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Wikipedia:Featured list candidates/List of awards and nominations received by Paul Kelly

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The following is an archived discussion of a featured list nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured list candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The list was promoted by User:Matthewedwards 16:40, 2 October 2008 [1].

List of awards and nominations received by Paul Kelly edit

List is well researched & referenced. Dan arndt (talk) 00:56, 22 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Comments - Needs a little attention to WP:MOS

  • You've misused {{tl:Main}}. See the documentation on the template. It should only be used when you've split a big article into several parts, and the main article is written in summary style.
removed Paul Kelly (musician). Dan arndt (talk) 09:42, 22 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • Grammar of your lead paragraph needs a look. I think the second sentence could be reworded to flow a bit better.
Second sentence has been reworded: hopefully it scans better now.Shaidar cuebiyar (talk) 11:15, 22 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • The Footnotes link in the Infobox style table is broken.
fixed footnote link. Dan arndt (talk) 10:18, 22 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • You have a certain amount of inconsistency between the tables. In some you have a column 'Nominated work' and in others you have 'For' for example. I also dislike the way that entries in the second column frequently 'half-span' entries in the first column. I would prefer to see the entries in the second column repeated.
fixed the column headings to ensure consistency & have fixed 'half-span' enteries - as per suggestion. Dan arndt (talk) 09:40, 22 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • You introduce abbreviations at odd times. For example, you've used 'Australasian Performing Right Association' a couple of times by the time you start using APRA. Might as well just use it from the first.
Good point, should look better.Shaidar cuebiyar (talk) 11:15, 22 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
In trying to correct some of this, you've started linking section titles, which you shouldn't do according to WP:MOS. Mrh30 (talk) 10:09, 22 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
De-Linked section titles, used linked abbreviations within first sentence after section heading (where applicable).Shaidar cuebiyar (talk) 11:15, 22 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Get these done and the article should be well on the way. Mrh30 (talk) 08:25, 22 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Further comments Definite progress. Compare some of the other similar lists currently in the nomination procees, such as List of The Neptunes awards. That list has several key things that raise it above the Paul Kelly one currently.

I've just had a look at the FLC awards articles including List of The Neptunes awards, List of Aerosmith awards, List of Metallica awards and List of Ciara awards. I have a better idea of what you mean. I based my work on this list by modelling it on the FL List of Crowded House awards which was passed just over a year ago.Shaidar cuebiyar (talk) 12:37, 22 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • Consistent width of tables
See next point.Shaidar cuebiyar (talk) 00:25, 23 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • Reorder columns of tables Year-Song-Award-Result
Both of these problems seem to be handled by using {{awards table}}, which I've just learnt about (by following your advice and looking at those awards FLCs). I've converted the ARIA table but the others will have to wait for tommorrow.Shaidar cuebiyar (talk) 14:00, 22 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Rest of tables should now have consistent widths and reordered columns.Shaidar cuebiyar (talk) 00:25, 23 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • You've still got some overlinking going on. For example Paul Kelly himself is linked multiple times. Kev Carmody is linked in two different but consecutive notes.
I've delinked a few more, hopefully its enough.Shaidar cuebiyar (talk) 00:25, 23 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • Can you use the 'Infobox Musician Awards' template instead of your own custom box?
Thanks for the Heads-up there. I didn't even know there was such an Infobox!Shaidar cuebiyar (talk) 12:37, 22 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Getting there! Mrh30 (talk) 11:51, 22 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Comments

