Template talk:Shakespeare

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I thought The Tempest was a tragicomedy... Sonic Mew | talk to me 14:31, July 30, 2005 (UTC)

Order of the Plays

The plays are neither in alphabetical order or in chronological order. I think it should be the former because there is no consensus on an exact chronology. The current order seems random or in order of somebody's estimate of popularity.Scottandrewhutchins 03:22, 7 August 2006 (UTC)

I think you're right ... anyone else have a comment? The Singing Badger 04:44, 7 August 2006 (UTC)
Another reason to put them in alphabetical order is because the division into genre breaks any meaningful chronological order. -Acjelen 15:19, 12 August 2006 (UTC)

Suggested revision to template

What do people think of the following? Remember 16:12, 11 October 2007 (UTC)
General information
First Folio.jpg
Tragedies
Comedies
Histories
Poems
Apocrypha and
Lost Plays
Other play
information

Moved comments from Shakespeare WikiProject page:
 I wanted to get the project's opinion on my suggested change to the Shakespeare template. So what do you think?Remember 16:49, 11 October 2007 (UTC)

I like it! Bardofcornish 21:26, 11 October 2007 (UTC)

I generally don't like to center text in templates (and I don't know how) but someone else is free to tweak it. With this positive feedback, I am going to change the template. Remember 13:05, 12 October 2007 (UTC)
Now someone has shown a preference for the old one. If you prefer the new old (or prefer the old one) please speak up at the template's talk page (where I am moving this discussion). Remember 13:25, 12 October 2007 (UTC)
Prefer the current one. The differentiated shading for each section, though, would improve the current. DionysosProteus 13:19, 12 October 2007 (UTC)

I have restored the left justified version of the template, which was changed without discussion. It seemed to me the centered version was harder to read and looked...well...odd. If there is a consensus to change it back, I will not raise a ruckus, but the current version now looks cleaner and more professional, imho. Smatprt (talk) 06:39, 18 April 2008 (UTC)

I undid your restoration edit (sorry), followed by an edit where I left-aligned the lists. I'm aware that my edits were quite bold, but as I did my edits in small bits, you can look through the diffs – they should be quite readable. And I think that my version is somewhat “cleaner” than the old one. It may not look entirely identical, but that may be fixed. Best regards, Fred Bradstadt (talk) 08:31, 18 April 2008 (UTC)
Actually, what I'd prefer is something like what was proposed (above) last October. I have here included the currently used image, but for example Image:First Folio.jpg might fit better (being taller than wide):
William Shakespeareand his works
General information
Shakespeare2.jpg
Tragedies
Comedies
Histories
Poems
Apocrypha and
lost plays
Other play
information
–Fred Bradstadt (talk) 08:41, 18 April 2008 (UTC)
I agree. I like the template that uses navbox features (I especially like mine above). If you want to seek consensus for the change I will support it. Remember (talk) 13:34, 18 April 2008 (UTC)
I also strongly agree. The template is quite ugly in its current form and the new form looks much cleaner, has the collapsible option, and is a standard form. --CapitalR (talk) 13:35, 18 April 2008 (UTC)
thanks for justifying left. I like it with the additional (present) changes as well. Not sure about Shakespeare's floating head in the version above though. I don't think it looks quite professional from a graphic layout standpoint. Perhaps if the graphic was in the upright corner? Not sure. Smatprt (talk) 18:30, 18 April 2008 (UTC)
I keep flipping back and forth between the templates above and the present one. I pasted it in below to make comparisons easier. Having done that and looking at the 3 on this page, the one below looks cleanest and most professional (imho). The image in the upleft corner looks well placed and the air around the template title makes for a pleasing presentation. I would advise keeping the present version (with the recent changes). Smatprt (talk) 05:24, 19 April 2008 (UTC)
Plays
Shakespeare (oval-cropped).png
Poems
Apocrypha
Plays
Poetry
Miscellaneous

Picture Location

Does anyone know how to move the picture to the top right corner, and then have the template lists fill in the white space below the picture (like in an article)? I was thinking that this template has become quite large with a lot of white space. If the picture was top right and the categories from "Comedies" down went full width, the template would be considerably smaller and more pleasing to the eye. I'd at least like to see what it would look like. Anyone? Smatprt (talk) 16:16, 5 November 2008 (UTC)

  • I'm quite sure this isn't feasible, but I'd like to propose removing the picture altogether. It doesn't really add much to the template—images of Shakespeare can be found at his main article and the image takes up a lot of space in the template. Without the picture, the template would be about a third shorter—a significant amount. Mr. Absurd (talk) 03:27, 12 November 2008 (UTC)

Well I played around and I came up with this. It does what I was hoping to do - reduced the overall size (we both agree that it could be shorter), but it keeps the picture. I am loathe to simply remove it due to the great discussion that went into it, and the consensus that was built around using it. So this is what it looks like:
General
information
Tragedies
Comedies
Histories
Poems
Apocrypha and
lost plays

Please let me know what you think. Smatprt (talk) 04:08, 12 November 2008 (UTC)

