Talk:2004 UEFA Champions League final
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Edited the piece on Jose Mourinho to go to furthest possible date until he can lead a team to another champions league final.
Monaco's Flag edit
It shows a French flag. While this is accurate insofar as Monaco played and plays in the French football system, it's incorrect as Monaco isn't based in France. To me, this would be like Swansea or Cardiff reaching the Champions League Final, and showing an English flag rather than a Welsh flag. I think it should show a Monegasque flag. MAINEiac4434 (talk) 02:06, 27 May 2013 (UTC)
- If Swansea or Cardiff qualified for the Champions League through their position in the Premier League, they would show an English flag as they would be representing England in the competition, not Wales. Monaco qualified for the CL as representatives of France, so they show a French flag. Your analogy is flawed. – PeeJay 11:05, 27 May 2013 (UTC)
- That is incorrect. It is a common misunderstanding that clubs represent countries in European Club competitions. They do not. They represent Football Associations. They UEFA coefficient ranking is ranking of the different member associations in accordance to their performance in the different European Club competitions (i.e. UEFA Champions League and UEFA Europa League). Their place in the ranking determines how many and with kind of European club competition berths each FA receives. Because the FA's rather than countries send their representatives to the European club competitions, it's possible for teams not based within a country's borders to represent the FA based in that same country. There are multiple examples op this throughout in Europe: Welsh teams playing in the English leagues/cups, Sanmarinese teams playing in the Italian leagues/cups, FC Andorra playing in the Spanish leagues, Liechtenstein playing in the Swiss Leagues and of course AS Monaco playing in the French leagues/cups. AS Monaco do no play in their own domestic league since there is none. In fact, the Monegasque FA is not even a member of the UEFA. The correct status of AS Monaco is that they are a Monegasque club representing the French FA. The information given in this article that they are a French club is completely incorrect !
- I agree with this. Swansea and Cardiff are not English clubs, they are Welsh clubs that play in England because they were founded before the Welsh FA was founded. Ditto with Monaco. Like, for example, if Catalonia were to secede from Spain, FC Barcelona and Espanyol would probably still play in La Liga, because they were founded well before the Catalan FA was recognized by UEFA. If they went to the Champions League final, they may be representing the Spanish FA, but they would most certainly be Catalan clubs. To me, placing a French flag beneath the name of a team that plays in a totally different country than France, despite being part of the FFF, is erroneous and misleading the reader. Same thing for the Welsh-based English teams.MAINEiac4434 (talk) 22:47, 27 May 2013 (UTC)
- That is utter rubbish. Cardiff and Swansea play in the English leagues because it is more financially beneficial for them to do so. Furthermore, both clubs were founded well after the founding of the Football Association of Wales. Nevertheless, both teams are affiliated to the FAW and normally could not qualify for European competitions via English tournaments; however, UEFA capitulated and decided to allow Cardiff and Swansea to do so, but only as representatives of England. As for AS Monaco, FC Andorra, FC Vaduz and the like, the same situation applies – it is more financially viable for them to compete in larger leagues (or there is no local league for them to participate in). As the user earlier said, clubs in the Champions League do not represent countries but football associations – most of the time these are the same, but in odd cases they are not; this is one of those cases, and in this case, AS Monaco was representing France and therefore should have a French flag. – PeeJay 00:11, 28 May 2013 (UTC)
- Do you not see how that could confuse the reader though? MAINEiac4434 (talk) 00:20, 28 May 2013 (UTC)
- What I see is that the full explanation of why a Monaco-based club is representing France in international competitions would be too long-winded to add to an article that is supposed to be just about the 2004 Champions League final. By all means add the info to the AS Monaco FC page, but if we have to go through the same palaver every time one of these anomalous teams comes up, we will end up repeating ourselves far more than is actually necessary if we are to assume that our readers are even the slightest bit intelligent. – PeeJay 00:38, 28 May 2013 (UTC)
- Okay, you convinced me. Carry on. MAINEiac4434 (talk) 00:58, 28 May 2013 (UTC)
