Wikipedia:Good article reassessment/Ghost in the Shell (video game)/1

Ghost in the Shell (video game) edit

Article (edit | visual edit | history) · Article talk (edit | history) · Watch • Watch article reassessment page • Most recent review

Result: Consensus for fail was upheld DragonZero (Talk · Contribs) 08:15, 12 February 2014 (UTC)[reply]

This article was opened and failed within 3 hours by the reviewer, Niwi3. Despite requests for a hold instead of a fail, Niwi3 maintains his editorial decision to fail. I wish for a reassessment on the grounds that doing so would result in another lengthy waiting process and that the "serious issues" addressed were largely trivial in nature. Among the reviewers list of issues were the omission of the game genre in the lead prose, a single awkward sentence, an unlinked link and making T*HQ -> THQ. All the problems were easily fixed within less than an hour's worth of work and in the same 24 hour period and Niwi3 refuses to look at it. The efforts to fix this were a joint effort with @Lucia Black: and @Niemti: who came to the article to immediately address the raised issues. I ask that someone reassess it. ChrisGualtieri (talk) 00:56, 16 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Just at a quick glance I see the following issues:

Whole paragraphs are unsourced in the Gameplay section
The Reception section is very thin. Right now it also has a [reviewer], [score], [quote] format. GA's have commentary organized by topic, so criticisms on graphics, praises on story, etc are together, creating a better flow. Right now its flow is poor.
What justification is there to have MobyGames and GameStats in the external links? MobyGames is an unreliable source, so it should not be included at all. GameStats would be useful to have in the Reception section if it actually has any merit for inclusion.
Be careful of the cast list use per WP:GAMETRIVIA. If there's merit for its inclusion consider merging it with the Soundtrack section, renaming that section to Audio, then turning it into prose.
Citation #27, "The Best Manga And Anime-based Games", should be cited Game Informer, not GameInformer.com
The Related media section should be in prose, as lists are to be avoided where possible

I don't know that it really should have been a quickfail, but I didn't bother to look at the before link listed above. However before I'd get behind an approval these things (at least) would need to be fixed, and that's just taking a quick glance. --Teancum (talk) 01:42, 17 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]

The gameplay stuff is more like plot with the way I added it in, but I cited it to the game and the reviews themselves. After all, a game play breakdown is pretty simple to verify with the primary source (the game) though the reviews did highlight it as well. The reception is a bit thin, but covers every known outlet that reviewed it. I don't want to "bloat" it, but I'll ask Lucia to take a quick read through the section because I do not have some of those sources on hand. The other minor issues have been addressed. ChrisGualtieri (talk) 02:35, 17 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]

I modified some of the reception to flow better and based mainly on topic. i'll make it "slightly" more expanded. but its very difficult, as the reception is thin because theres not many reviews out there. These were the only ones i can find.Lucia Black (talk) 03:49, 17 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]

[1] - Here are some sources. - New Age Retro Hippie (talk) (contributions) 20:03, 17 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Ref 2 and 3 dont bring anything new to what the article provides. i dont know how we can use them because they cover so little. i can attempt to use the first ref provided. but the rest can be used without question.Lucia Black (talk) 20:56, 17 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Further reception can probably be found in reviews at the Reference Library. E.g.:

And possibly via previews as well, e.g.:

Let me know if you'd like copies and I'll see what I can come up with. If you leave a note at Mitaphane's talk page he might be able to help you out too. -Thibbs (talk) 21:04, 17 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Those references are already used...and the ref Cnet review provided by Hippie is also a direct copy of the gamespot review.Lucia Black (talk) 21:30, 17 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]

It looks like the August issue of GameFan wasn't used. Also there is more in the Reference Library. There's an EGM review for example that I don't see in the article. -Thibbs (talk) 21:37, 17 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]

i know, i seen the august issue, theres not much information being provided in some previews that isn't already available. just because it was covered in multiple magazines, doesn't mean that all of them are useful. i will look into the EGM review though.Lucia Black (talk) 21:41, 17 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]

All i ask is to do some analysing on the article before suggesting a huge list of sources we already used. help is welcomes, as long as you know about the subject enough so that we dont repeat into similar problems.Lucia Black (talk) 21:44, 17 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]

OK I think for games of this era you may have to check paper sources if you want to beef up the reception section. I just found a review in EDGE magazine for example. As far as this game is concerned, I am probably not qualified. I really only know the anime/films so I'll back off. Good luck. -Thibbs (talk) 21:54, 17 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]

If you have the magazines it would be great to provide whatever information is there, i only have the gamefan and a few magazine scans available and most are already provided, the previews dont really share all that much other than certain gameplay features.Lucia Black (talk) 22:05, 17 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]

So per this comment I'm posting this review from EDGE. Sorry I missed the above post, Lucia Black. I have at least 2 other international reviews if you're interested in expanding the diversity of reviews beyond just the normal English-language sources. I don't want to suggest any articles that you've already reviewed and found to be unhelpful, though, so it might help if you could list the magazine scans you have that are not referenced in the article yet. Thanks. -Thibbs (talk) 05:41, 19 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]

The IGN preview provides reception for the game before its release. - New Age Retro Hippie (talk) (contributions) 22:13, 17 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]

What information do u find review-like in such preview?Lucia Black (talk) 22:23, 17 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Personally, i think there's significant amount of coverage in reception article to merit GA status. its not that small and it is well covered and well-sourced. Although i'm currently asking a few others editors who have access to other reviews, so that's pending. Overall, it's pretty good reception section for a seemingly one-hit wonder video game. it may be considered thin, but I've seen smaller reception or at least around the same range of size when it comes to GAs.Lucia Black (talk) 02:10, 19 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]

