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Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/Drakengard/archive1

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The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The article was promoted by Ian Rose 07:57, 15 July 2014 [1].

Drakengard edit

Nominator(s): ProtoDrake (talk) 08:08, 4 June 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Drakengard is a single-player action role-playing video game developed by now-defunct Japanese video game developer Cavia. It was released on the PlayStation 2 on September 11, 2003 in Japan, March 2, 2004 in North America and May 21, 2004 in European territories. The title was published in Japan and North America by Square Enix and in European territories by Take-Two Interactive. A mobile port of the game was co-developed and co-published by Square Enix and Macrospace in 2004. The title is a gameplay hybrid between the beat-em-up video game series Dynasty Warriors, and the aerial combat series Ace Combat: the ground gameplay is based around hack-and-slash combat, while the aerial combat has the player fighting with a dragon. Its story and atmosphere was inspired by popular animes and movies of the day. --ProtoDrake (talk) 08:08, 4 June 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Image review by PresN edit

I think I've done that. --ProtoDrake (talk) 22:02, 5 June 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Now passed. --PresN 23:31, 5 June 2014 (UTC)[reply]

I find this article well written and all so I say Pass but I still find the sentences "The events of the fifth ending lead into Nier" and "These events lead into Drakengard 2." to be unnecessary. You aren't informing anything about the plot with that. Maybe they could be used in legacy. The reference from the lead's first paragraph should also be removed per WP:Lead since that isn't such controversional statement.Tintor2 (talk) 02:33, 7 June 2014 (UTC)[reply]

I've done as you suggested, plus a few little edits in the quote references for consistency. It looks much neater now. --ProtoDrake (talk) 11:26, 7 June 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Comments from CR4ZE edit

Copy-edit of Gameplay/Plot done. (Coming back to do more later). Review my changes to see if you like them. Try to use "that" in place of "which", unless using ", which" as an aside. I saw switching between "players" and "the player" throughout, so I've picked "players" and kept it consistent.

  • "Angelus gains experience points and levels up through combat similar to the weapons for ground-based combat." Which is similar – experience points, leveling up or combat? Clarify.
  • "magical objects tied to a living female". Is the Goddess of the Seal literally bonded to the seals or is it a magical connection? Clarify.
  • "and the destruction of the seals ... begin destroying humanity". This sentence struck me as a bit funny. Too much "the [x]" and "and"'s, feels like there should be commas in there somewhere. (I split the sentences joined together with colons because they felt like separate clauses).
  • "During a battle with the forces of the Empire to protect Furiae, Caim is severely injured". Who is protecting Furiae? Perhaps try "Caim is severely injured while trying to protect Furiae during a battle with the forces of the Empire". I'll leave that one up to you.
  • "Encountering Angelus wounded from torture, the two agree to make a pact and save each other". Who are the two? Angelus and Caim? Do they...encounter Angelus? Clarify.
  • "Verdelet and Caim travel to each of the Seals". How many Seals are there? A small thing, but it'd help give the reader an idea of the scope of the plot.
  • "and spirits her away". What does this mean?
  • "which led to Inuart becoming jealous and easily turned against them during his captivity". Is the switch to past tense deliberate here? "easily turned against them" sounds a bit off. If "easily turned" is an adverb it should be hyphened. Otherwise, clarify.
  • I changed "Inuart manages to resurrect Furiae, turning her into a monster which kills him" but I'm still not happy with either rendition. Can you have a go at clarifying this sentence?
  • "but not before clones of her are produced to destroy humanity". Do the clones actually destroy humanity or is it just implied?
  • I've brought this up in the peer review before, but I'm still seeing a lot of "the game" or "Drakengard" in place of "it". Have a go at reworking sentences altogether so that you don't need to keep referring back. Often I find (in my own writing) you don't need to use anything because the reader always assumes you're talking about the game. (Here's a diff during Grand Theft Auto V's FAC to show you the approach I think you could take).
  • I'll leave you with that for now as it's all I've got time for, but I'll be back later to run through the rest of the article. CR4ZE (t • c) 01:56, 17 June 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Done all of the above I think. I've gone through it with a tooth-comb. Now the only references to "Drakengard" and "the game" are ones I left in there to alter it might have made the sentence look clunky or confusing. I also rewrote a few pieces so they made more sense. If there are any I've missed, please point them out. I'm determined to get that little golden star for this article. --ProtoDrake (talk) 08:47, 17 June 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Copy-edit of Development/Reception/Legacy done. Thanks for getting to the above. I'm still not getting Angelus' leveling up during combat. What is similar to Caim's weapons? "Linked" is still as ambiguous as "ties" when talking about the Goddess's magical objects. What is the link/tie?