I'm not a big fan... it leaves odd-looking spaces before and after “General information” and two of the groups are in the same box. I understand why you did this, but I think it looks out of place—I'd rather leave it the way it is now than like this. Mr. Absurd (talk) 20:49, 13 November 2008 (UTC)
I agree (but it was fun trying). I've made one more attempt by combining "General" and "other" information (not quite sure what the difference is between the two!), resulting in a loss of the odd-looking spaces. I'd be interested in your comments. It's not a do for die issue for me, but, regardless, it's been nice interacting with you :) Smatprt (talk) 00:55, 14 November 2008 (UTC)

Major changes to template

I reverted a number of major changes that have been made over the last week or so. None of these changes were described in the edit summary, and none were discussed on the talk page - where we had spent considerable time working up a consensus for the present (reinstated) version. The template today (the reinstated one) is short and to the point, with not a lot of white space. Prior to my reversion, the template had grown to more than twice its size, and contained tons of wasted space. Any thoughts?Smatprt (talk) 16:44, 31 January 2010 (UTC)

I actually liked the redesign, but I did mention to the editor that he needs to run his ideas past people before implementing them. In any case, I do agree with you about the white space thing, but I think he was on to something in general. The picture was a good idea, and a few links not in the current template were added. Having gotten used to his edits, the current one looks kinda bland. But, having said all that, I do think you were right to revert it. On a semi related point, should Edward III still be listed in the Apocrypha section? It's included in the Oxford, Riverside and Norton collected editions, Cambridge have an edition of the play and both Oxford's and Arden's editions are forthcoming in 2010 and 2011 respectively (incidentally, Arden is also releasing an edition of Sir Thomas More in 2011). Would it not make sense to move it to the main set of plays? But getting back to the subject at hand, like I say, I did like his edits, but I agree with the revert. Because I like to be awkward apparently! Bertaut (talk) 00:49, 1 February 2010 (UTC)
Apparently your message was completely ignored. More major changes today with no discussion and no edit summary, which can appear either deceptive, or just ignorant of Wiki policy. Reverting until this discussion is over. We need to talk this thru and develop a consensus. Right now Bertaut and I are the only ones talking. If this continues, then the consensus will be whatever Bertaut and I agree on.Smatprt (talk) 07:32, 3 February 2010 (UTC)

How about this as a compromise of sorts?

I made a few very minor tweaks. This works for me so if you want to post it, feel free. Much better than today's additions with all those collapsible boxes! Yikes! Smatprt (talk) 07:32, 3 February 2010 (UTC)
Tragedies: Antony and Cleopatra · Coriolanus · Hamlet · Julius Caesar · King Lear · Macbeth · Othello · Romeo and Juliet · Timon of Athens · Titus Andronicus · Troilus and Cressida

Comedies: All's Well That Ends Well · As You Like It · The Comedy of Errors · Cymbeline · Love's Labour's Lost · Measure for Measure · The Merchant of Venice · The Merry Wives of Windsor · A Midsummer Night's Dream · Much Ado About Nothing · Pericles, Prince of Tyre · The Taming of the Shrew · The Tempest · Twelfth Night · The Two Gentlemen of Verona · The Two Noble Kinsmen · The Winter's Tale

Histories: King John · Edward III · Richard II · Henry IV, Part 1 · Henry IV, Part 2 · Henry V · Henry VI, Part 1 · Henry VI, Part 2 · Henry VI, Part 3 · Richard III · Henry VIII
Miscellaneous
Hw-shakespeare.png
William Shakespeare Signature.svg

I'll post this one so. And yeah, collapsable boxes are pretty horrific. I noted on the guy's talk page that he seems to have a thing for editing without any summaries or discussions. There's quite a few comments on there about it. Bertaut (talk) 17:20, 3 February 2010 (UTC)

Changes

My objection to the placement of the SAQ link was its prominence after it was "restored," before which it was last or next to last on the list. I have alphabetised the list, so I hope we can agree that is the neutral method to list them.

Interesting - when it was last on the list, it was actually "more" prominent. But if you want to go alpha, it's not worth arguing about.Smatprt (talk) 22:26, 10 May 2010 (UTC)

My objection to the Oxfordian chronology is that it doesn't have anything to do with Shakespeare and is a violation of WP:ONEWAY. The Oxfordian theory link was removed 2 April 2010 with this edit on the grounds that it was redundant with the SAQ link included. The same reasoning applies to this, so unless you can come up with a convincing reason why it should be included I will delete it tomorrow and if you object we'll go to the noticeboards again with it. Tom Reedy (talk) 01:00, 10 May 2010 (UTC)