Ed Nimmervoll runs Howlspace, he has been an Australian rock music commentator/editor since 1966 and Howlspace editor for about ten years. He also writes reviews for allmusic, including the entry for Paul Kelly which is summarised from his Howlspace entry.Shaidar cuebiyar (talk) 00:25, 23 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
See Paul Kelly discography discussion at its FLC comments.Shaidar cuebiyar (talk) 00:25, 23 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
To determine the reliablity of the site, we need to know what sort of fact checking they do. You can establish this by showing news articles that say the site is reliable/noteworthy/etc. or you can show a page on the site that gives their rules for submissions/etc. or you can show they are backed by a media company/university/institute, or you can show that the website gives its sources and methods, or there are some other ways that would work too. It's their reputation for reliabilty that needs to be demonstrated. Please see Wikipedia:Wikipedia Signpost/2008-06-26/Dispatches for further detailed information. Ealdgyth - Talk 13:42, 25 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
I see that there have been other posts claiming that mvdbase is not reliable. I'm not sure that I can definitively demonstrate that it is reliable for all those users. However I will attempt to support my opinion that it is reliable:
  1. mvdbase Introduction claims that it has existed since 1998 (initially as VideoZone), that it is maintained and produced by Alex S Garcia, that input is by email or online forms.
  2. mvdbase stats claims 56070 videos in its database with 41498 having a director named.
  3. mvdbase Goals and motivations also asks for input and adds that it will be acknowledged on a credit page.
  4. Alexa Internet analysis at Site information from Alexa shows mvdbase was first registered in December 1999 and is run by Alex S Garcia from a site in France.
  5. According to Top reference related websites by number of links from Wikipedia it has 55 links from within Wikipedia.
  6. It is cited by UK Screen The Film and Music Network e.g. Andrea Chiozzotto: Director of Photography.
  7. It is cited by Poemhunter e.g. Melissa Byers references bibliography.
  8. LinkedIn profile claims Alex Garcia has been an entertainment journalist for 15 years and a webmaster for over ten years.
  9. Westfield State College Ely Library lists mvdbase as Film & Televison Web Resource.

In summary, #1, #2 and #3 show that the website gives its sources and methods, the others either reinforce some of the claims made on the mvdbase website or show that it has a reputation for reliability.Shaidar cuebiyar (talk) 23:47, 25 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I've decided to use the mvdbase ref as a backup, I now have ARIA (search by history of Year: 1988) itself confirm that Claudia Castle directed the video. I hope this resolves the problem for this article.Shaidar cuebiyar (talk) 08:11, 26 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Telstra is an Australian telco which runs BigPond (an internet provider), they sponsor webspace for the Not For Sale Country Music Awards archive. The awards themselves are not determined by BigPond. The sponsor for the awards in 2000 was Toyota.Shaidar cuebiyar (talk) 00:25, 23 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

APRA has recently reformatted its webpage and moved its Search engine tool. I've found the new url and inserted it into the ref.Shaidar cuebiyar (talk) 00:25, 23 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Otherwise sources look good, links checked out with the link checker tool. Ealdgyth - Talk 12:44, 22 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment - I don't think we need the stray awards at the end of the first sentence, there's a certain reasonable time when bold is not useful anymore. Also, I think the title sounds more like "Awards given out by Paul Kelly"; it would be good to rename "List of awards won by Paul Kelly". The crusade starts somewhere. --Golbez (talk) 16:53, 24 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
fixed lead sentence - deleted highlighting of awards. Have been following the discussion on FLC talk page and don't have a problem with the renaming of the article - provided that there is some sort of agreed convention, with all similar articles being renamed accordingly. The only point I would raise is that most of these articles deal with nominations as well as wins so "list of awards won by Paul Kelly" would not be entirely correct. I would hope that this issue as it is unreslved would not delay the finalisation of the article's FLC. Dan arndt (talk) 01:03, 25 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Likewise, under those same circumstances, "List of Paul Kelly awards" is not entirely correct. :) I did not oppose, merely commented; the crusade is not bloody yet. :P I have no opposition to this being a featured list. --Golbez (talk) 06:07, 25 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Resolved comments from The Rambling Man (talk) 16:22, 29 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose

