Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Severe weather
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Latest comment: 4 days ago by ChessEric in topic Description of random radar images and loops as "public domain"
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State of the monthly lists (updated) edit
Reposting and updating since the previous one was archived. wxtrackercody (talk · contributions) 03:41, 18 January 2023 (UTC)
Extended content
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United States
No lists from 2001 to 2006, excluding outbreak articles.
No lists from 1991 to 1999, excluding outbreak articles.
No lists from 1984 to 1989, excluding outbreak articles.
No lists from 1974 to 1981, excluding outbreak articles.
No lists from 1955 to 1972, excluding outbreak articles.
No lists for 1953, excluding outbreak articles.
No lists from 1947 to 1949, excluding outbreak articles. Canada No lists for 2024, excluding outbreak articles.
No lists from 1946 to 2022, excluding outbreak articles and the List of Canadian tornadoes and tornado outbreaks and its sub articles. Europe
No list for 2023.
No lists from 2015 to 2021, excluding outbreak articles.
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@Wxtrackercody, ChessEric, and Mjeims: I think these lists could all use good lead sections to provide a sort of summary of the month/months instead of just the one or two liners we usually have. A 2008 list doesn't even have any lead. I'm currently working on 2011, so I will try to write good sections for those lists. United States Man (talk) 04:47, 30 January 2023 (UTC)
- @United States Man: Gladly. But what do you mean by a "lead"? All articles listed here have a short description describing that the article lists the list of tornadoes in a certain kind of month/multiple month period. I guess I understand for the older years, like the 1950's, where a yearly description could be useful, but in the others, other than reformatting to omit the "Ref" column, I don't know what else can be done. Mjeims (talk) 13:10, 30 January 2023 (UTC)
- @Mjeims: United States Man is not talking about the short description template; he's talking about making a lead that describes the events that occurred in the months that list article includes. For example, the format I use modern list articles is to say what the page is, put the average number of tornadoes for each given month, describe the tornado activity for the given months, and mention whether or not it was above or below average. It will be tough to do these for the years prior to the 1990s (which is the cutoff we use when it comes to the most accurate number of tornadoes), but I think it can be done. ChessEric (talk · contribs) 14:48, 30 January 2023 (UTC)
There is currently a large tornado outbreak underway in the US, specifically Kentucky, Tennessee, Ohio, Indiana, Iowa, Kansas, Missouri, West Virginia, Wyoming, Montana +others. Feel free to help, as it is impossible for one person to document the entire thing. Most of it is going to happen later tonight, so information is going to rapidly come in, so by tomorrow there will be a lot more info to build on. Thanks! :D MemeGod ._. (talk) 16:52, 2 April 2024 (UTC)
Changes to Portal:Tornadoes edit
The recent outbreaks section at Portal:Tornadoes has been changed into a section featuring the tornado content of the current year and will automatically transclude from a list of specified articles. This should make it easier to update since only links need to be added. This change has been made in part since this portal section has not been maintained since the MfD. Noah, AATalk 13:55, 2 May 2024 (UTC)
Description of random radar images and loops as "public domain" edit
I noticed first, on the article for the recent tornadoes, and now, on the "2024 Sulphur tornado" article, random radar loops have been described as public domain simply by virtue of using PD data. I don't think this is accurate. In the former case, the loop was pulled from a random person on Twitter. Just because someone made a loop in Python or whatever using NEXRAD data doesn't automatically make it free/PD. In the latter case, a screenshot from RadarScope was reused. Is there anything indicating that radar images made using that software are free to reuse? Obviously they are permitted to be posted on social media and the like by users owning the app, but that doesn't automatically equal public domain. Master of Time (talk) 16:44, 2 May 2024 (UTC)
- There was a discussion on the Wikimedia Commons regarding it (actually a deletion discussion) and data/screenshots from NEXRAD are indeed considered public domain, as long as icons that are copyrighted are not present. I.e. like on RadarScope/Radar Omega, some storm chasers have livestream icons, if those are not present, they are considered public domain. Both GR2/3 products, RadarScope & RadarOmega have free-to-use map backgrounds + the public-domain radar data products + public-domain warning polygons. That is at least what Wikimedia Commons decided. Deletion requests/File:Alexander City Tornado Emergency in 2023.jpg was that discussion. That is also why the Wikimedia Commons has a whole category filled with NEXRAD radar images: Commons Category:Weather radar images. In short, if no storm-chaser icons (due to individual copyrights) are present, the data is considered automatically public domain under PD-USGov-NEXRAD. The Weather Event Writer (Talk Page) 01:00, 3 May 2024 (UTC)
- A comment and direct statement from an administrator on the Wikimedia Commons in that discussion: “
The data is clearly PD. While the software which was used to present it is copyrighted, the only human involvement is by the uploader…It is well established the output of a computer does not itself have a copyright unless it is derived from a copyrighted work.
