Ploversegg

Linear B corpus

I saw your edit note and just wanted to say you weren't getting in the way at all by adding the Tiryns info! Thanks for the help :) (also I'm new to editing with an account, so if I've done wrong by writing you here, or misformatted, please let me know!) infointheair 6:12, 5 May 2022 (PST)

Its totally cool. Not in an everyday twitter like way but sure when it makes sense. Just last week an experienced editor did just that. Good to see you are helping. The various Minoan script articles (Linear A, Minoan Hieroglyphics, etc) had a lot of issues. I poked them somewhat but they definitely need more work. :-) Ploversegg (talk) 13:50, 5 May 2022 (UTC)

Carpet bombing cn tags

I don't normally do drive-by tagging but if you look at the recent history of the article, we've had a problem with a new editor citing his own self-published original research. It was relatively easy to put a stop to that but it was less easy to defend existing uncited material in the article. So it had to be explicitly recognised as unsatisfactory, in the interest of fairness. --John Maynard Friedman (talk) 16:51, 28 April 2022 (UTC)

I totally get it given the recent edits.Ploversegg (talk) 17:44, 28 April 2022 (UTC)

Thank you!

Just wanted to express appreciation for your work on Kassites. That's an article I always intended to get around to and somehow never did. Cheers. Dumuzid (talk) 14:49, 16 June 2022 (UTC)

You are welcome. Its a big hairball! I've gotten most of the low hanging fruit and will pause now to read some papers, and the book "Babylonia under the Sealand and Kassite Dynasties" so effort will slow for a bit. And I suspect the sub articles like Kassite deities, Kassite language, and Kassite art need work. To say nothing of Kudurru which is way weak. PS When I'm done feel free to fix anything I screw up.  :-)Ploversegg (talk) 14:55, 16 June 2022 (UTC)

OK, I was distracted by the bright shiny object of kudurru which was basically a stub and sucked me into reading a number of interesting papers and rewriting the article. I am better now. Back to Kassites.Ploversegg (talk) 00:12, 21 June 2022 (UTC)

Kurigalzu, Nin-Nibru and Nin-Eanna

I think the optimal place for the information you added to the Kassite deities article would instead be the page of the ruler in mention, or perhaps Kassite art. No offense meant with the undo, the information is obviously credible, I just want to avoid the article becoming too vague again, since it used to be a dumping ground for (mostly very vintage, ie. 19th century; someone seems to be adding it back to it now, annoyingly) information about symbols on kudurru rather than strictly on the poorly understood Kassite pantheon in the strict sense (ie. pantheon of speakers of the Kassite language, not the pantheon of Mesopotamia in the Kassite/Middle Babylonian periods). On a related note, great work on the Kassite article itself, I'm particularly glad to see the baffling paragraphs about KAssites being a "Hurrian tribe" finally gone.HaniwaEnthusiast (talk) 21:49, 21 June 2022 (UTC)

Given the criteria it is a perfectly reasonable undo. I noted the recent edit problems you've been having. Agreed on the whole kudurru symbol thing. I was careful to keep that out when I rewrote that article. Now, back to work on the main Kassite article. I plan to be bold and merge Kassite Art into the main article. Its like 50% overlap and no one has edited it since 2013 :-) Ploversegg (talk) 22:10, 21 June 2022 (UTC)

Narundi

Thank you for attempting to correct my typo "errouneously". However, the identification of the goddess statue as Narundi is wrong because the inscription on the statue itself explicitly identifies her as Peltikalim, an Elamite form of Akkadian Belat-ekallim, "Lady of the Palace" a well-known byname of Innana/Ishtar, see Desset et al. (forthcoming). Awanir (talk) 00:46, 5 July 2022 (UTC)

That is fine, and its not overly important but several sources including "Pittman, Holly. "The “Jeweler’s” Seal from Susa and Art of Awan". Leaving No Stones Unturned: Essays on the Ancient Near East and Egypt in Honor of Donald P. Hansen, edited by Erica Ehrenberg, University Park, USA: Penn State University Press, 2021, pp. 211-236" and "P. O. Harper, J. Aruz, and F. Tallon(eds.), The Royal City of Susa: Ancient Near Eastern Treasures in the Louvre (New York: MetropolitanMuseum of Art, 1992), pp. 90–91" and of course the Louvre seem to feel it is narundi. If you are certain that is fine though. I look forward to reading the forthcoming Desset.Ploversegg (talk) 01:15, 5 July 2022 (UTC)

