Mandruss

SEMI-RETIRED

This user is no longer very active on Wikipedia.

Retirement

I've just seen your retirement on my watchlist. Whatever this is, I hope it is most temporary, as Wikipedia would be less without you. Onetwothreeip (talk) 23:10, 22 January 2021 (UTC)

Temporary retirements demonstrate one of two things: insincerity, or a shortage of self-awareness and self-discipline. Knowing that my first retirement would be my last, I was careful not to make the commitment without thorough consideration. It's done, and I don't care to discuss the reasons. Best wishes to those who remain. ―Mandruss ☎ 23:36, 22 January 2021 (UTC)

@Mandruss: Well, I've enjoyed working with you those times our paths have crossed. Good luck to you, sir! You will be missed. — UncleBubba ^{( T @ C )} 23:44, 22 January 2021 (UTC)

I’m sorry to see you go. Thank you for your numerous contributions, and take care. starship.paint (exalt) 03:39, 23 January 2021 (UTC)

• @Mandruss: even before getting introduced I see you retiring. Any ways wish you nice offline life. Bookku (talk) 07:55, 23 January 2021 (UTC)

Best wishes to you, and thank you for your service. Onetwothreeip (talk) 08:23, 24 January 2021 (UTC)

• Damn - Donald Trump needs you now more than ever. Sorry to see you go, and I do wish you'd reconsider. (Michael Jordan did and didn't regret it.) Space4Time3Continuum2x (talk) 20:15, 7 February 2021 (UTC)

Hey, I just saw this. I'm really sorry to see you go. I know you have already said you will not reconsider and that you are gone for good, but please know that you are always welcome back if for some reason you change your mind. In the few years that I have worked with you, I haven't always agreed with your stance or position in arguments, but I've always known that you were trying your best to write a good quality article. Best of luck in your future endavours, Chief Magistrate. Mgasparin (talk) 03:27, 11 February 2021 (UTC)

Precious anniversary

Precious

Three years!

miss you --Gerda Arendt (talk) 06:12, 19 April 2021 (UTC)

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Happy First Edit Day!

Happy First Edit Day, Mandruss, from the Wikipedia Birthday Committee! Have a great day! Comr Melody Idoghor (talk) 08:07, 26 May 2022 (UTC)

Precious anniversary

Precious

Five years!

--Gerda Arendt (talk) 06:25, 19 April 2023 (UTC)

A beer for you!

Mandruss! Good to see you back! Cheers, and how are you? starship.paint (exalt) 11:55, 24 May 2023 (UTC)

@Starship.paint: Oh hi there. Well I allowed myself to get sucked into one big process-related issue at Trump; otherwise I'm still 99%-retired. This morning I noticed that I was feeling unusually on edge, a little agitated, not quite myself, and I couldn't identify the reason. Then it occurred to me that I've been back at Trump for almost a month. And I haven't even gotten involved in the more stressful, content-related stuff going on there. You're keeping your sanity, I take it?

Thanks for the beer, but I need something else and I can't drink the hard stuff. Recreational weed is legal in my state and a number of others, so maybe Wikipedia is almost ready for the option to send some Mary Jane. A doobie for you! ―Mandruss ☎ 12:26, 24 May 2023 (UTC)

Oh, I'm quite sane. I actually took a break from Trump for some time. Not that I was stressed over the article or its editors, just that (a) I got busy, (b) Trump lost and I thought (wrongly) that he was yesterday's news. I'm still skipping a lot of Trump stuff, essentially due to motivation, really. I just can't be bothered or interested. I haven't even read most of the talk page. Yeah the Carroll stuff does interest me, but again I got busy, so I've moved on, and let the pieces fall where they may. If I may suggest, perhaps you should edit something you are actually interested in; that's what I do. Anyway, thanks for the doobie, I shall magically turn it into water, as my own country is notorious for not tolerating Mary Jane, in fact last month there was a kingpin executed over it. But what refreshing water this is - just a little smoky, it seems. starship.paint (exalt) 15:53, 24 May 2023 (UTC)

Mary Jane? Too much time on the Trump article, and you'll need something stronger. Perhaps Wikipedia can open an opium den. O3000, Ret. (talk) 16:20, 24 May 2023 (UTC)

File:Darrell Brooks mugshot 2021-11-23.jpg listed for discussion

A file that you uploaded or altered, File:Darrell Brooks mugshot 2021-11-23.jpg, has been listed at Wikipedia:Files for discussion. Please see the discussion to see why it has been listed (you may have to search for the title of the image to find its entry). Feel free to add your opinion on the matter below the nomination. Thank you. Bruxton (talk) 02:37, 28 May 2023 (UTC)