” The Weather Event Writer (Talk Page) 01:02, 3 May 2024 (UTC)- That administrator doesn't have unilateral authority on this issue. But anyway, let's neglect the RadarScope case, to start. You can't just say that because the data is PD, something you found from a random meteorologist on Twitter (who had to script said loop) is in the public domain. It's not made by some downloadable software, it's something they had to code. Saying it is public domain implies they have literally no rights over it (including the right to attribution), just because it uses a free data source. Master of Time (talk) 14:57, 3 May 2024 (UTC)
- Per the Wikimedia Commons, NEXRAD radar loops & all NEXRAD-related images are public domain. They made something using public domain data and even watermarked it with “NOAA” at the top. You are arguing something watermarked with the U.S. government isn’t public domain. The debates have already all been decided on the Commons. And you are right, an admin cannot “unilaterally” say something like that…However, that deletion discussion was a community consensus with even another highly-experienced Commons editor besides myself and the administrator commenting on it. In short — Anything NEXRAD related is in the public domain unless some aspect of the image/screenshot is directly copyrighted (chaser icon or something else along those lines). Anyone can make a radar loop, in fact RadarScope/RadarOmega/GR products can all make radar loops. Why should one radar loop (again, attribution watermarked with “NOAA”) be an exception to the U.S. government public domain rule? The Weather Event Writer (Talk Page) 15:11, 3 May 2024 (UTC)
- P.S. — Are you sure you want to open this can of worms? Any NEXRAD deletion means total NEXRAD deletion, including all radar images from every Wikipedia page (tornadoes, hurricanes, ect…). The Commons already decided they are public domain, so, at least in my mind, the topic was already formally decided in that deletion discussion. The Weather Event Writer (Talk Page) 15:13, 3 May 2024 (UTC)
- Per the Wikimedia Commons, NEXRAD radar loops & all NEXRAD-related images are public domain. They made something using public domain data and even watermarked it with “NOAA” at the top. You are arguing something watermarked with the U.S. government isn’t public domain. The debates have already all been decided on the Commons. And you are right, an admin cannot “unilaterally” say something like that…However, that deletion discussion was a community consensus with even another highly-experienced Commons editor besides myself and the administrator commenting on it. In short — Anything NEXRAD related is in the public domain unless some aspect of the image/screenshot is directly copyrighted (chaser icon or something else along those lines). Anyone can make a radar loop, in fact RadarScope/RadarOmega/GR products can all make radar loops. Why should one radar loop (again, attribution watermarked with “NOAA”) be an exception to the U.S. government public domain rule? The Weather Event Writer (Talk Page) 15:11, 3 May 2024 (UTC)
- (edit conflict) And I'll add on that your implication that something being in the public domain means all derivations must therefore be in the public domain isn't right. It wouldn't be PD if there were license restrictions. That's what PD is – no restrictions. The closest you could get would be maybe a Creative Commons license requiring that all derivations use the same license. A discussion involving three Wikimedia Commons users on a single file isn't the same as "Wikimedia Commons decided..." And my argument isn't to try to remove all radar images from Wikipedia or whatever you implied. Other than the aforementioned individual with the radar loop, I feel that RadarScope in particular just seems questionable considering they sell licenses which require annual payment. Master of Time (talk) 15:17, 3 May 2024 (UTC)