Thank you for your reply. If I remember correctly the sources you cited based their identification of Narundi/Narunte/Narute on Hinz's conjectural suggested decipherment. I am pretty certain of the identification of Peltikalim as it is stated in the Linear Elamite inscription on the statue itself. The complete re-edition of the Linear Elamite text in Desset et al. (forthcoming) will conclusively demonstrate the identification as Peltikalim. Awanir (talk) 01:41, 5 July 2022 (UTC)

Thanks. Yeah, I was wondering what the new work would do to some of the already existing translations. Should be interesting. Have to remember to change the narundi wiki article and the commons file tags when that happens. I'm not familiar with that particular aspect of Istar, she has so many. Oh ... its the equivalent of Ninegal. Now I know who you're talking about.Ploversegg (talk) 02:07, 5 July 2022 (UTC)

Yes, many existing translations will have to be drastically changed in view of the new information provided by the decipherment of LE. The forthcoming work will include, among other things, complete new editions of all of the previously known LE inscriptions plus a few hitherto unpublished ones, in addition to re-editions of some related Cuneiform Elamite inscriptions. You are absolutely correct Ninegala (Sumerian) = Belat-ekallim (Akkadian), she was probably introduced at Susa during the Sargonic period and is well attested there particularly during the Sukkalmah period (Steve 1967, 87). Let us also note that the iconography of the statue also supports the new identification. Awanir (talk) 03:01, 5 July 2022 (UTC)

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Seha River Land

Hey, I don't remember if we've crossed paths before but your edits pop up in my Watchlist from time to time and I'm a big fan :) I wanted to let you know that I've created an article on the Seha River Land and added some text to Kaymakçı about relevant excavations there. I'm not an expert in this area, so I wanted to bring these articles to your attention in case you had anything to add (or anything to fix!). Botterweg14 (talk) 18:54, 30 October 2022 (UTC)

I have had to pick my spots in recent years with things Anatolian since so much stuff archaeological is now written in Turkish, no doubt a fine language but one I do not read. As it happens, there is some Kaymakçı stuff to be read that I actually can read. I'll give it a look.Ploversegg (talk) 23:19, 30 October 2022 (UTC)

Thanks! I look forward to learning more about the site! Botterweg14 (talk) 15:45, 31 October 2022 (UTC)

Deletion of my answer to you

In talk section of Minoan eruption, the other editor deleted my following answer to you:

Yes @Ploversegg::, that section needs a more accurate explanation of the current achievements, and not only a list of past studies. I see in these two recent years (2021-2022), scholarship is finding a consensus, though in a wide range, specially among independent scholars. Some other people are only interested to raise or lower the chronology against recent discoveries. You're also right by saying that some issues like this only attract polemicists who do not contribute but only create obstacles.--Carlos Eduardo Aramayo B. (talk) 17:27, 18 November 2022 (UTC).

Thanks

Thanks for the Shar-kali-sharri temple building addition in the Anunnitum article, I somehow forgot about it myself despite covering the same inscription in the Ilaba article. I moved it with the other attestations from the same period, hope you don't mind - seemed optimal to me to keep stuff vaguely chronologically arranged when it comes to construction projects, dedications etc. HaniwaEnthusiast (talk) 13:24, 29 January 2023 (UTC)

@HaniwaEnthusiast: In retrospect, thats where I should have put it in the first place. :-)

Religious stuff is not my strong suit but I have noticed something in the last year, while completely redoing the Kassites, Mitanni (with someone else), Sealand, and Gutians, is that we actually "know" almost nothing about their religions. Mostly a lot of guesswork. Part of the problem is that as soon as one of these groups rose to power they immediately latched on to the Mesopotamian gods, maybe to gain legitimacy or respectability. Even the first king of the Gutians, who people thing of as unwashed savages, was all over it Gutian rule in Mesopotamia#Religion. I don't doubt there is a fancy religion word for that effect.:-)Ploversegg (talk) 16:02, 29 January 2023 (UTC)

Well, there is a "divine seven of Gutium" in An = Anum but I seriously doubt its authenticity, given the dating. Plus a list of random deity names tells us nothing about theology, let alone practice. If that was all that's needed, Kassite religion would be much less of a mystery - as is, I think there is less to say about it than about a single festival in Emar (tbf, the zukru is complex enough to have full monographs devoted to it... but still).

Iirc Gernot Wilhelm suggested at some point that in Mitanni's case we might be dealing with a typical Upper Mesopotamian Hurrian milieu, like in Arrapha, and it's just the tradition of regnal names that got borrowed from elsewhere, which is not an an universal explanation, but beats the alternatives I'd say. And it explains why there's little to no evidence for any additions to the pantheon which stand out in the way Shuqamuna, Shumaliya or Harbe do in Kassite period sources. While every armchair linguist under the sun has latched to that single attestation of Indra and co. in a treaty, it does not appear he's present in any other context, deities associated with major Mitanni sites are all Hurrian, what little textual evidence of the kings' personal devotion also seems focused on Teshub and Shaushka, and so on.