Revert on Donald Trump

It's hardly trivia when it shows how much of a habitual liar he is. But thanks for the revert. "Sheesh", yourself! conman33 (. . .talk) 01:29, 26 August 2023 (UTC)

I'd posit Wikipedia doesn't need yet another example of what a habitual liar he is,and certainly not in that article. The article is already way too long, largely due to inclusion of things that are more significant than height/weight inconsistencies but that don't need to be in the top-level bio. ―Mandruss ☎ 01:35, 26 August 2023 (UTC)

Archive

I see you archived my conversation on the Donald Trump page. Not sure what that means. GamerKlim9716 (talk) 02:07, 26 August 2023 (UTC)

Which conversation was that? I can't find that archival in the page history. ―Mandruss ☎ 02:20, 26 August 2023 (UTC)

Or closed in. Not sure about the terms. It was criminal status GamerKlim9716 (talk) 02:44, 26 August 2023 (UTC)

Oh right. That was a closure, not an archival, notwithstanding the misleading names of the templates you use to accomplish it (archive top and archive bottom). Anyway I can't explain it any better than I did in my closure statement. When there's clearly no point in further discussion, we try to close the thread so it can be archived after 24 hours per consensus #13. That keeps the table of contents at a minimum so editors can focus on things that do need discussion. It also discourages further comments from editors who don't know any better. We don't imply criminality before conviction, period. ―Mandruss ☎ 02:52, 26 August 2023 (UTC)

I'm embarrassed to say I don't get the difference between all of these legal terms "indictment, arraigned, arrested, prosecuted, etc". So I thought because he had a mug shot and was arrested he's considered guilty. I appreciate you correcting me. GamerKlim9716 (talk) 02:59, 26 August 2023 (UTC)

Surely you've heard the phrase "innocent until proven guilty"? An arrest proves nothing except that prosecutors believe there's a good chance a jury will convict him. The trial has yet to begin. His lawyers might negotiate a plea deal before it does, in which case he would plead guilty to some of the charges in return for a lighter sentence. ―Mandruss ☎ 03:06, 26 August 2023 (UTC)

Meta reply to PhotogenicScientist

how are the Accords not notable enough to include? If you're asking me specifically, I haven't taken a position and don't intend to. I use my semi-retirement as an excuse, but in truth I never got much into such political-content issues anyway. I've had this on my user page since 2018:

The product of 17 years of self-selected self-governance, Wikipedia PAGs are a tangled labyrinth of watered-down and self-contradictory principles. For any proposition A, A and !A can usually be argued with equal PAG support. That renders PAGs useless as a guide. So-called policy-based discussions are in reality nothing more than editor viewpoints, and might as well be democratic voting. We are suffering from mass self-delusion, my friends.

The closer here will (maybe) exclude editors who make no policy claim at all; then they will count votes. They won't attempt to weigh the different policy claims, as (1) that would be very difficult and would require a ton of experience to do well, (2) it would inject their own personal biases, and (3) a close against the majority would almost certainly invite a contentious and time-consuming close review. That's how virtually all closed discussions go. The system has a built-in assumption that most editors will apply policy correctly and objectively, and that's just not the case. Most editors will apply policy to support their political viewpoints. <my opinion>Some lack the self-awareness to know they're doing that, and some others feel that the issues at stake are more important than Wikipedia principles (while giving them lip service for the sake of appearances).</my opinion> (Re the fall of democracy as we know it, I'm not sure I disagree with the latter group; "It's only Wikipedia" is my mantra; but I opted to largely abstain rather than go that route. On the subject of Trump, I doubt Wikipedia changes many minds; I think we overestimate its impact and I've yet to see hard data to the contrary. In the end, this is a stimulating intellectual exercise, more satisfying than social media, not much more.)

The solution? An unbiased, impassive, really smart AI "editor", and good luck with that. Apart from the technical challenges, it would render all human editors mere copy editors, and that's no fun. And we would have to make the PAGs comprehensible to the AI "editor"; even with a hundred years of advancement in AI, it could never be made smart enough to comprehend them as currently written. Software doesn't like vagueness, contradictions, and value judgments, and it would immediately throw up its hands and resign. I didn't say it's a practical solution. Maybe quantum computing can help? I dunno, but that would be decades away at best. I don't know about you, but I'll be decomposing like Beethoven by then.