- Again, why is one NEXRAD radar loop not public domain while every other NEXRAD radar loop is? Saying there is a problem with one means problem with all, therefore, removal of NEXRAD from Wikipedia. That is the can of worms. The Weather Event Writer (Talk Page) 15:19, 3 May 2024 (UTC)
- That administrator doesn't have unilateral authority on this issue. But anyway, let's neglect the RadarScope case, to start. You can't just say that because the data is PD, something you found from a random meteorologist on Twitter (who had to script said loop) is in the public domain. It's not made by some downloadable software, it's something they had to code. Saying it is public domain implies they have literally no rights over it (including the right to attribution), just because it uses a free data source. Master of Time (talk) 14:57, 3 May 2024 (UTC)
- A comment and direct statement from an administrator on the Wikimedia Commons in that discussion: “
- I would prefer some clarity on the copyright status of the use non-free commercial software to display public domain data. I'm a little wary of the use of, for instance, screenshots of US$250 software long-term, and a single brief deletion discussion doesn't inspire much policy confidence on that front. NEXRAD data itself is free, but I wonder if visualization of it using non-free software is questionable in much the same vein as there being limits to publishing a screenshot of Windows Notepad with the text of The Tale of Beowulf. There are alternatives, like the NOAA Weather and Climate Toolkit, that visualize NEXRAD radar data without the worry of using non-free software. —TheAustinMan(Talk ⬩ Edits) 16:46, 3 May 2024 (UTC)
- Wikimedia already had that discussion as linked/quoted above by an administrator, interpreting Wikimedia policy. Just saying, the debate is closed. If you have an issue, please bring it up at the Commons, not here, as Wikipedia doesn’t dictate what is/isn’t public domain images.
- I will say, if any NEXRAD images are declared to be not free-to-use, I will immediately remove any NEXRAD images from all Wikipedia articles as they all would not be free-to-use at that moment in time. Right now, the consensus on the Commons is NEXRAD screenshots, no matter what, are free-to-use. I don’t think y’all actually understand what an overturn to that consensus means. Literally, Wikipedia uses hundreds to probably over a thousand radar images, because Wikimedia Commons declared NEXRAD info to be automatically public domain/free-to-use. If that changes, every radar image would be removed from Wikipedia, as NEXRAD would no longer be a valid reason for inclusion. Almost every derecho-article has a NEXRAD image, aka every derecho article loses it. Most hurricanes (even Hurricane Ian) have radar images. Those would be gone. Every tornado radar image. Like, we can go down this road if we want, but I’m just saying the Commons already decided it…so we either would reaffirm NEXRAD is 100% public domain or overturn that free-to-use consensus and remove hundreds to thousands of radar images from Wikipedia (a near-complete wipe of Commons:Category:Weather radar images types. The Weather Event Writer (Talk Page) 17:10, 3 May 2024 (UTC)
- @TheAustinMan: — An administrator on the Wikimedia Commons directly stated it was free-to-use and public domain:
The data is clearly PD. While the software which was used to present it is copyrighted, the only human involvement is by the uploader…It is well established the output of a computer does not itself have a copyright unless it is derived from a copyrighted work.