I think Sealand is kind of in a different category, on one hand it's sound to assume we're probably just dealing with a slightly outlandish example of a typical late OB dynasty, on the other the way most of the known texts came into light make unusually few references to religious activity (I think I've seen this pointed out in a review of Boivin's recent Sealand monograph)... I do not think the fact they come from illicit digs helps. HaniwaEnthusiast (talk) 07:18, 30 January 2023 (UTC)

Question about proposed identification of Irridu and Kumme

Hi again, since you are well versed in archeological sites in Syria and Iraq, do you by any chance know any publications which would discuss Tell Bandar Han, especially wrt Mitanni (or more broadly - Hurrian in general) presence (or lack of it)? I'm currently preparing a much needed overhaul of the Teshub article (the image isn't even the right god right now, not to mention the weird absence of the mention of any non-Hittite sites) and stumbled upon this site in Daniel Schwemer's Wettergottgestalten monograph, where he suggests it might be Irridu, which is reasonably well attested as a cult center of this god in textual sources, and I was curious if it's just his loose suggestion or an actually accepted identification.

On a semi-related note - have you ever heard of any proposals for the location of Kumme other than the two options discussed here by Karen Radner, ie. Zakho and Beytüşşebap? I wanted to make sure I am not missing any major ones as I plan to write an article on this city because of the aforementioned Teshub project and because I've noticed someone long ago incorrectly made its name a redirect to Kummanni (the latter article does say Kumme is not the same city, as it should, but it also incorrectly asserts Kummiya is Kummanni rather than Kumme, citing a source which correctly states the opposite - pretty dreadful!). HaniwaEnthusiast (talk) 12:05, 3 March 2023 (UTC)

Well, Bandar Han is one of those Syrian sites I ignored because the sources are all in German which my 1 semester of undergrad German failed me long ago.:-) As you can see in "Llop-Raduà, Jaume. "The Development of the Middle Assyrian Provinces" Altorientalische Forschungen, vol. 39, no. 1, 2012, pp. 87-111. https://doi-org.wikipedialibrary.idm.oclc.org/10.1524/aofo.2012.0007" all Bandar leads to German. So no idea. I am assuming you are chitted for wikipedialibrary as they even let ME use it. And really, I did half the heavy lifting for the Mitanni article rebuild but Carlos Eduardo Aramayo B. is more up on the kind of detail you bring up.

As for Kumme, all I know about it is that it is caught in that whole indo-european, armenian, caucausus, hurrian, narrative which I have run into a few times ie [1]. Oh, and the options for Kumme seem to be "general area of Zakho" from Postgate vs east Habur area. Neither theory appears to include an actuall Location vs a region. See "Astour, Michael C.. "A Reconstruction of the History of Ebla (Part 2)". Eblaitica: Essays on the Ebla Archives and Eblaite Language, Volume 4, edited by Cyrus H. Gordon and Gary A. Rendsburg, University Park, USA: Penn State University Press, 2002, pp. 57-196. https://doi-org.wikipedialibrary.idm.oclc.org/10.1515/9781575065328-005" and "Reade, Julian. “STUDIES IN ASSYRIAN GEOGRAPHY (Suite).” Revue d’Assyriologie et d’archéologie Orientale, vol. 72, no. 2, 1978, pp. 157–80. JSTOR, http://www.jstor.org/stable/23282225".Ploversegg (talk) 15:07, 3 March 2023 (UTC)

Sorry about the late reply, had a busy period irl and didn't do much when it comes to wikipedia. I just finished working on Kumme. Sadly, despite the sources you have recommended I think I will not attempt to do anything with Bandar Han for now due to time constraints.

I will admit I avoid the Indo-European ventures related to Hurrians, especially since many of them just ignore the field isn't in the 1930s anymore. Too much speculation, not enough material evidence for my liking. Plus I am under the impression many researchers ignore that most Hurrian material can and should be interpreted first and foremost alongside other participants in the "cuneiform sphere" so to speak. HaniwaEnthusiast (talk) 21:31, 20 March 2023 (UTC)