Meta enough yet? ―Mandruss ☎ 03:44, 7 December 2023 (UTC)

Thick forest

It's 'sometimes' difficult to remember, considering the length of the entire discussion. I don't envy the editor who attempts to close the RFC on the former US president's rhetoric. GoodDay (talk) 22:13, 9 December 2023 (UTC)

please read what I write very carefully

so we do not digress into idiotic squabbles that disrupt Talk. thank you soibangla (talk) 01:40, 12 December 2023 (UTC)

I always read carefully. You don't always make yourself perfectly clear. For example, you said I am not arguing against a sub-article. It would've been clearer to say I am not categorically opposed to a sub-article. [optional elaboration] I can't read your mind or anybody else's. Clear communication requires equal quality in both the receiver and the transmitter. ―Mandruss ☎ 01:46, 12 December 2023 (UTC)

I have never argued against a sub-article, but you insisted I have. it is false. I seek no conflict with you and I ask you demonstrate reciprocity. that's all I got here soibangla (talk) 01:50, 12 December 2023 (UTC)

Look, as I tried to say above, argued against a sub-article had multiple possible interpretations. You chose one, I chose the other (and you put zero effort into trying to understand how I might have chosen the other in good faith). The solution: (Try harder to) use language that has only one possible interpretation. If you are misunderstood, clarify your language with AGF and there will be no "conflict". ―Mandruss ☎ 01:59, 12 December 2023 (UTC)

after stating you had been up 30 hours, you suggested I was drunk

you keep goin' with that soibangla (talk) 02:44, 12 December 2023 (UTC)

Oh, so now we're resurrecting past conflicts. When I was 8, my sister told my mom I did something that I didn't do.

At that time, you seemed unable to construct a complete sentence, which was entirely out of character for you, so I thought there might be some kind of impairment at play. Reasonable enough in my view.

What happened to that's all I got here? ―Mandruss ☎ 02:52, 12 December 2023 (UTC)

you seemed unable to construct a complete sentence ... Reasonable enough in my view says someone who had minutes earlier stated they had been up 30 hours. just stop this trashtalk FFS soibangla (talk) 02:58, 12 December 2023 (UTC)

It's my talk page. This is where I get to trash talk all I want. Don't like it? Leave. Go far, far away. ―Mandruss ☎ 03:05, 12 December 2023 (UTC)

you suggested I was drunk on Talk:Donald Trump. Likely sanctionable. I recommend you cut your losses. Stop. soibangla (talk) 03:11, 12 December 2023 (UTC)

Wrong.[1] Again. Are you drunk? ―Mandruss ☎ 03:14, 12 December 2023 (UTC)

"Have you been drinking by any chance?"

keep goin'! soibangla (talk) 03:16, 12 December 2023 (UTC)

Link the diff to support your statement: you suggested I was drunk on Talk:Donald Trump. It doesn't fucking exist, and you know it (now). Are you capable of acknowledging your errors, let alone learning from them?? You are very close to being the first editor ever banned from this page. ―Mandruss ☎ 03:22, 12 December 2023 (UTC)

"Have you been drinking by any chance?"

hah! soibangla (talk) 03:25, 12 December 2023 (UTC)

It was on your talk page, not Talk:Donald Trump, as clearly evident in the diff I linked above. Are you drunk? You are now banned from this page and I'd suggest you respect that ban for your own sake. ―Mandruss ☎ 03:27, 12 December 2023 (UTC)

Mandruss, why not use your super powers for good like Batman and so forth? Nobody would have objected if you'd scolded all the off-topic, strawman, unreasoned, and chitchat posting on that talk page over the past week or so. Seriously, you could really help out that way. When somebody makes a comment like the one about amending the US constitution or ignoring RS, you could help tamp that stuff down. Then you could get some more barnstars and other internet glory. The Admins have almost completely abdicated their DS/CT role, preferring to sit back like the Supreme Court and scratch their chins at AE like the wisemen and womsen they are. That means that normal people who don't want to waste time prosecuting a complaint with diffs etc. just give up editing those pages. SPECIFICO talk 03:49, 12 December 2023 (UTC)

No, I'm not going to self-appoint as Talk Page Sheriff. I save that kind of thing for the few most extreme cases, and that's the main reason I get away with them (sometimes). You trying to set me up for an AE complaint? :) If elected, I might serve, but I don't see that happenin'. ―Mandruss ☎ 05:23, 12 December 2023 (UTC)

Trump, talk,

Sir, that page is cluttered with hundreds of unconstructive chat room type posts and that user is responsible for many such distractions, including that same punctuation mistake roughly once a week. It actually would make their posts more intelligible if they figured out how to write simple sentences like that. I suspect there are several such commas on the page right now.