P.S. Not explaining an edit on the talk-page is not a valid reason to revert as long as the edit is explained in the summary as per Wikipedia policy. If you disagree with the content, say so. Tom Reedy (talk) 12:33, 10 May 2010 (UTC)
You might want to reread ONEWAY - it has to do with articles, not templates. And FYI - ONEWAY is a guideline and not a "policy", so using ONEWAY as an overriding policy(as you and Nishidani continue to do) is not correct. In terms of you setting a deadline (I will delete tomorrow if...) - I don't think that approach qualifies as discussion or building a consensus. Why not just lay out your argument for change and see how other editors respond? Smatprt (talk) 22:26, 10 May 2010 (UTC)
You still haven't dealt with the content. Tell me why it should be included; I've already told you why it doesn't belong: it isn't about Shakespeare, it's about a subcategory of a fringe theory that is not included in the temple.WP:NAVBOX states "If the articles are not established as related by reliable sources in the actual articles, then it is probably not a good idea to interlink them." Show me where this is true for "Oxfordian chronology". None of the articles even mention it, much less contain an RS that states they are related.
The principle of WP:ONEWAY applies, because a template does not stand alone; the template is a collection of links that link articles together. By including the "Oxfordian chronology" link in the template, you are linking main articles to a fringe article, in violation of WP:ONEWAY.
Let me also direct your attention to this suggestion, again from WP:NAVBOX: "Ask yourself, does this help the reader in reading up on related topics? Take any two articles in the template. Would a reader really want to go from A to B?" I don't think anybody would answer in the affirmative. It would, however, be appropriate in the SAQ and Oxfordian theory template.
And your argument that guidelines are not applicable to the content of templates, bedsides being wrong for the reason stated above, does your cause no good; it merely serves as more evidence that that your publicly-stated intent to promote Oxfordism is of more importance to you than to comply with the highest and best standards for Wikipedia that have been hammered out through consensus. Tom Reedy (talk) 03:06, 11 May 2010 (UTC)
You just keep making things up, don't you. "Evidence??" Sorry, far from it. I know you now consider yourself an expert on wikipedia, but you really need to learn the differences between policies and guidelines, between articles and templates, etc. Smatprt (talk) 05:57, 10 June 2010 (UTC)

Recent formatting changes

I've moved this suggested template here for discussion. Smatprt (talk) 05:57, 10 June 2010 (UTC)
Plays
Poems
Apocrypha
Other


And here is the current version for comparison purposes:
Tragedies: Antony and Cleopatra · Coriolanus · Hamlet · 'Julius Caesar · King Lear · Macbeth · Othello · Romeo and Juliet · Timon of Athens · Titus Andronicus · Troilus and Cressida

 Comedies: All's Well That Ends Well · As You Like It · The Comedy of Errors · 'Cymbeline · Love's Labour's Lost · Measure for Measure · The Merchant of Venice · The Merry Wives of Windsor · A Midsummer Night's Dream · Much Ado About Nothing · Pericles, Prince of Tyre · 'The Taming of the Shrew · The Tempest · Twelfth Night · The Two Gentlemen of Verona · The Two Noble Kinsmen · The Winter's Tale

 Histories: King John · Edward III · Richard II · Henry IV, Part 1 · 'Henry IV, Part 2 · Henry V · Henry VI, Part 1 · Henry VI, Part 2 · Henry VI, Part 3 · Richard III · Henry VIII
Miscellaneous
Hw-shakespeare.png
William Shakespeare Signature.svg

I realize this template has seen recent revert wars so understand the caution, but as I stated in the history Melchior's version seems pretty straightforwardly better to me. It properly uses subgroups, colors are consistent with other templates, and eliminates a lot of redundancy in the bottom group. Restoring the picture on the right side (as I've seen done for other author templates) isn't a bad idea, though; the coat of arms (but not the quill, which is pointless) could go there, too. YLee (talk) 06:34, 10 June 2010 (UTC)

It wasn't so much a standard revert war as someone made a bunch of changes with no edit summary or explanation, and Smatprt reverted them. Then he reverted Smatprt, and I did an edit reaching a compromise. Then he reverted me, and I reverted him, and that was that. I can totally understand why you prefer the simplified version Ylee, but my preference is for the larger one. My reasons are fairly simple. It's unique, the simplified version looks like a lot of other templates on Wikipedia; the current version has some character. However, having said that, I'm not about to get petty over this. If people prefer the simpler version, so be it. In actual fact, your idea about introducing the picture and the coat of arms into that version is an excellent compromise idea. I'd try it myself but I'm not familiar enough with template editing to do it! Bertaut (talk) 16:26, 10 June 2010 (UTC)
Either one of these works for me, but why are some of the titles in bold while others aren't? They look muddy viewing with Mozilla, and while Explorer looks better, the bold letters still appear unnecessary. Tom Reedy (talk) 19:34, 10 June 2010 (UTC)
Actually, I think this version made by Smatprt looks better than either of these. Tom Reedy (talk) 19:39, 10 June 2010 (UTC)

Edward III

I've moved Edward IIIfrom the Apocrypha section into the Histories section, as it's now pretty much considered as part of the canon. It's included in the Oxford, Riverside, Norton and Arden collected editions, Cambridge have an edition of the play and both Oxford and Arden editions are forthcoming in 2012. I think that makes it official. Bertaut (talk) 00:35, 18 August 2011 (UTC)