from Djbaniel to OsmanRF34Edit

Greetings OsmanRF34,

I noticed that you've deleted the consequences subsection in the Eurozone.2FIMF_deal section of 2012–2013 Cypriot financial crisis.

I created the consequences subsection for editors to write about various consequences of the Eurozone/IMF Cyprus deal (a subset of consequences (including public reactions) of the 2012–2013 Cypriot financial crisis as a whole).

I've only contributed one sentence to the new subsection, but there are many other consequences that deserve to be covered.

Would you care to discuss this matter? I've added a section on the talk page: Talk:2012–2013_Cypriot_financial_crisis#Consequences_subsection_in_Eurozone.2FIMF_deal

I notice you've been editing Wikipedia since (at least) May 3, 2012, so I trust that you're familiar with the various Wikipedia:Policies_and_guidelines, and that you know you are welcome to contribute to the continuous improvement of these policies.

I noticed you deleted my writing describing substantial increased interest in bitcoin as it relates to the Eurozone/IMF Cyprus deal, citing "spam" and "rmv bitcoin alusion. No serious source." However it is not spam per WP:WPSPAM and please define what you mean by "serious source" as it pertains to WP:V. (Sources of my sentence now include Forbes, ABC News, Businessweek, Bloomberg, etc.)

Also I trust you are familiar with WP:3RR and WP:EW to prevent us from falling into the trap of non-productive reverts without discussion.

I look forward to finding a way to work with you in building a better 2012–2013 Cypriot financial crisis article.

Best regards, Djbaniel (talk) 20:18, 25 March 2013 (UTC)

OK, I see that according to Wikipedia's rules, that's not spam, nor completely inappropriate. However, I still doubt that when something happens to the bitcoin (like an increase in its exchange rate) in the wake of a defining financial event, we would need to include it in the respective article. Bitcoin is still a niche artificial currency, with little trading. It can not be bought at any exchange house that I know. Therefore, its rate fluctuate by even a little bit of trading, in the same way that the price of a penny stock which sees little trading. Just imagine if we would have to write a corresponding section to everything that has fluctuated after the Cyprus' mess (bank stocks, stock exchanges, etc). And after some weeks, we would have to review this, since those fluctuations aren't necessarily relevant with the pass of time. So, unless the Cyprus crisis was indeed a turning point to the bitcoin, and unless it was noticed by many, then I maintain that no mention should be included in the relevant article. OsmanRF34 (talk) 17:59, 26 March 2013 (UTC)

Northern CyprusEdit

Is this affecting Northern Cyprus & if so, how so?108.201.220.243 (talk) 11:07, 24 March 2013 (UTC)

Northern Cyprus is occupied territory by Turkey who are not member of EU. Even if it was affected, Turkey would most likely fix this very fast. --Kharon (talk) 13:40, 24 March 2013 (UTC)
Possibly a fall in demand from consumers from the Republic of Cyprus (RoC) will affect the TRNC's economy. As to Turkey fixing everything up, Turkey has actually been imposing austerity measures in TRNC for a long time now and long before the collapse of the RoC, although they have pretty much succeeded presenting it as anything but austerity. Wikipedia really lacks such information on the TRNC. --Tco03displays (talk) 14:13, 26 March 2013 (UTC)

Agreement on bailout termsEdit

NYT is reporting that the terms have been agreed upon[4], including Laiki Bank being wound down and depositors losing money[5], but apparently not as part of a tax, so presumably the bank itself will be removing money from the balance sheets of depositors, and probably only depositors with more than 100,000 Euro due to deposit insurance. John Vandenberg (chat) 03:07, 25 March 2013 (UTC)

I can confirm the claim, the eurozone and Cyprus have agreed to a bail out of 10 billion, and a restructuring of the countrys two banks.Cyprus secures international bailout, avoids bankruptcy, but large bank depositors face lossesCyprus Secures Bailout, Avoids BankruptcyNrpf22pr (talk) 03:25, 25 March 2013 (UTC)
so, it's three weeks on, and we probably need to update the article to reflect the two different bailout deals. I think that whole section could do with a rework, but I actually think it should happen in a separate article, with only a short summary and a "main article" link onwards. I see some risk of that discussion unbalancing the main article, since it's fascinating for people like me, but probably dull as hell for the general readership.
Comments? Richardbourke (talk) 11:16, 14 April 2013 (UTC)