- I can accept the concensus about which flag to show for AS Monaco. There is still a mistake in your arguments, however. AS Monaco do not represent France but the French FA (FFF) and the Welsh (6 in total, not only Cardiff and Swansea !) clubs who compete in the English leagues and English cups do not represent England but the English FA . That is an important difference ! The article is still incorrect, though. At two different spots in the article AS Monaco is said to be a French club. They are not! They aren't a Monaco-based club representing France either. They are a Monegasque club representing the French FA. It's not because they are a member of the French FA that they automatically are a French Club. It should be corrected in the article. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Tvx1 (talk • contribs) 20:10, 29 May 2013 (UTC)
- I really think you are splitting hairs here. In the context of the article, representing the FFF is tantamount to representing France, and to go into too much detail about the specifics of Monaco's situation is to introduce unnecessary confusion to the article. The average user probably doesn't give a shit whether AS Monaco is a Monegasque club playing in the French league, a French club playing in the Champions League or even if (facetiously) they were actually based in Outer Mongolia; all that matters is that AS Monaco was touted in contemporary media as a French club playing in the Champions League final. – PeeJay 02:48, 30 May 2013 (UTC)
- Apparently you are not familiar with the goal of an encyclopedia. It's to give the reader, whether or no he really cares, correct information. That the average reader doesn't give a shit does not authorize telling lies in an encyclopedia. Stating that AS Monaco is a French Club is a lie. And your argument that it is going to much into detail doesn't hold up. We're talking about two sentences containing a handful of words. The detailed situation of AS Monaco is still only explained on the AS Monaco page and not here. Maybe this will convince you: [|AS Monaco]
- I don't know why you're still banging on about this. The last two edits you've made to the article have been to make slight changes that actually have nothing to do with the edit summaries you wrote. You wrote "Monegasque-based", which is really bad grammar; you can't be based in "Monegasque", but you can be based in Monaco, hence why I changed it to "Monaco-based". You also linked to [[French Football Federation|French Football Federation]], which I changed to [[French Football Federation]]. How can you have a problem with those two changes that necessitates you reverting me? Or were you just spoiling for an argument? – PeeJay 14:00, 2 June 2013 (UTC)
- I didn't write Monegasque-based, which is indeed incorrect, but Monegasque. If someone changed it to Monegasque-based that was not me. If someone changed it to Monegasque-based that was not me. How exactly the link to the page for French Football Federation is provided doesn't really matter to me as long as it is there.Tvx1 (talk) 15:20, 2 June 2013 (UTC)
- I don't know why you're still banging on about this. The last two edits you've made to the article have been to make slight changes that actually have nothing to do with the edit summaries you wrote. You wrote "Monegasque-based", which is really bad grammar; you can't be based in "Monegasque", but you can be based in Monaco, hence why I changed it to "Monaco-based". You also linked to [[French Football Federation|French Football Federation]], which I changed to [[French Football Federation]]. How can you have a problem with those two changes that necessitates you reverting me? Or were you just spoiling for an argument? – PeeJay 14:00, 2 June 2013 (UTC)
- Apparently you are not familiar with the goal of an encyclopedia. It's to give the reader, whether or no he really cares, correct information. That the average reader doesn't give a shit does not authorize telling lies in an encyclopedia. Stating that AS Monaco is a French Club is a lie. And your argument that it is going to much into detail doesn't hold up. We're talking about two sentences containing a handful of words. The detailed situation of AS Monaco is still only explained on the AS Monaco page and not here. Maybe this will convince you: [|AS Monaco]
- I really think you are splitting hairs here. In the context of the article, representing the FFF is tantamount to representing France, and to go into too much detail about the specifics of Monaco's situation is to introduce unnecessary confusion to the article. The average user probably doesn't give a shit whether AS Monaco is a Monegasque club playing in the French league, a French club playing in the Champions League or even if (facetiously) they were actually based in Outer Mongolia; all that matters is that AS Monaco was touted in contemporary media as a French club playing in the Champions League final. – PeeJay 02:48, 30 May 2013 (UTC)
