Talk:1941 Odessa massacre

Message

To the original author of this article: It is a sad fact that Wikipedia articles don't quote their sources, especially when they deal with controversial political events. It goes without saying that the Romanians who will read this article will be skeptical about it and will doubt of its truth. (Many people in Romania consider Antonescu as a national hero and are reluctant to admit any Romanian responsibility for the Holocaust). I am ready to admit that they are not guilty for this, they just lack knowledge.

This article says "General Ion Antonescu ordered from Bucharest that for every killed Romanian and German officer, 200 Jews and Communists were to be killed, and for every soldier, 100 were to be executed. All the Communists were to be imprisoned and one person was to be taken hostage from every Jewish family".

My question is: if this is a historically undisputable fact, why is not the order issued by Antonescu scanned and put on the internet, so that no one should doubt about the atrocities ordered by Antonescu? I think that there is such an order, written on a piece of paper which was preserved after the fall of Antonescu regime and was probably used at his trial against him. If it could be made available to any person interested, then it would be impossible for any person with a minimal moral conscience to consider Antonescu as a positive hero.

So: (1) is there such a document written/signed by Antonescu? (2) can it be scanned and made available online?

And - obviously - if there is not such a document, what is the evidence for the claim made in the Wikipedia article? laurian —Preceding unsigned comment added by 84.109.154.227 (talk • contribs)

restoring traditional title

Please do not move articles to controversial names without consensus. I did not see a discussion regarding the move to Odessa Holocaust, therefore I am restoring the long-standing name. If there are going to be other articles named Odessa massacre, then we could discuss WP:DISAMBIG. Perhaps Odessa massacre (Holocaust) or some such would be appropriate, but I dislike parentheses in titles. ←Humus sapiens ^ну? 03:27, 15 July 2007 (UTC)

Odessa Holocaust

Hi! There is nothing too wrong in titling Odessa massacre, but the very name of event historically is reffered to the masssacre that occured in Odessa in 1905 [1]. So, it could be more correct to call the extermination of Jews traditionaly a Holocaust to avoid any misunderstanding of the title. Truly, Paganel 18:14, 18 July 2007 (UTC)

As in other similar cases in WP, I think it would be proper to reserve the title Odessa massacre for the most famous/infamous one and have WP:REDIRECTs and WP:DISAMBIGUATIONs for other tragedies that scholarly sources may refer to as "Odessa massacre". Perhaps the best name for this one would be Odessa massacre (Holocaust) or Odessa massacre (1941). In general, The Holocaust (Ha-Shoah) is a common name for the genocide of European Jews, therefore I don't think Odessa Holocaust is an encyclopedic title. Right now it is a redirect to Odessa massacre. Thanks. ←Humus sapiens ^ну? 20:53, 18 July 2007 (UTC)

Right You are. But it can be called Holocaust in Odessa, like Holocaust in Poland, Holocaust in Romania, Holocaust in Estonia. But the word Holocaust must be present, firstly, to avoid double meaning (The Odessa Massacre of 1905). And it really was a Holocaust and not an abstract massacre! So, the "Odessa massacre (Holocaust)", proposed by You, or "Odessa Holocaust Massacre" or, as it was, "Odessa Holocaust" or "Holocaust in Odessa" would be a nice title for the redirection, because this word must be present. What is your opinion? Very often I pass along the mass graves of it, and I know that a massacre is something caotic, but in Odessa it was not like this, it was a very well organized process of extermination, a Holocaust. Truly, Paganel 22:14, 18 July 2007 (UTC)

Let's continue the discussion here. I am copying the above from our talk pages over here and requesting more opinions from Talk:The Holocaust. ←Humus sapiens ^ну? 22:37, 18 July 2007 (UTC)

I thought Holocaust in X series is for countries/regions, such as Poland, Romania, Estonia. Do we have any Holocaust in X city? If other editors are OK with the title Holocaust in Odessa, then I'm OK too. ←Humus sapiens ^ну? 22:50, 18 July 2007 (UTC)

Why not, if it`s more exact. Birchgrove 16:05, 27 July 2007 (UTC)

I don't think Odessa Holocaust is an encyclopedic title. Can you show what scholarly sources refer to it as such? Holocaust in Odessa is a little bit better. Regarding "chaotic", are you sure you are not mixing up "massacre" with "pogrom"? Massacre most commonly refers to individual events of deliberate and direct mass killing where the victims have no reasonable means of defense and pose no immediate physical threat to the assailants.

I think 1941 Odessa massacre is more precise title for this article, so I have moved it to that title. Eventually Odessa massacre should be a WP:DISAMBIG. ←Humus sapiens ^ну? 21:45, 27 July 2007 (UTC)

The number of victims

There seems to be a certain uncertainty regarding the number of victims. Richard J. Evans in his ″The Third Reich at War, 1939-1945″ Penguin Books 2008, p. 232 says: "...Romanian troops took this as a license to launch a pogrom. Over the next two day, 417 Jews and alleged Communists were hanged or shot, and some 30.000 Jews were rounded up and force-marched out of the city to the town of Dalnic. But then, on the intervention of the mayor of Odessa, they were marched back to the city harbour. Here 19.000 of them were herded into four large sheds, where they were all machine-gunned. After this, the sheds were set on fire to ensure there were no survivors." In a footnote he gives "Deletant, Hitler's Forgotten Ally, p. 171-3 as the source and adds, "with accurate details and figures based on Romanian and German documents (other accounts seem to involve an element of double-counting)". On the other hand, Donald E. Thomas Jr. in an article about the Holocaust (http://www.pbs.org/thewar/detail_5231.htm) says:" In reprisal, Romanian army units massacred 19,000 Jews and locked another 20,000 in warehouses in a nearby village, which were then set on fire and machine-gunned." Now, which is to be believed?--Mycomp (talk) 11:45, 11 October 2010 (UTC)