I don't see any further issues, but I don't edit that much any more so I'll let someone else determine whether it passes. --Teancum (talk) 03:33, 29 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]

I think Lucia Black's additional edits has resolved the issues. Over 120 edits have been made since my GA nomination and the "Making of Game" source has been included. The article is more comprehensive than ever before and serves as a complete overview of the the topic from development to its critical reception; going as far as to credit the cast (via magazine sources) when even the game itself failed to provide that distinction. ChrisGualtieri (talk) 04:13, 29 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Uphold fail, suggest regular renomination - I hate to say it given the good work that's already gone into this one, but at a glance, I still see at least some copyediting problems like comma splices, which/that confusion, other comma misuse, odd repetitions like "The game had received mainly positive reviews for its graphics, animation, and music, including its unusual wall-climbing mechanics, including living up to the Ghost in the Shell namesake.", etc. For that reason at least, this one isn't ready to promote.

I realize that these problems could be fixed with about 30 minutes of work on my part, but IMHO, that isn't really what GAR is for. Per the instructions, "it is rarely helpful to request a community reassessment for an article which has not had a proper review; it is usually simpler to renominate it"; I understand the nominator's frustration at having a review closed, but I'm not sure there was any outstanding or complicated issue here that required us to do a team re-review. (I'd also add that Niwi's criticisms seemed to me legitimate, especially the incomplete lead and discussion of gameplay; we can dispute whether s/he closed too quickly, but I think there's no disputing that these are issues that should have been checked and fixed before nominating.)

This seems like one of those GARs that is likely to drag on indefinitely and close as no consensus--it just takes too many reviewer hours for two or three or four of us to each do a full review and come to consensus. Personally I'd suggest closing and renominating for a regular second review. I do appreciate all the work you've done to improve this one, though, and I hope it makes it to GA soon! -- Khazar2 (talk) 11:52, 1 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]

I dont think it should be closed. if its so close, why even re-nominate it? or does the amount of response seems to be too much?

these edits would take upto less than an hour, so i feel like, its being ended for the sake of ending the current re-nomination.Lucia Black (talk) 03:32, 2 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Saying that it's "so close" is a bit of a misreading of my comment--I said there were at least some mild copyediting problems here; having seen that, I didn't do a full review for the other criteria. If other editors feel this is a pass, I don't mind my more superficial look being discounted. -- Khazar2 (talk) 12:43, 2 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]

I did do some more copyediting. I'll print it out and give another look, but as a whole aside from one typo and two instances of Playstation not being PlayStation, I think the spelling is set. Grammar, I did notice some past tense errors and less than perfect prose so I'll try and clean it up some more. ChrisGualtieri (talk) 15:31, 2 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks, Chris, much appreciated. -- Khazar2 (talk) 00:41, 3 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]

I said it was so close because we've addressed everything people have had issues. if the only issue you have is grammar, you can list them here, and we can fix them.Lucia Black (talk) 19:40, 2 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]

I appreciate your work, but I have to say I'm a bit put off by your tone of entitlement. I have a lot of other projects going, and was already doing a favor by looking over this one at your request; I'm not going to do a full copyedit, too. I'm sorry I couldn't give this the enthusiastic endorsement we all wanted. I really would like to see it as a GA, and I hope it gets there soon. Opening two complaining threads at GAN as well as a community reassessment at GAR, though, really puts the burden on you to make sure it's actually GA quality first. When I looked earlier today, it didn't appear to me to be there. Others may well disagree, and as I said, I don't mind deferring to them if they do. Best of luck, -- Khazar2 (talk) 00:41, 3 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]

@Khazar2:What tone of entitlement is there? Lets stick to the GAR. you said it yourself: the issues can be fixed, under a day, but the point is to list them here so we can fix it. That's all i'm asking. Unless you really do want to fail the renomination again, simply for reasons i don't understand. You dont need to bring up previous complaints in other threads, this isn't about me (WP:NPA), and i didn't nominate it in the first place. But since all issues have been met, except yours, you should at least provide what u have issues before suggesting failure.Lucia Black (talk) 02:01, 3 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Lucia, have you ever looked at WP:BLUDGEON? We disagree about the obligations of someone posting a !vote at a reassessment, and that's okay, it happens. There's no need to post over and over again to rebuke my comment. If this article is the surefire pass you believe it to be, other editors will surely pass it. We disagree; c'est la vie. I've removed this from my watchlist, and while you're welcome to keep responding all you like, please don't ping me here again. All best, -- Khazar2 (talk) 04:08, 3 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]

@Khazar2: (for the record, I'm only sending a ping for the sake of this article. Not to cause trouble)

please stop dodging the issue at hand and assuming things. All I ask is that you provide the issues that you find in this article so that we may fix them. So far all you brought was that it had grammar issues. So I don't understand why you can't provide them here so that they can't be fixed. Its not like the problem with citations.

Also note that GARs range from group to individual editors. So. It doesn't really have to be a vote. It can pass just by one editor deciding.

Whether it passes or not, the issues should still be listed by the one claiming there is. Otherwise, I can't help but assume bad faith on the one who claims there are grammar issues, and chooses to avoid going in detail. Its like you don't want us to fix it. And if I'm wrong, it would be great to list the issues.Lucia Black (talk) 05:50, 3 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Stale, uphold fail and submit for re-nomination: At this point, this GAR has pretty much gone by the wayside. No feedback since early December. I'd say it's time to just close this up with no significant consensus to change the status of the article, and have it submitted for re-nomination through the GAN process. Red Phoenix ^{build the future...}_{remember the past...} 18:52, 21 January 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Agreed, a fresh consensus should be had here for a GAN. - Knowledgekid87 (talk) 03:29, 24 January 2014 (UTC)[reply]