  • "who each independently created their backgrounds". They created the backgrounds of themselves or the characters? Clarify.
  • "she admitted to feeling embarrassed by her writing as the child who voice Seere and Manah spoke her lines". I was going to try to fix this, but I have no idea what it means.
  • "in contrast to the likes of Dragon Quest and Final Fantasy". What is the relevance of the comparison here? Is it something the journalist writing the article found or a goal set out by the developers? Clarify.
  • "everything [felt] like it was coming together in the best possibly way". What was coming together? Perhaps paraphrase or remove this part of the quote.
  • Should western be capitalised? I could be wrong on this.
  • "In addition to this, some of the more mature themes, such as references to sexual taboos, were censored in the western localization". This is really interesting. Is there more to develop on this point? What was censored and why?
  • The bit about the mobile phone still feels a little tacked-on. Perhaps you could move it to the end of the paragraph and mention Macrospace as its developer (then the bit about PS2 tips). That might fit better. And you'd lose the need to have the footnote in the infobox, too.
  • "composition"→"being composed". A fix I made that I just thought I'd bring your attention to for future. "Composition" really only works as a noun.
  • "By the end of 2003, it had sold 241,014 copies in the region". Check the source here to make sure it's referring to sold-through not sold-in. I'm not sure if you're Japanese or even speak the language, but check just to be sure.
  • Following from that, I still feel like getting some commentary beyond just a review score from Japanese reviewers is missing. Are you certain you've done everything you can to get your hands on the Famitsu review? Have you asked at jawp? Have you tried online archives? It'd be really additive to the entire section to have some analysis from a native reviewer.
  • "IGN's Jeremy Dunham called it the game's "biggest strength", praising the edgy themes the game explored, the balance between fantasy and the realistic world and character design, and the multiple parallels with Neon Genesis Evangelion". I started to fix this messy sentence but it still needs more work. Too much "and". Perhaps there's three-sentences' material in this?
  • "saying it seemed to surpass other RPGs produced by Square Enix at the time". Sexy sibilance, sir, if a little kitsch. "saying it seemed" is a bit awkward. Is it the "maturity and wit of the dialogue" or the "unfolding plot" that surpasses RPGs?
  • I was going to rework the Reception by removing the topic sentences and reducing some of those heavy sentences. I think the former comes down to preference, but I would like you to run through Reception and make sure you keep sentences as concise as possible. Would you like to have a try? It's just off reaching the "brilliant" criteria.
  • "Hardcore Gamer's Jahanzeb Khan spoke favorably referred to it as a precursor". Probably a typo here but didn't know how to fix it. What is the "it" in this sentence? I know I said above to reduce "the game" and "Drakengard" but be very careful because the previous sentence has a different subject that could be the "it" of the following. Clarify.

That's it from me. Not too much work needed. You're basically there. CR4ZE (t • c) 12:56, 18 June 2014 (UTC)[reply]

@CR4ZE: I really have tried my very best to address the issues. The Reception section was inspired by the structure of Final Fantasy XIII-2. I've tried to do some clarification, alteration and correction, and removed quotes where needed. As to Japanese reviews, the ones that are there are the ones that I found after searching through tons of internet fodder. Without a fluent knowledge of written Japanese and the original magazine in my hand, I can't do anything more. I realize that I may have missed something, or several somethings, but I've done my very best. Every single article concerned with the Drakengard series has provided this kind of difficulty. --ProtoDrake (talk) 15:22, 18 June 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Support on prose then. My suggestion (for this and other Drakengard articles) is that you ask at jawp and see if there's someone there who could lend a hand. I'm sure you'd be forgiven if you spoke to them with Google Translate. Otherwise, the reviews you have now will do. Your changes look good. The minor cleanups to Reception work for me. I think the entire family of Drakengard-related articles looks great, so I encourage you to take the entire topic all the way. CR4ZE (t • c) 15:47, 18 June 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Comments from Tezero edit

As I promised.

  • I've made a few small prose fixes.
  • Is it appropriate to make a comparison to other franchises in the Gameplay body at all?
  • It's GameSpot, not Gamespot.
  • "Each a four-level cap." - Each has a four-level cap? Each four-level cap does something?
  • "living female" - Living female what? Human? You can just go with "woman", "girl", or something of the like, then.
  • "with her believing" - I'd prefer "including the belief"
  • "Furiae stabs herself" - I'd add "non-fatally"
  • "epics from Asia" - Epic... poems? Epic prose? Epic films?
  • "role-playing game" - To clarify, do you mean "role-playing video game"?
  • Speaking of which, why isn't "action role-playing game" said once in Gameplay?
  • Northern Europe should be linked.
  • Prince, however, shouldn't.
  • "Though citing" - Grammatical?
  • Why is the Japanese coverart used, especially since it doesn't even share the North American title?