Debate over numbers

I have seen this article being edited by people who just copy paste from propaganda books unsubstantiated by any materials and who concentrate on Sci-Fi scenarios (such as the 19,000 burned alive). I would advise you to please read a bit more history before advancing numbers. Many innocent victims were killed in Odessa but leaving aside post war soviet propaganda if we are to consult the actual evidence and the testimonies of survivors these are quite not what some people advance here.

Thank you. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 141.85.0.125 (talk) 19:08, 4 May 2011 (UTC)

There is no debate other than between you and the reliable sources. Now do stop vandalizing the article. Dahn (talk) 19:18, 4 May 2011 (UTC)

Dead link

During several automated bot runs the following external link was found to be unavailable. Please check if the link is in fact down and fix or remove it in that case!

• http://www.ushmm.org/research/center/presentations/programs/presentations/2005-03-10/pdf/english/chapter_05.pdf
  • In Iaşi on 2011-04-24 07:19:08, 404 Not Found
  • In 1941 Odessa massacre on 2011-05-25 03:16:31, 404 Not Found
  • In 1941 Odessa massacre on 2011-06-04 16:16:46, 404 Not Found

The link to the village of Dalnik under the subheading "The beginning of the Holocaust" actually links to a page on motorcycles and needs to be fixed. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 199.116.168.39 (talk) 15:56, 13 August 2019 (UTC)

--JeffGBot (talk) 16:17, 4 June 2011 (UTC)

massacre 1905

Odessa Jewish Massacre 1905 - New York Times headline

here's the headline of an article i found in the new york times, 1905. maybe you want to use it here or in Odessa. greetings from de.wikipedia.org, Maximilian (talk) 16:52, 26 January 2013 (UTC)

Please see Odessa pogroms. Dahn (talk) 16:14, 29 January 2013 (UTC)

massacre 2014

What about the 2014 Odessa Massacre? 82.169.103.207 (talk) 21:54, 30 January 2015 (UTC)

War crimes trial?

Were any of these Romanian generals put on trial after WWII? I realize that Romania switched sides to the Allies once they were invaded by the Soviets but it seems like this is such a massive war crime that there would be some accountability after the war. 69.125.134.86 (talk) 14:08, 3 July 2013 (UTC)

Yes, I believe two were executed by the Soviets/Romanian Communists after the war. The Garrison Commander at Odessa was originally sentenced to death as well but had his sentence commuted to life imprisonment instead. 185.45.52.143 (talk) 08:44, 13 October 2022 (UTC)

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These numbers

These numbers are all unsubstantiated. As if they were pulled out of thin air. Disgraceful. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.102.108.226 (talk) 04:13, 22 March 2017 (UTC)

Coverers … … are punishable by death?

On a mainly grammatical note "Coverers, as well as persons who know about this and do not report, are punishable by death." is wrong. The punishable crime(s) would be 'covering' and 'failing to report' , (although 'covering' is not a standard English term in this context and its meaning is not clear. Does it mean those hiding Jews?). Alternatively "Coverers, as well as persons who know about this and do not report, will be/are liable to be punished' with death, OR will be/are liable to suffer the death penalty.". There are other possibilities but my inability to read the source and not knowing the language prevents me from coming up with a grammatically correct translation with the right 'tone' and accuracy. The people committing the punishable 'crimes' are not the crimes themselves.

Less serious is "will be punished with the death penalty", it would be more natural to say "will be punished with death" or "will suffer/be subjected to the death penalty". The punishment is death, 'death penalty' is the name for that punishment. Present text has the feel of a possible literal translation and is a bit 'clunky'. Pincrete (talk) 11:13, 22 December 2021 (UTC)

German Colonists

Regarding the line that refers to 'German Colonists' having been participants in the massacre I wonder if this term is strictly accurate. By the time of the second world war the German speaking settlements had been in existence for almost 150 years. So more accurately they would be German speaking Ukrainians, or ethnic German Ukrainians. Should we therefore refer to them as such? Reading around I know that there were purges by Russia and Ukraine of their German speaking populations both before and and after both world wars, and there may well have been a historic desire to delegitimise their right to be called Ukrainians or Russians by referring to them as colonists. That being said in most other countries a group that had been present for over a century would not be considered colonists but citizens of the country they were born and raised in. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 185.45.52.142 (talk) 09:03, 13 October 2022 (UTC)

Renaming to Odesa

Following the recent changes in Odesa page, it makes sense to correct the spelling of Odesa throughout this article. 00:54, 16 November 2022 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by Internetyev (talk • contribs)

Crimes against humanity category removal

Crimes against humanity is a specific legal concept. In order to be included in the category, the event (s) must have been prosecuted as a crime against humanity, or at a bare minimum be described as such by most reliable sources. Most of the articles that were formerly in this category did not mention crimes against humanity at all, and the inclusion of the category was purely original research. MediaWiki message delivery (talk) 07:49, 14 February 2024 (UTC)