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Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/Cycling at the 2008 Summer Olympics – Men's road race

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The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The article was promoted by User:SandyGeorgia 04:18, 5 September 2008 [1].

Cycling at the 2008 Summer Olympics – Men's road race edit

Nominator(s): Tone


The article has recently been promoted to a GA. It is comprehensive, sourced, with illustrative images and it is written in the style of other articles about olympic events. In case there are some minor issues, they can be addressed quickly, otherwise, I think the article is in good shape. Tone 17:48, 21 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]

  • Comment - it's a bit early (within two weeks) to nominate for FAC, but that's no reason to oppose. A question: is there any more precision available? And did they first six cross the finish line within a second of each other? Sceptre (talk) 17:55, 21 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]
At cycling races, time is measured in seconds. But because the speed is high, the distance difference between racers that finish within one second can be considerable (I am not sure, do they use photo-finish? Probably it was not needed.) --Tone 20:32, 21 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Photo finishes happen, but this race didn't have one. Sanchez was visibly first, Rebellin was visibly second, Cancellara was visibly third. Cyclists who arrive in the same group are given the same time (if you're more than one bike-length behind the man in front of you, you'll be given a separate time). You'll see this in the Tour de France - often the 150-man peloton will all have the same time, despite the fact that upwards of a minute will have passed between the time the stage winner crosses the line and the last man does. This is to discourage jockeying for position in the front of a large group (except, of course, in a sprint for the line, or occasionally there will be mass sprints for lower positions, such as when a breakaway survives to the line but points classification points are still available for the lower placings available to the peloton minutes later). Don't fall asleep zzzzzz 00:00, 23 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]
This applies strongly to riders 20-36. If someone thinks this is worth explaining, this (other things section) explicitly supports what you've said (I have to signpost these things)...but I don't feel it to be necessary. Yohan euan o4 (talk) 01:26, 23 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]
I have contributed to the article myself and there were some ideas of nominating this article before (of course, GA first). The reason why I nominated it straight after it became a GA is that the article is pretty much complete in content and would therefore not change much during next weeks. Constructive comments at FAC usually help to polish the last details. --Tone 20:32, 21 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Right off the bat, how do articles pass GA with incorrect names? In terms of fixing the incorrect hyphen, please come to consensus before renaming and moving the article and FAC; an incorrect move is complicated to fix, and there are several pieces that need to be gotten to the right place (the article, article talk, the FAC itself, and the FAC listing). Once the correct name is settled upon, please ask for help here in getting all the moves in the right place. Tone, if you haven't consulted the principle editors, the FAC should be withdrawn, and then the name can be sorted. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 20:59, 21 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]

The name is being discussed at the Olympics project and there was a consensus that all the articles will be removed to use the en dash but only after the games. So this will be taken care of in a week or so. --Tone 21:09, 21 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]
I have asked Karanacs to fix the redirects. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 14:01, 30 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Another comment on the name, which I had noticed at GA. The lead starts "The men's road race," So how come it's a capital for "Men" in the name? Peanut4 (talk) 23:10, 21 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]

This is the standard naming of the olympic events articles. I don't see a problem here. --Tone 12:32, 22 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Comments