"haircut"Edit

This jaunty euphemism (for a one-time tax, yes?) of pop journalism should be confined to a single parenthetical aside: ("haircut").--Wetman (talk) 17:36, 25 March 2013 (UTC)

Agreed, it's jargon like so much finance jargon, most readers without a finance background will miss. EllenCT (talk) 19:58, 25 March 2013 (UTC)
Has no connection with taxation. Its a deal between debtor and creditor to prevent the state of Insolvency. That can include offers that "cannot be refused". --Kharon (talk) 23:36, 25 March 2013 (UTC)

Haircut is a phrase that journalists use for impression688dim (talk) 19:52, 7 April 2013 (UTC)

Suggest "interim agreement" and more clarity on which one of the 2 bailouts the criticisms refer toEdit

Comments on the following please, before I do anything about them:

  • The reference to an "agreement" in november 2012 looks incorrect to me. It cites Central Bank Head Demetriades suggesting that the deal was agreed. Not so, I'm afraid

here's an IMF press release on it from the time

The Christofias Administration then started referring to "interim agreement".

This is important to note, because that unilateral announcement was in fact prompted by a bank run on Laiki (Cyprus Popular Bank). See here: Operation bailout: the dramatic backstage scenes

ok, added link to IMF press release. Unfortunately, this has knock-on effects on the content. The following sentences refer to "bailout terms". My position would be, the burst of legislative activity in November/December was based on an interim draft memorandum. (Must try and find it - I saw it at famagusta gazette I think). So I propose changing "bailout terms" to "interim bailout terms".Richardbourke (talk) 09:36, 13 April 2013 (UTC)
changed "bailout" to "preliminary agreement in the following sentence Richardbourke (talk) 11:17, 14 April 2013 (UTC)
  • Some more detail on the property bubble putting all cypriot banks under pressure due to non-performing loans, and perhaps the expansion of Laiki (then called Marfin Popular Bank) into Greece in 2010 might be helpful. The bank was getting its credit-rating downgraded well before greek PSI was agreed.
  • The section on criticism I think needs to be clearer about which one of the two bailout deals the criticism refers too, since they were pretty different.

Richardbourke (talk) 15:15, 10 April 2013 (UTC)

I think I generally agree with all of this, and am looking forward to the actual edits. EllenCT (talk) 00:26, 11 April 2013 (UTC)
  • The criticism in that section is directed toward the haircut of the deposits specifically, and it should be stated. After all the major criticism IS the haircut of the deposits, or the bail-in plan as it is sometimes called. Austerity measures have been passed in Cyprus since 2012 and the section of the "Public reactions in Cyprus" documents mainly the public opposition to them. I know of no major criticism on those measures within the mainstream EU political scene, concerning their application to Cyprus. --Tco03displays (talk) 12:31, 11 April 2013 (UTC)
ok, thanks to you both, starting editing now. I may dig up some extra links to criticism that distinguished between haircutting insured depositors (1st/rejected bailout deal: extremely bad) and haircutting uninsured depositors (2nd bailout deal: also bad, but in the circumstances understandable). I've seen plenty of pieces making this distinction, so it is probably going to be easy).
oh yeah, one other thing. The logic of the edits I'm going to be making pushes the timeline back to at least 2010. So further down the line, I may be requesting a rename/move. But step-by-step. Not yet.

Richardbourke (talk) 19:25, 11 April 2013 (UTC)

historical statistics on cyprus property prices, non-performing loansEdit

As I mentioned before, I think a short section with statistics on

  • the development of property prices since 2009
  • the effect this had on the banks' solvency

would help in the contexts section. Finding good statistics is pretty hard, and its entirely possible I've missed stuff (not being able to read greek doesn't help either).