Maybe you could counsel that eager editor and help them focus on the use of talk pages for constructive comments. Did you know that on Arb. Palestine/Israel pages unconstructive talk page posts are actually prohibited and are regularly removed by editors and Admins? They should do that for AP too! SPECIFICO talk

@SPECIFICO: You've got mail. ―Mandruss ☎ 03:39, 12 December 2023 (UTC)

@SPECIFICO: You've got more mail. ―Mandruss ☎ 04:32, 12 December 2023 (UTC)

@SPECIFICO: You've got yet more mail. ―Mandruss ☎ 03:38, 15 December 2023 (UTC)

This old gal blushes at such ardent attention. SPECIFICO talk 12:03, 15 December 2023 (UTC)

That "The and periodicals" thread

It would have been better if both I and David had used different wording that you found more palatable (and it probably wouldn't take a mind reader to guess in either case that it wouldn't be received well; for my part, mea culpa).

But if you substitute out "weasel" in David Eppstein's post (try "wiggle" or "wriggle", as suits your dialect), and remove "goofy" from mine, the points were valid, or at least remain unrefuted. If you just take a dismissive posture based on the tone of a tiny part of the disagreements, and ignore and refuse to address their substance, then turn tit-for-tat toward the critics of your idea, that isn't "debate... by the strength of our reasoning", to use your words. It's unlikely to improve the discussion in any way or get us closer to resolution.  — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼  06:18, 28 December 2023 (UTC)

Well thanks for caring that much, at least. I wouldn't feel much better about "wiggle" or "wriggle", as they both imply some level of bad faith (disingenuousness, sneakiness, covert maneuvering, whatevah). Not that "weasel" was the only problem; it's just the only one I opted to highlight (trying to minimize the OT).

I was merely presenting an argument as best I knew how. I lived by KISS throughout my 30-year career as a software developer, and no doubt that influenced my particular take on that issue. If I was in over my head, that was no reason to get frustrated and respond in that harsh and overbearing tone.

Contrast to my recent behavior at Talk:Donald Trump#Link China trade war in the lead, in which I'm interacting with a far newer editor using a very different style and tone than Eppstein's. (I don't recall being frustrated, much, but my testosterone level is declining in my later years. When I do get frustrated, I generally have enough self-control to keep a hat on it. Grown-ass man and all that.) He has a ton to learn, but instead of excoriating him for verbosely showing that (which would serve nothing but my ego), I'm doing my best to help him along, without sounding patronizing or condescending, while attending to the discussion topic at the same time. I think he'll be a good editor in a few years, if he sticks it out.

It's what I called common respect, which is due every one of us except those who are clearly being disruptive and/or contributing in bad faith (that wasn't me). Yes, I'll continue to check out the minute I see his kind of talk, since there are more important things to me even than MoS issues. I'll do my best to avoid the MoS area in the future (I'm semi-retired anyway, which should largely mean DGAF). ―Mandruss ☎ 07:22, 28 December 2023 (UTC)

I get what you're saying. I think my wiki-skin is just much thicker (being one of the main MoS shepherds will do that to ya; everyone wants to change at least one thing in MoS to suit a personal pet peeve, and they usually get angry and venty at anyone who blockades their WP:CREEPing change demands). I don't think David was implying any kind of bad faith, he was just using unnecessarily sport-or-war-oriented analogizing with regard to argumentation, e.g. that his masterful logic necessarily imposed a hold or front from which there is no escape. I used to make arguments like that myself in my olden days here, being used to ranty debating on Usenet and other forums. It's a hard habit to break. PS: Good on you for helping hold a new-user hand. For my part, I try do this with user-talk notices when people do something broken. If they're not clearly acting in bad faith (vandalizing, spamming), I try to include helpful instructions after a boilerplate template, like where to ask the question they mis-posted; how to properly format an edit-protected request and that it expects both a "chage X to Y" request and a very clear reason to perform the change; how to do a basic <ref> citation instead of just dumping a URL directly into the article body; etc.  — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼  00:55, 31 December 2023 (UTC)

At Trump

You need to stop getting into these little battles with random editors. It will damage your appetite for editing, and, before we know it,

SEMI-RETIRED

This user is no longer very active on Wikipedia.

will become

Retired

This user is no longer active on Wikipedia.