Regarding lost cities - Enegi

Do you think an article about Enegi(r) would make sense, as far as lost cities in Iraq go? As far as I can tell, in addition to a ton of textual references to the city, there is a recent identification proposal - Abu Tbeirah near Ur, right now iirc covered in some capacity in the Ur article - though the authors behind this proposal do not seem certain and suggest multiple alternatives like Kiabrig, Gishbanda, and some even more ephemeral settlements (for clarity, unless identification with AT is confirmed I do not think any of these warrant articles rn), see here, pages 468-473. As far as I can tell, there's actually more material to use than in the case of Karkar, and I did manage to pull that one off. HaniwaEnthusiast (talk) 16:49, 5 July 2023 (UTC)

1) Enegi not ringing a bell but I'll take a look. :-) 2) I actually put in the TAB section of the Ur article so THAT at least I have heard of. 3) Karkar ... nice article, much more posh then the ones I do. :-) I will report back, after a quick look to see if I need to add anything to the TAL section and then look up enegi.Ploversegg (talk) 18:55, 5 July 2023 (UTC)

@HaniwaEnthusiast: A side question. Is Tell Gidr in the Karkar article, which I haven't heard of, the same as Tell Jidr, which I have heard of? Hm, it was here - [2]Marchetti, Nicolò, and Federico Zaina, "Rediscovering the Heartland of Cities", Near Eastern Archaeology 83, pp. 146-157, 2020Ploversegg (talk) 19:21, 5 July 2023 (UTC)

Most of the important Enegi info is in the pdf I linked, the authors stress it has the most attestations in texts out of all settlements close to Ur, plus the city god was reasonably important.

As for Jidr/Gidr - as far as I can tell this is the same site, the dates of surveys match what I read; I will update the article with this info soon-ish. HaniwaEnthusiast (talk) 20:23, 5 July 2023 (UTC)

@HaniwaEnthusiast:I was thinking about tucking a small section on Tell Jidr in the Karkar article in the same way that I tucked one for Abu Tbeirah into the Ur article, as a placeholder until there is enough for a standalone article (or an id is firmly made). You created the Karkar article so I thought I would check with you first.Ploversegg (talk) 16:42, 16 August 2023 (UTC)

@HaniwaEnthusiast:Never mind I changed my mind. Karkar was WAY too neat and polished to drop this into so instead I tucked it into the nearby site of Bad-tibara. The ptr is Bad-tibira#Tell Jidr (Tall Ǧidr) in case you are ever curious. If the name is confirmed or someone actually excavates it someday I will either move it or turn it into an article. Wikipedia is all down on creating stubs these days.Ploversegg (talk) 19:06, 18 August 2023 (UTC)

Sorry about the late response. I think that's a good choice for now; it does not seem there is enough written on the site itself to warrant a page yet so it's best to wait for excavations indeed (hopefully that'll happen at some point). HaniwaEnthusiast (talk) 09:48, 20 August 2023 (UTC)

In general I trust literary compositions about as far as I can throw them but fusing a number of them together like that does earn points. Clearly Enegir is somewhere in the vicinity of Ur. There was even a seal found at Ur saying "Shulgi, king of Ur, king of Enegir ..." if we believe Hallo that IM^ki is Enegir. Frayne says "The ancient city of Enegir which we have suggested gave rise to the term ki-en-gi “Land (around) Ki en gi(r)” is possibly located at modern Masar about 25 km north-northwest of modern Al-Muqayyir, ancient Ur" but gives no src support for that. Now that I think about it, Tell Khaiber, which I did the article for, is 19km NW of Ur, so I am going to doubt Frayne on this one. Anyway, it does seem to have been a notable cult site back in ED/UrIII dats so I would say it is worth an article though I personally be likely to say "proposed to be at Abu Tbeirah" vs actually being there.Ploversegg (talk) 22:18, 5 July 2023 (UTC)

According to Edzard the evidence for IM being Enegi(r) comes from a lexical list which has 3 values listed for it (other two being Karkar which is pretty clearly the main IM place, plus insignificant Muru) and from Old Babylonian Larsa (I presume the supposed prebend texts, but I found no studies dealing with that so far). The newest soruce to mention it limits the use of IM for Enegi to OB times.

I did as you suggested, and listed the 4 other options the excavators mention plus both the arguments for and against they offer, plus the other earlier proposals I found. Frayne's is weird but I think the weakest one has to be Diqdiqah seeing as its right next to Ur (2 km away from the ziggurat), vs. all the other proposals being 10-30 km away. I feel like textual sources would reflect them being so close.