And... that should be it. Tezero (talk) 16:59, 1 July 2014 (UTC)[reply]

@Tezero: I think I've got it all sorted. Your opinion, please? --ProtoDrake (talk) 17:43, 1 July 2014 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support. Sorry, I caught this yesterday but got distracted before I could pin up my vote. I believe this article passes the FA criteria and am happy to help it along its way. Nice work. Tezero (talk) 16:02, 3 July 2014 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support - It appears well written, thorough, images few and properly justified, sources are reliable and well regarded. It will serve as a good start for a Drakengard Featured Topic! Great work as always. Judgesurreal777 (talk) 01:45, 4 July 2014 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comments from Crisco 1492
    • It was published in Japan and North America by Square Enix and in European territories by Take-Two Interactive. It was released on September 11, 2003 in Japan, on March 2, 2004 in North America, and on May 21, 2004 in Europe. - I have the feeling that you could merge these two sentences easily
    • Looking at the lead, there are too many sentences starting with "It" or "Its"; very repetitiitititive
    • I'd introduce the chapters and verses as levels before going into the mechanics, otherwise the exact definition of "Level" is not clear
    • The structure of the first paragraph of #Gameplay is rather odd. It goes from Gameplay, Definition of Levels, to Gameplay. I'd have the levels with levels and the gameplay mode information with other such information.
    • a full-screen map can be switched to that covers the entire area and shows mission objectives - I'd rework this to avoid the dangling participle ("can be switched to")
  • Link some gaming terms for casual readers, such as world map --> world map etc.
  • Your link to "Levels" (Level (video gaming)) is about the "verses" in this game rather than actual weapon levelling (that would be at Experience_level#Level-based_progression). I suggest massaging the text a bit to allow links to both articles.
  • The soundtrack was originally released in two volumes under the names Drag-On Dragoon Original Soundtrack Vol.1 and Drag-On Dragoon Original Soundtrack Vol.2. They were released on October 22 and November 21, 2003 respectively. - This could also be merged without any problems
  • years later - when?
  • The characters' stories were created by Yoko, Shiba and Iwasaki, who each independently created the character backgrounds. - Did they all individually develop backgrounds for each character, or were they each given certain characters to go over?
  • The paragraph starting "The characters' stories" leaps from characters to overall to characters again.
  • You should probably find a way to cut down on the frequency of then- and "at the time". Obviously this is in the past tense, so some of it is redundant.
  • novel adaptions - novelisations / novelizations is also correct, and perhaps a less tortured construction
  • More later. — Crisco 1492 (talk) 09:57, 13 July 2014 (UTC)[reply]
I've done some work on it. I rearranged the gameplay and development sections, though the latter may need a rewrite. I also did my best looking for excessive use of "it"s and past-tense wording. I also did some more trimming with commas and merging some sentences. Plus, a minor correction and some clarification concerning who created the characters. It's very difficult when you're working almost exclusively from Japanese. --ProtoDrake (talk) 10:46, 13 July 2014 (UTC)[reply]
  • You repeat "in Japan", "in X", etc. a lot in #Reception. Finding a way to cut that down would help
  • Game Informer were - I believe in AmE this would be "Game Informer was"
I've just done these. Thanks. Everything helps. --ProtoDrake (talk) 14:29, 13 July 2014 (UTC)[reply]
  • Last comment from me: any coverage of the mobile phone port? You mention in the lead and in passing, but don't actually give much information about it. — Crisco 1492 (talk) 14:35, 13 July 2014 (UTC)[reply]
If I had found anything more on the mobile version, I would have put it in. That's the main gap in the article, and it's a gap that can't be plugged. And I did a minor grammar fix in the lead. I know it uses an "it", but it was the only way I could make the sentence work. --ProtoDrake (talk) 14:46, 13 July 2014 (UTC)[reply]
  • French, German, anything? We don't even have a release date. — Crisco 1492 (talk) 14:57, 13 July 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Nothing. Zip. Nada. I've looked, and on top of that the Square Enix Mobile references are dead and don't exist on any reputable archiving sites. So we either keep what there is and admit that there are gaps or delete it from the article. There is nothing there but what I and others found and could use. --ProtoDrake (talk) 15:29, 13 July 2014 (UTC)[reply]
  • This, maybe? (July 2004). Full bibliographic information at List of Square Enix mobile games. Or Games TM's "All Square with Vidaphone" (which gives August, but also discusses the position of Drakengard in Square's mobile strategy). From these two you can at least say "A Europe-exclusive mobile version of Drakengard was released in mid-2004 as part of a collaboration between Square-Enix and Vodafone" or something similar. (On an unrelated note: ActRaiser for mobile sounds very interesting) — Crisco 1492 (talk) 00:15, 14 July 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Thank you. I've put in the info. It's actually looking quite good now. Again, thank you. Now, unless there are other issues that need pointing out (such as with the editing I've just done), would you count this article as a pass of a fail? --ProtoDrake (talk) 07:24, 14 July 2014 (UTC)[reply]
The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.
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