It's the official website of the professional cycling team that employed some of the riders in the race (at least three, off the top of my head, possibly more). Other websites of professional teams are used in the article as well (the websites of Team Milram, Astana Team, and Team CSC Saxo Bank). These websites routinely produce content about the performance of riders in their employ in various cycling events around the world. The only difference between the Slipstream reference (Slipstream Sports is the parent company of Team Garmin-Chipotle) and the other pro teams' sites is this one doesn't have an identified byline. Don't fall asleep zzzzzz 23:14, 22 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Honestly, I'm not certain of what makes a source "reliable" at all, but that reference is probably replaceable if need be. Don't fall asleep zzzzzz 23:14, 22 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]
The website is comprehensive and neutral in its coverage. It's reliable because it doesn't contradict any of the other sources (but you can justify using the others because they provide varying levels of detail). Yohan euan o4 (talk) 01:26, 23 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]
To determine the reliablity of the site, we need to know what sort of fact checking they do. You can establish this by showing news articles that say the site is reliable/noteworthy/etc. or you can show a page on the site that gives their rules for submissions/etc. or you can show they are backed by a media company/university/institute, or you can show that the website gives its sources and methods, or there are some other ways that would work too. It's their reputation for reliabilty that needs to be demonstrated. Please see Wikipedia:Wikipedia Signpost/2008-06-26/Dispatches for further detailed information. Ealdgyth - Talk 13:47, 23 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Well I think it's reliable but it doesn't stand up to those criteria, so it has to go, along with the reason for Monfort's withdrawal (I found a national newspaper that mentioned his crash, but it didn't say that he withdrew). Unless Nosleep found anything...? Yohan euan o4 (talk) 22:48, 24 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]
What's the status on this? Ealdgyth - Talk 21:48, 26 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]
It's gone, and I can't find anything on Monfort's withdrawal elsewhere. The removal of one withdrawal reason, when there are numerous riders without them, will not put the FA in jeopardy. Yohan euan o4 (talk) 11:43, 27 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • Please spell out abbreviations in the references, such as BOCOG, UCI, etc.
  • Current ref 45 is blank. The link is working [2].--Tone 19:08, 22 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Generally at FAC the person who makes the comment/concern strikes through when they feel the issues is resolved. Since the ref isn't blank any more, I've left the strike in. Ealdgyth - Talk 13:47, 23 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Otherwise sources look good. Links checked out with the link checker tool. Ealdgyth - Talk 12:57, 22 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Images have correct license tags, sufficient descriptions, and working source links. Awadewit (talk) 15:32, 22 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Question - Is this staying here or not? I was planning to review this, but if it's going to be withdrawn I'd rather focus my energy on the other articles I'm tracking here. Giants2008 (17-14) 18:36, 22 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]

You are welcome to review it. The article is being checked already so let's put it through. --Tone 19:08, 22 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]
I don't mind it staying. Nobody seems to think that its nomination is glaringly inappropriate. There may be some issues that I can't identify but I don't think that the main body of the article needs to be broadened much more (or can be) than it already is, at least in terms of the sections covered. But I'll let someone else be the judge of that. Yohan euan o4 (talk) 01:26, 23 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I'd have preferred this to go to a peer review before coming straight to FAC. The principal contributors to the article are User:Yohan euan o4, User:Theilert and me, with a smattering of help from WP:CYC and WP:OLY. I had never previously even nominated an article for GA, let alone FA, before, so while I'm hesitant to say this is FA-ready, I also don't think my opinion matters much on that point. Don't fall asleep zzzzzz 23:14, 22 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Nosleep, if you weren't consulted about the nomination, and feel it needs more preparation, I can withdraw it. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 03:35, 23 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]
No, please don't do it on my account. If others think it's ready, then I'd like to see it proceed. My lack of confidence is more a personal thing (I never think anything I write is any good) than a reflection of this particular article. Don't fall asleep zzzzzz 04:50, 23 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • I'm likely to support this when it's fixed. Some of the writing is of professional standard—a joy to read; but it can all be like that. Congratulations for getting this up to nomination so soon; it's all the more vivid a reading experience for that! I've copy-edited the lead, and the rest will need scrutiny. Particular issues I came across at the top were:
    • "Qualification for the race was restricted to five athletes per National Olympic Committee (NOC), providing that these athletes qualified through the Union Cycliste Internationale (UCI) rankings. The number of places allocated to each NOC was determined by the number of athletes representing that NOC, who fell within the qualification criteria." Um ... I'm totally confused; seems contradictory.
    • "for example, 70 riders from the UCI ProTour were granted places, whereas only three entered from the UCI Oceania Tour (the continental circuits are considered to be inferior to the ProTour)." Totally confused. Tony (talk) 06:57, 23 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]
I think I've addressed both of these issues. Some wires were being crossed, and some of that information was redundant whereas some of it wasn't being explained clearly. Yohan euan o4 (talk) 11:52, 23 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Comments - Now that this is staying here, I figure that it's safe to review, especially after the lead has been polished by our best copy-editor. He said "the rest will need scrutiny", so let's see what I can find,