For the time being this propobably concludes my "adventure" with lost cities since I covered all 3 I wanted to (Kumme, Karkar, Enegi; Sag(g)artum seems like it was a big deal politically but there isn't much research), I do plan to try to contribute to more archeology-ariented articles in the future though, since the less speculative nature of the sources is nice. I think Emar could use expansion in particular, even just the full story of the excavations would be fun to cover (and then there is the obvious issue with weird "consort" talk that's not even correct going by the text corpus), but I won't promise anything for now since I still have other plans for july/august editing. HaniwaEnthusiast (talk) 09:35, 10 July 2023 (UTC)

@HaniwaEnthusiast:Cool! I keep encountering new obscure gods in my travels. While unstarting Haft Tepe (I call it the Elamite Amarna) I saw that this king had created a large funerary complex to "Kirwashir (Kirmasir)". (I enjoyed reading the paper "E. Reiner, "Inscription from a Royal Elamite Tomb", Archiv für Orientforschung, vol. 24, pp. 87–102, 1973") There must be a 1000 obscure gods like that. Currently doing a small upgrade of the lost city of Lagaba with yet another version of Istar. At least that one I have heard of. :-) Oh, agreed on Emar. Things Syrian are a mess due to the civil war or whatever they are calling it. Update- yeah it appears there is a lot available on Emar not reflected in the article, at least based on a skim of "Viano, Maurizio. "1 Introduction". Debt and Indebtedness at Emar, Berlin, Boston: De Gruyter, 2023, pp. 1-36. https://doi-org.wikipedialibrary.idm.oclc.org/10.1515/9781501515309-001".Ploversegg (talk) 16:33, 10 July 2023 (UTC)

I have a lot of Emar literature thankfully, so it should be doable at some point. And yeah, that is probably what the core problem is, though I will note even Ugarit article is oddly bare bones, and I do not think that can be blamed on recent armed conflicts. Noticed recently how many wiki articles call Ugarit "Phoenician" which is just dreadful, but this will be a lot of work to fix sadly, much more than Emar which just doesn't seem to attract dubious online attention.

I grabbed some papers on Haft Tepe because it seems my weird not-quite-Elamite fave Ishmekarab (a Mesopotamian import more popular in Elam than at home) was a big deal locally, but haven't read much on it yet, you certainly make it sound like a cool site to research though.

Also yeah, each site has a god like that I feel, sometimes multiple. I like the running-themed local god from Tell al-Dhiba'i, Lasimu or something. I do not think most of them will ever warrant wiki pages, sadly, but they are fun to read about. HaniwaEnthusiast (talk) 20:39, 10 July 2023 (UTC)

minor thing

hey, didn't mean to come off as catty with that word-use, i suppose in the moment i thought 'so-called' might just read as literal, :) thanks for the ce Remsense (talk) 18:19, 25 September 2023 (UTC)

No sweat. You just happened to come in after a discussion I had about about people calling the Proto-Elamite Naram-Sin text the "so-called Treaty of Naram-Sin" so I was thinking about it. I was overly harsh.Ploversegg (talk) 18:36, 25 September 2023 (UTC)

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	Your contributions to Wikipedia's coverage of archaeology-related topics are appreciated! BuySomeApples (talk) 02:12, 17 January 2024 (UTC)

Talk:Hattusa

Hello, I have reassessed this as C. A class requires two impartial reviews. Schierbecker (talk) 07:23, 17 January 2024 (UTC)

Thanks. Yeah I normally never rate stuff as A on principle but it was a B and I fixed it up so then just automatically bumped the current rating by one.Ploversegg (talk) 14:18, 17 January 2024 (UTC)

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Minoan glyph

Do you know what the first symbol on top is meant to represent? https://imgur.com/5gyKcHC 𐀽 might be the same thing, za or ze? Temerarius (talk) 23:23, 11 February 2024 (UTC)

No. Difficult to say. Granted my head is full of Cypro-Minoan Script at the moment and after a bit all these squiggles start to look alike.:-) Ploversegg (talk) 23:37, 11 February 2024 (UTC)

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Logosyllabic

I saw your edit summary on Linear A. As you can see, I recently redirected Logosyllabic → Logogram. Was this a poor choice on my part? Remsense诉 17:45, 24 February 2024 (UTC)

I never thought of logosyllabic as logographic but I suppose technically it is. The needed information does appear to be in the logogram article. I might be tempted to make logosyllabic (and Logoconsonantal) a section header, that way you could redirect logosyllabic to logogram#whatever. Then if they really wanted to get down into the weeds they could look at the whole logogram article while they are there. Thanks.Ploversegg (talk) 18:05, 24 February 2024 (UTC)

Oh, please do. That article is on my bucket list. Remsense诉 19:05, 24 February 2024 (UTC)

Ok, forgot to say that I looked for "Logo-syllabic" which is spelling I am used to, which got me into trouble. I should have been more creative and looked for variations. :-) Ploversegg (talk) 19:20, 24 February 2024 (UTC)

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