I don't want that. Cessaune [talk] 15:41, 28 December 2023 (UTC)

Random editors plural? What, Soibangla and TheCelebrinator? I don't think I've crossed the line in either case, but I will certainly give your comment some thought. Any off-topic can be collapsed with no objection from me, but in my opinion certain things need to be said. The latter editor is sucking up way too much oxygen for his current competence level, and he has been for some time. Imagine being a new arrival to that discussion, or the preceding one. Ick.

But that's one of the great things about semi-retirement; I can be a bit more vocal about things like that because there's not a lot left to lose. I no longer fear full retirement, whether voluntary or the other kind. It might actually be fun to just lurk at Trump. I don't want that. Well thanks. I wouldn't want it for you, either. I was highly impressed when you resurrected the section links idea. ―Mandruss ☎ 15:54, 28 December 2023 (UTC)

Mistaken identity

For what it's worth, my references to browbeating, blocks and need to read policies were aimed at the other editor. Sorry I didn't make that clearer. Tarl N. (discuss) 23:48, 1 January 2024 (UTC)

@Tarl N.: Oh that was crystal clear. I'm pretty good at self-awareness, and reading that it occurred to me that I had been doing exactly that (as to browbeating). My comment was a sort of mea culpa non culpa. ―Mandruss ☎ 04:40, 2 January 2024 (UTC)

Donald Trump wikilinks

Hi, I'm Paper Luigi, and I'm not sure that I agree with your revert on my recent contribution to the article Donald Trump. It appears to me that the wikilinks I provided do not go against MOS:EGG, as you suggested. I was not trying to trick people into thinking that, perhaps, "impeachment" in this context referred to Impeachment in the United States or that the First impeachment of Donald Trump and Second impeachment of Donald Trump meant anything other than what they are intended to mean. I feel that my contributions represented portions of the article that would benefit from being wikilinked in the lead section. Could you please elaborate on how these wikilinks do not meet standards? — Paper Luigi ^{T • C} 05:25, 9 April 2024 (UTC)

@Paper Luigi: Hi. Oh they definitely "go against MOS:EGG", since a reader seeing "impeached" would expect to go to Impeachment. Your links don't take the reader where they would expect to go, thus EGG. Also, editors at that article have tried hard to minimize links in the lead, so as to avoid "sea of blue", so I'm not sure that reducing the EGGiness of your links would necessarily be accepted, either. I suggest taking this to Talk:Donald Trump if it's important to you. Cheers. ―Mandruss ☎ 05:33, 9 April 2024 (UTC)

I agree that the talk page would be a viable place to go, but I'm at odds with your logic on how those terms should appear. Impeachment is a broad article that deals with governments both including and those outside of the United States. I linked to more specific articles, such as Trump's first and second impeachment. Using your expected perceptions of the reader, should we only link to the most vague of terms, or is it preferable to link to specific articles when we find it necessary? Furthermore, if your assertion were true, a revert would not be necessary. Instead, you would change one or more redirects to point to the broad Impeachment article, but you did not do so. I added those wikilinks to Trump's first and second impeachments as a reader, not as a longtime contributor. I added them for my convenience as a reader of WP. As a reader, I do not find wikilinks in the lead section to be inadequate, nor do I find a "sea of blue", as you have asserted. I acknowledge that "sea of blue" article leads can be a problem, but I do not see this as justification for this particular case. Would you please elaborate further? — Paper Luigi ^{T • C} 05:48, 9 April 2024 (UTC)

@Paper Luigi: First, I apologize for not reading more carefully. I think your first link would violate MOS:OVERLINK: "... the following are usually not linked: Everyday words understood by most readers in context (e.g., education, violence, aircraft, river, animation)...". We're an encyclopedia, not a dictionary.

As to the other two links, I'm telling you how editors at that article have always interpreted MOS:EGG, and I've edited there since 2015. We perhaps take it more seriously than most editors.

To reduce EGGiness, one might do something like this:

Trump is the only American president to have been impeached twice. After he tried to pressure Ukraine in 2019 to investigate Biden, he was impeached by the House of Representatives for abuse of power and obstruction of Congress. He was acquitted by the Senate in February 2020. The House impeached him again in January 2021 for incitement of insurrection.

Again, I'm not sure that would be accepted either. In the end, this is not about how you or I feel about it, but about how a larger number feel about it. Hence, Talk:Donald Trump. I agree that the talk page would be a viable place to go So go there. Re-cheers. ―Mandruss ☎ 06:05, 9 April 2024 (UTC)

I have taken your advice and initiated a conversation at Talk:Donald Trump. Your input is welcome. — Paper Luigi ^{T • C} 06:24, 9 April 2024 (UTC)