  • Lead should be expanded to a pair of beefy paragraphs.
agreed, totally new paragraph added to Lead which details all his studio albums. Add some more detail to previous Lead paragrah (now paragraph two.)Shaidar cuebiyar (talk) 12:47, 25 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • "who has either won, or been nominated, for " odd phrasing - I think he's won and been nominated, right?
Shaidar cuebiyar (talk) 12:47, 25 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • "has won includes eight " include.
Shaidar cuebiyar (talk) 12:47, 25 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • What criteria for inclusion are being used? You have a number of award ceremonies which don't have Wikipedia articles. Check Criterion 3 of WP:WIAFL for "defined scope".
I believe this has been addressed in re-writing the Lead paragraphs, first paragraphy details main studio albums, second paragraph describes awards being considered.Shaidar cuebiyar (talk) 23:26, 26 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • Seems to be 7 nominations short in the infobox?
whoops forgot to fill in last two for some unknown reason.Shaidar cuebiyar (talk) 12:47, 25 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • " under many guises " I think you perform in many guises, not under them.
Shaidar cuebiyar (talk) 12:47, 25 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • "under many guises including as a solo act, the Paul ...." I still find this and the rest of the sentence confusing.
I've restructured this whole sentence: is it any better?Shaidar cuebiyar (talk) 12:47, 25 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • "...performed or composed award winning or nominated songs with other artists Christine Anu, Uncle ..." "other artists including ..."?
Shaidar cuebiyar (talk) 12:47, 25 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • "His most nominated category ..." The category for which he has received most nominations...
Shaidar cuebiyar (talk) 12:47, 25 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • "years in a row 1995–2002 " "...row from 1995 to 2002"
Shaidar cuebiyar (talk) 12:47, 25 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • "honour songwriters and music composers" for what?
Expanded the information here.Shaidar cuebiyar (talk) 12:47, 25 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • "Australia's longest running music awards" citation?
It's a claim made on the awards page but I've modified the sentence to say they started in 1973 (their archives support this claim) and then cited their stated purpose for the awards. No longer make the claim that they're the longest running music awards.Shaidar cuebiyar (talk) 12:47, 25 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • "and recognise achievements in live entertainment " such as?
I've added more to the Mo Awards section with a listing of 2008 categories and 1989/1990 relevant (to PK) category.Shaidar cuebiyar (talk) 00:46, 26 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • Ref 1 is not specific enough.
I changed the references order when I beefed up the Lead (see above) and before I read this point. I'm assuming that you're talking about the APRA ref has to give the specific songwriters per song? I've rejigged the "To Her Door" ref so that it points straight to the result. The Treaty ref has been changed to an ASCAP result as the APRA display runs out of room before getting to Kelly's name! The other songwriters' refs will be per particular song using APRA where possible.Shaidar cuebiyar (talk) 00:46, 26 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
As indicated above, APRA has recently reconfigured its webpage including its search engines. The changeover broke the ref that I originally had in place and which was fixed by using a different url to their new engine. As a consequence the search engine works differently from previously. Specificially: the re-jigging didn't stick. When you click on Search result it only gives the last searched result no matter whether you have searched six songs today or searched for a song some time ago. The user would then have to click on "search again" button and then input the song title they actually want. Hence the original note for user to input song title appears to be the best that can be done with the current APRA search engine. ASCAP results appears to stick but unfortunately not all Australian songs are registered with ASCAP e.g. a search for Paul Maurice Kelly gives 188 entries (some duplicated) but does not show "Last Train" performed by Anu and Kelly, which is verifiable at APRA engine after input of LAST TRAIN.Shaidar cuebiyar (talk) 01:43, 26 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
The Rambling Man (talk) 09:43, 25 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • Weak support - good stuff apart from the non-specific reference. The Rambling Man (talk) 16:22, 29 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
I've added ASCAP specific references for the following Kelly songs "To Her Door", "Treaty", "Jindabyne" and "Lonesome but Free", unfortunately some songs are not registered with ASCAP and so the less specific APRA search engine is supplied where users will have to input the songs' titles e.g. LAST TRAIN, LANTANA, I WISH I WAS A TRAIN, ONE NIGHT THE MOON, and FROM LITTLE THINGS BIG THINGS GROW.Shaidar cuebiyar (talk) 04:24, 30 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Not being entirely satisfied with the APRA search engine I have tried a 'work-around' to provide a more specifc result for all the above songs. The ASCAP refs remain in place, particularly important for "Treaty". The user no longer needs to input anything: the search results occur on a re-direct page from the base search engine. The APRA search engine only operates on song titles, it provides up to 250 outputs for a search string. Thus some results here may have considerable outputs e.g. "Last Train" gives 89 works and the required one is 12th down. I hope this is closer to being a specific reference.Shaidar cuebiyar (talk) 10:54, 30 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.
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