  • Tony1 is a truly brillant copy-editor, but that doesn't mean he can catch every glitch. The first sentence: "The men's road race, a part of the cycling events at the 2008 Summer Olympics took place on August 9 at the Urban Road Cycling Course." I'm almost positive that there should be a comma after "2008 Summer Olympics". Of course, I can't find anything wrong with the rest of the lead.
  • The women's road race could be linked in the lead where mentioned, but this is certainly not mandatory.
  • Qualification: "The silver medalist from Athens, Portugal's Sergio Paulinho was said to not be in good enough shape to race." Doesn't feel like compelling prose. I'm not Tony1, but how about a variant of this: "Portugal's Sérgio (spot character) Paulinho, the silver medalist in the event (provide link to event) four years earlier in Athens, was said to be in insufficient shape to race." Don't like in and in, but you can refine this further. I just don't want to see "was said to be not in good enough shape".
  • "who would then compete in both in the road race and the time trial." This is tighter: "who later competed in the time trial." The road race part is redundant when combined with the prior text.
  • "Switzerland's Michael Albasini crashed in training and broke his collarbone the Tuesday before the race;" My suggestion: "While training (number of days) before the race, Switzerland's Michael Albasini crashed and broke his collarbone;".
  • Preview, Pollution issues: "was a possibility were the pollution levels too high." Perhaps this could be "if the pollution levels were too high." Also could be proper British English, which this American is still learning.
  • I'll give you an important tip on pleasing Tony1: He hates overlinking. Seeing links like oxygen and asthma drives him crazy. He also is not fond of country links.

I have to go now. More later. Giants2008 (17-14) 20:05, 23 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Nice remarks. I think I've addressed them all, please check [3]. I have deliberately left asthma linked, I find it relevant. Hey, my writing style is improving slowly, reading all these comments :-) --Tone 20:36, 23 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]
I think the asthma link is good too. Links to oxygen and countries don't really help the reader expand their knowledge on the issue at hand, but problems arising from asthma could be somewhat illuminating. I know the spelling is not a major issue, but I don't see the advantage in changing to British English (I guess I'm your opposite as I'm British and prefer American spelling). Yohan euan o4 (talk) 23:39, 23 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Okay, it took me long enough, but I'm back to review more. And please don't assume that I prefer British English; I'm still having trouble figuring it out.
  • "53 of the 143 cyclists..." Numerals shouldn't start sentences. This is the only time when a number over nine should be spelled out.
  • This 2004 Olympic link should probably go with the addition of one before. Didn't see that before. Also a duplicate UCI ProTour link.
  • Pre-race favorites: "along with highly-regarded countrymen..." No hyphen after -ly.
  • "Cadel Evans, runner-up in the Tour de France back-to-back years." I'd like to see this say which years.
  • 2008 Tour de France linked twice in section.
  • Course: "The Urban Road Cycling Course, in its entirety, was 102.6 km,..." A comma could be removed with "The Urban Road Cycling Course was 102.6 km in its entirety,..." Also, I think "The race starting line" should be "The race's starting line".
  • Italics for The Guardian, please.
  • Cadel Evans doesn't need another link here. "atmostphere" immediately after that.
  • Twice in this section I see "in to" and think they should be merged.
  • Race: Several hyphens could be added in the first paragraph.
  • Check logical punctuation of "brave,".
What exactly does this mean? Punctuation is always supposed to go inside quotes. That's second-grade level stuff. Don't fall asleep zzzzzz 06:01, 29 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • To quote our Manual of Style: "Punctuation marks are placed inside the quotation only if the sense of the punctuation is part of the quotation." A comma didn't come directly after brave in the BBC story, meaning the change was correct. Giants2008 (17-14) 01:48, 30 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Wow, that's....complete crap. But this isn't the time or place. Don't fall asleep zzzzzz 07:42, 30 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • I see a random thirteen mixed in. Rest of the number usage seems good.
That's it from me. Giants2008 (17-14) 23:50, 27 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks, I fixed all of these issues(diff). I couldn't for the life of me find two instances of "in to" being used though, which was vexing me a little. Yohan euan o4 (talk) 20:27, 28 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I'll raise a point of my own - is the heading "Final classification" clear enough, considering that what comes below it is, clearly, the finishing order and times for the race? I put that heading there originally, but only because it was also used in the 2004 article (I wrote at least the skeleton for most of the Olympic cycling articles, and for most of them I tended to copy previous styles). Is it perhaps preferrable to have something more obvious, like "Result," or is this heading OK? Don't fall asleep zzzzzz 00:36, 24 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Clear enough, I think. I'm in favor of some overlapping of policy from the Wikiprojects with a interest in the Olympic sports articles (WP:Olympic and relevant sport project). Yohan euan o4 (talk) 20:27, 28 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Comments