So far: this is what I've got, in order of decreasing usefulness :

  • Rics Cyprus Property Price Index showing drops of 15% to 30% depending on sector since 2009
  • Cyprus Statistics Service, construction section. No end price information, not useful in this case]
  • On what effects that has on the banks. I've come up with nothing at all at the Central Bank site. I was specifically looking for something tracking mortgage arrears (ireland's central bank, (50% price drop since 2009) has that statistic very prominently. Nothing on it in Cyprus though.
  • Non-Performing Loans (NPL)statistics. Nothing found in cyprus, however: Bank nonperforming loans to total gross loans (%) (world bank) Has cyprus at 6.1% in 2011. For comparison with other countries with a banking crisis: ireland: 9.2%, iceland 38.8%, greece 11.5% (and it's up to about 15% now i think).

To be blunt, I don't believe that statistic for cyprus (the spanish one is complete nonsense too). And I seem to recall there was tension back late last year over a Troika demand that cyprus started using international standard definitions for non-performing loans. Letter from the Association of Cyprus Banks complaining about that, and so on. Obviously, the higher the percentage of NPL, the higher the necessary recapitalisation, the higher the end bailout figures.

Comments? My plan is just a two-line section, indicating a 30% (commercial), 26% (residential) fall in prices from 2009 (cite rics property index). I'll quote the world-bank NPL figure and dig up a citation that cyprus currently has a non-standard definition of non-performing loans. (my plan would be to cite this one with our pants down (leaf research). A very clear and (to me, convincing) explanation of why the association of cypriot banks really, really wanted to hold to their own definition of NPL. Richardbourke (talk) 15:42, 13 April 2013 (UTC)

ok, done. Anyone finding better statistics, feel free to change the citation please (estimates of peak-to-trough price fall seem to vary a lot from source to source and perhaps a note here? I've left out anything about the argument about the definition of non-performing loans. It's interesting to me, but I suspect dull and technical for the general readership.
found another link on cypriot npl defintion. Oh. my. God. "These amounted to €19.5 billion or 26.5% of bank loans and €3.4 billion or 32.3% of Coop loans". And they were lobbying to keep the definition right to the end! While negotiating with the IMF for a bank recap!! This amounts to a banking sector with a collective death-wish, and a political establishment that is even more reality-resistant than I thought they were. And everyone in the banking sector would have known what those statistics meant, too. And not one politican spoke out against it, as far as I know, just waffled about the specific nature of cypriot society not allowing foreclosure on mortgages!. Very clear instance of "State Capture" Richardbourke (talk) 07:58, 15 April 2013 (UTC)
Richardbourke (talk) 10:33, 14 April 2013 (UTC)

Housekeeping: Dead Links to Cyprus Mail articlesEdit

Hi, we have a range of dead links on the article, mostly (I haven't checked them all) to Cyprus Mail, which seems to remove its articles after six months or so. Given that this paper is one of the *very few* sources in english for this subject (even if its very biased against President Christofias and Central Bank Head Demetriades), I propose we take action as per the guidelinesagainst this Link rot

If anybody knows where those articles go permanently, after being moved, so that they can be safely cited, please do speak up. If not, I think either web-archiving services (not yet tried) or use of quoting in the Cite Web Template — Preceding unsigned comment added by Richardbourke (talkcontribs) 08:16, 14 April 2013 (UTC)

We could create references to the newspaper issues. The online articles are also printed in the newspaper issue of the same date as the article was written on. --Tco03displays (talk) 09:11, 15 April 2013 (UTC)
I've fixed most of the Cyprus Mail articles except one. I linked the references to the appropriate pages in the Internet Archive.--Tco03displays (talk) 13:27, 14 December 2013 (UTC)

LinksEdit

>> Cyprus approves privatisation bill (Lihaas (talk) 15:53, 4 March 2014 (UTC)).

Fake links?Edit

The links regarding the Russian loan were fake. One was about Greece, the second was not a link to The Guardian newspaper but to Athens News and a page that did not exist. Politis (talk) 17:53, 7 April 2015 (UTC)

I've restored the content you deleted. Please don't remove content (or links) based on your assumption that they are 'fakes' because they've suffered from WP:LINKROT. "Do not delete cited information solely because the URL to the source does not work any longer. WP:Verifiability does not require that all information be supported by a working link, nor does it require the source to be published online." As it stands, the second link is active, but behind a WP:PAYWALL. The second link I've left as a dead link, but have searched out other sources with the same information. Thank you for your attention. --Iryna Harpy (talk) 10:12, 8 April 2015 (UTC)

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