- I can accept the concensus about which flag to show for AS Monaco. There is still a mistake in your arguments, however. AS Monaco do not represent France but the French FA (FFF) and the Welsh (6 in total, not only Cardiff and Swansea !) clubs who compete in the English leagues and English cups do not represent England but the English FA . That is an important difference ! The article is still incorrect, though. At two different spots in the article AS Monaco is said to be a French club. They are not! They aren't a Monaco-based club representing France either. They are a Monegasque club representing the French FA. It's not because they are a member of the French FA that they automatically are a French Club. It should be corrected in the article. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Tvx1 (talk • contribs) 20:10, 29 May 2013 (UTC)
- Okay, you convinced me. Carry on. MAINEiac4434 (talk) 00:58, 28 May 2013 (UTC)
- What I see is that the full explanation of why a Monaco-based club is representing France in international competitions would be too long-winded to add to an article that is supposed to be just about the 2004 Champions League final. By all means add the info to the AS Monaco FC page, but if we have to go through the same palaver every time one of these anomalous teams comes up, we will end up repeating ourselves far more than is actually necessary if we are to assume that our readers are even the slightest bit intelligent. – PeeJay 00:38, 28 May 2013 (UTC)
- Do you not see how that could confuse the reader though? MAINEiac4434 (talk) 00:20, 28 May 2013 (UTC)
- That is utter rubbish. Cardiff and Swansea play in the English leagues because it is more financially beneficial for them to do so. Furthermore, both clubs were founded well after the founding of the Football Association of Wales. Nevertheless, both teams are affiliated to the FAW and normally could not qualify for European competitions via English tournaments; however, UEFA capitulated and decided to allow Cardiff and Swansea to do so, but only as representatives of England. As for AS Monaco, FC Andorra, FC Vaduz and the like, the same situation applies – it is more financially viable for them to compete in larger leagues (or there is no local league for them to participate in). As the user earlier said, clubs in the Champions League do not represent countries but football associations – most of the time these are the same, but in odd cases they are not; this is one of those cases, and in this case, AS Monaco was representing France and therefore should have a French flag. – PeeJay 00:11, 28 May 2013 (UTC)
- I agree with this. Swansea and Cardiff are not English clubs, they are Welsh clubs that play in England because they were founded before the Welsh FA was founded. Ditto with Monaco. Like, for example, if Catalonia were to secede from Spain, FC Barcelona and Espanyol would probably still play in La Liga, because they were founded well before the Catalan FA was recognized by UEFA. If they went to the Champions League final, they may be representing the Spanish FA, but they would most certainly be Catalan clubs. To me, placing a French flag beneath the name of a team that plays in a totally different country than France, despite being part of the FFF, is erroneous and misleading the reader. Same thing for the Welsh-based English teams.MAINEiac4434 (talk) 22:47, 27 May 2013 (UTC)
- That is incorrect. It is a common misunderstanding that clubs represent countries in European Club competitions. They do not. They represent Football Associations. They UEFA coefficient ranking is ranking of the different member associations in accordance to their performance in the different European Club competitions (i.e. UEFA Champions League and UEFA Europa League). Their place in the ranking determines how many and with kind of European club competition berths each FA receives. Because the FA's rather than countries send their representatives to the European club competitions, it's possible for teams not based within a country's borders to represent the FA based in that same country. There are multiple examples op this throughout in Europe: Welsh teams playing in the English leagues/cups, Sanmarinese teams playing in the Italian leagues/cups, FC Andorra playing in the Spanish leagues, Liechtenstein playing in the Swiss Leagues and of course AS Monaco playing in the French leagues/cups. AS Monaco do no play in their own domestic league since there is none. In fact, the Monegasque FA is not even a member of the UEFA. The correct status of AS Monaco is that they are a Monegasque club representing the French FA. The information given in this article that they are a French club is completely incorrect !
You do realise that clubs can't actually have a nationality, don't you? Calling an inanimate object "Monegasque" is a misnomer. – PeeJay 20:58, 15 June 2013 (UTC)
Move discussion in progress edit
There is a move discussion in progress on Talk:1993 UEFA Champions League Final which affects this page. Please participate on that page and not in this talk page section. Thank you. —RMCD bot 02:02, 22 December 2022 (UTC)