  • Please sort out the article's title sooner rather than later.
  • Is there no image that could go in the infobox? An image of the winner, or of the pelaton (sp?), or something like that?
  • "but no major problems were apparent in the men's road race" - just "the race" should be fine since it's evident what you're talking about. Also, use the full name in that ref's publisher.
  • "Qualification for the race was restricted to five athletes" - ... per nation?
  • I don't see the need to repeat ref 7 three times in the Pollution issues section; just move it to the end of the paragraph (IMO).
  • Only Australians complained about a lack of spectators? (last para of Course section.) I find that odd.

Hope these help. —Giggy 11:46, 24 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Most of these have been fixed, although you might want to look at the final paragraph (I re-arranged it to fit in complaints of others). NOC is usually preferred to nation in Olympic articles, and the UCI talks about places per NOC. Not all the NOCs present may have been considered nations i.e. there was a Hong Konger finishing second last. Yohan euan o4 (talk) 13:41, 24 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]
No free images of the race or course have come up. Applying fair use was mooted, and if you think that would be suitable (I didn't) then we could do that. For the race section -- 1. Is it worth splitting the first sentence in to two? 2. Should it be "kilometers" once and "km" thereafter, or can that be flexible? 3. Are redlinks to be avoided? Yohan euan o4 (talk) 22:48, 24 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]
1) I think it's OK now. 2) I don't think it matters as long as you're consistent. 3) Depends on how notable the thing you're linking to is.
Looking pretty good otherwise. —Giggy 07:22, 25 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]
All redlinks are people notable under WP:ATHLETE. I'm trying to make articles for them all. SeveroTC 22:45, 25 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment I've been away for awhile, so I may have missed lots in the ever-morphing behemoth that is MOS. I noticed that the units in the body of text didn't have any conversions from metric. I also noticed that non-breaking spaces didn't seem to be used. BuddingJournalist 09:38, 28 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]
The speed and the length are in imperial units in the box. That suffies, IMO. And what do you mean with non-breaking spaces? --Tone 10:03, 28 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Found the link: Wikipedia:Manual_of_Style#Non-breaking_spaces. It's rather tedious though after-the-fact. I think someone might have a script that can automatically do it. Some of the other more knowledgeable editors may know. BuddingJournalist 10:29, 28 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Non-breaking spaces used throughout now, and a conversion to the full length is in the lede. Do conversions need to be provided throughout? Also, I linked the first example of each unit, does this need to be done (the MoS doesn't seem to be overly clear)? SeveroTC 14:00, 28 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Comments just a few things I noticed