- Annotated comment (by me): “The [NEXRAD data] is clearly [public domain]. While the software which was used to present it is copyrighted [GR2/3, RadarScope, RadarOmega], the only human involvement is by the uploader…It is well established [by several non-radar image discussions on the Wikimedia Commons] the output of a computer does not itself have a copyright unless it is derived from a copyrighted work.” Aka, NEXRAD data is clearly not copyrighted, therefore, derivations of it (all those softwares) cannot actually copyright the data, unless a physical human created the derivation. That does not happen as the data is relayed directly from the NEXRAD radar site to the software, with no human intervention in between. The Weather Event Writer (Talk Page) 17:16, 3 May 2024 (UTC)
- Admins have no more authority in discussions than a regular editor. Whether they are an admin or not is besides the point. Noah, AATalk 21:28, 3 May 2024 (UTC)
- Then to be crystal clear, a community consensus on the Commons determined a RadarOmega NEXRAD image is public domain and a community consensus, on the Commons, is required to overturn that. The 13+ year silent consensus on English Wikipedia on the topic has been broken, so as of this point in time, there is no consensus on English Wikipedia that NEXRAD/radar image are in-fact in the public domain. In fact, based on just this, consensus may be leaning toward they are not public domain, and therefore need to all be deleted/removed from articles. Using common sense, if RadarOmega is public domain, RadarScope/GR products are also public domain. The Weather Event Writer (Talk Page) 22:05, 3 May 2024 (UTC)
- @WeatherWriter I have no opinion on if nexrad images are or not a part of the public domain, however, it is quite clear that you need to take a step back, breathe and remember that Commons does not dictate what is in the public domain in the United states and what isn't. They can only advise what is and isn't based on the rules that are set out by the government. Jason Rees (talk) 23:46, 3 May 2024 (UTC)
- I will just say that there are numerous radar loops on Wikipedia (including one on the very article that started this discussion) that are straight from weather.gov.... those are obviously public domain. Master of Time (talk) 00:39, 4 May 2024 (UTC)
- Then to be crystal clear, a community consensus on the Commons determined a RadarOmega NEXRAD image is public domain and a community consensus, on the Commons, is required to overturn that. The 13+ year silent consensus on English Wikipedia on the topic has been broken, so as of this point in time, there is no consensus on English Wikipedia that NEXRAD/radar image are in-fact in the public domain. In fact, based on just this, consensus may be leaning toward they are not public domain, and therefore need to all be deleted/removed from articles. Using common sense, if RadarOmega is public domain, RadarScope/GR products are also public domain. The Weather Event Writer (Talk Page) 22:05, 3 May 2024 (UTC)
- So this whole debate cools down and gets sorted, I have posted a clarification to the copyright policy over on the Commons Copyright Discussion page (Commons:Village pump/Copyright#File:Evolution of the Minden–Harlen tornado.gif). Until this mess is sorted out, I have also removed the NEXRAD radar loop from the article in question, as that single loop sparked this whole discussion. Hopefully a true clear policy will come about from that discussion on the Commons noticeboard. The Weather Event Writer (Talk Page) 01:03, 4 May 2024 (UTC)
- I think this is an important discussion to have. As others have stated, NEXRAD data itself is obviously PD, but that's not the topic of conversation here. I think radar imagery derived from any non-U.S. government source and/or not created by someone explicitly stating a CC license should be considered copyright.
- RadarOmega has been brought up in this thread, so I'll use that as an example. On RadarOmega, the NEXRAD data itself is PD but the basemap on every map display is not (unless Mapbox and Maxar have a stated CC license or other agreement somewhere). Thus, portions of any screenshot or loop from RadarOmega including a basemap should be considered not PD, not because of the radar data but because of the map.
- It is my opinion that a loop found on social media created by that author using Python should also be considered copyright unless specifically stated otherwise, even if the data, software, map, etc. are PD. The Wikimedia contributor who uploads it is not the original creator of the work and thus is not the one who decides it is PD. If any part of a radar screenshot/loop is copyrighted, the whole thing is copyrighted. That image should be recreated from PD data and map imagery for CC use, not used anyway. Unfortunately, this will mean a lot of work to undo and change edits made my numerous well meaning editors.
- From here, I think the best course of action is to a) bring Commons in line with what is and isn't PD, b) compile a reference list of resources where screenshots are PD and c) form a NEXRAD task force that has the skillset to recreate and upload radar imagery with an associated request system for WP editors. DJ Cane (he/him) (Talk) 17:34, 5 May 2024 (UTC)