  • WP:BOLDTITLE, don't wikilink the bold text in the opening sentence
  • I'd prefer to see the bolding together, too, instead of separated by plain and linked text, so something like "The 2008 Summer Olympics men's road race, a part of the cycling events..."
  • Is there a link for "Beijing metropolitan area"?
  • "entered a decisive seven loops" singular/plural?
  • MOS:LINK, two links next to each other making them appear to be one link: 2008 Tour de France points classification

Matthewedwards (talk • contribs • email) 22:03, 29 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I thought, seeing as this is sub-article, and most people will access it from the Olympics pages (and the fact that the title alerts readers to it being an Olympic event), that "men's road race" could remain emboldened without the "2008 Summer Olympics". No link for Beijing metropolitan area, which is something I looked for near the beginning. Possible options for the lead:
That works for me. Matthewedwards (talk • contribs • email) 02:45, 30 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • the route entered a decisive circuit encompassing seven loops on a 23.8 km section up and down the Badaling Pass
  • the route entered seven loops on a 23.8 km circuit up and down the Badaling Pass
Feel I'm becoming more rather than less tentative here. Yohan euan o4 (talk) 01:12, 30 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]
I prefer the first option. Matthewedwards (talk • contribs • email) 02:45, 30 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Support All my concerns were addressed. Everything looks okay. Matthewedwards (talk • contribs • email) 18:45, 4 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Support - All my concerns were addressed above. One more note: All printed reference publishers should be shown in italics. Looks good to me otherwise. Giants2008 (17-14) 01:48, 30 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]

  • Support; all my above concerns addressed. —Giggy 07:29, 30 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]


Question - Must we wikilink the first instance of something? I notice "2008 Tour de France points classification," descriptive of Freire, was changed to be one wikilink rather than two. If the two links situation shouldn't be, fine, but I really think points classification ought to be its own link, since 2008 Tour de France#Points classification simply points to a chart showing the result for that year and isn't in any way explanatory. Can we wikilink points classification here, and then the second instance of 2008 Tour de France later in the paragraph (or, maybe, neither instance, if "overlinking" is such a problem)? Don't fall asleep zzzzzz 16:23, 30 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Okay, here are my ideas (in addition to yours)
  • Three time world champion [a greater achievement(?), if not as recent] and winner of the points classification at the 2008 Tour de France
The road race world championship typically favors a sprinter like Freire. It's an achievement, of course, but I'd say it's on par with the points classification championship. Don't fall asleep zzzzzz 01:57, 31 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • Only link points classification, don't link to 2008 TdF further down; consider the link in "Qualification" to be the first and only required one.
I'm going to go with this. Seems best. Don't fall asleep zzzzzz 01:57, 31 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • Linking later on sounds good, but I'm not sure if it'll seem very logical to someone browsing; not sure either if it's allowed either. Yohan euan o4 (talk) 00:51, 31 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]


Any status update on this? Don't fall asleep zzzzzz 08:20, 3 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Support Comments by karanacs. Overall I found this a very well-written article that was pretty accessible for people like me who rarely follow cycling. A few suggested changes:

  • I see above that you've started converting measurements, but all measurements in km (and degrees celsius) should be converted into miles as well. The subsequent uses of them do not need to have wikilinked units
  • I think that the first paragraph of Qualifications may need to be reorganized a bit. Perhaps it would be better to mention up front (after the first sentence) that the Pro Tour is considered a higher class than the others, and then use what is now the last sentence (Any NOC unable to fill its quota...) as the next sentece. After that, talk about how many athletes came from each of the tours.
  • I assume this is a grammar mistake but since I am unfamiliar with the terminology for this sport I could be wrong " increased its speed in order to bringing them back"

Karanacs (talk) 17:51, 3 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I think that all of these have been fixed by Severo, bar one suggestion of his I took up. Thanks again... Yohan euan o4 (talk) 23:17, 3 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Yes I completed most of this comment (unless anyone spots any conversions I missed), not sure the qualification first paragraph is quite right yet, but it's looking better. SeveroTC 13:20, 4 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.
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