Talk:The Great Global Warming Swindle/Archive 2

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Durkins editing of the temprature compared to solar activity graph

Enought is not said on this, he used a graph knowing it was out dated, as he could not use the current one with an extra 17 years of data. The last 17 years which shows solar activity decreasing and temprature increasing rapidly, contradicts his is "solar activity". Which is why he did not use it,as I shows his theory is not correct.

This deliberate misleading and rigging of information should be made more of, as it shows Durkin and his information can not be taken seriously.--203.87.127.18 12:30, 28 July 2007 (UTC)

This is mentioned in several places in the article already. Possibly you could expand one of those, although if you're going to say something to the effect 'The last 17 years which shows solar activity decreasing and temprature increasing rapidly, contradicts his is "solar activity"', please provide a source. Thanks, merlin --Merlinme 10:31, 29 July 2007 (UTC)

Also it doesn't change the fact that the greatest period of temperature increase happened before the industrial age, coinciding with increased solar activity.

Detailings of ad hominem attacks are irrelevant to this article

I removed this paragraph:

The Times reported that Durkin had seriously fallen out with a scientist who had been considering working with him. Armand Leroi was concerned that Durkin had used data about a correlation between solar activity and global temperatures which had subsequently been found to be flawed. Leroi sent Durkin an e-mail saying, "To put this bluntly: the data that you showed in your programme were... wrong in several different ways". He copied the e-mail to scientific author Simon Singh. Durkin responded to Leroi saying "You’re a big daft cock". Singh sent an email to Durkin urging him to engage in serious debate. Durkin responded stating, "Since 1940 we have had four decades of cooling, three of warming, and the last decade when temperature has been doing nothing", and concluded with, "Go and fuck yourself".[15] Durkin later apologised for his language, saying that he had sent the e-mails when tired and had just finished making the programme, and that (despite his comments) he was "eager to have all the science properly debated with scientists qualified in the right areas".[26]

If you care to, you could list what professional objections Leroi has, but the rest does not belong in this article.

can we add to it the comparison two graphs that relate to this ie showing the fudged/ "smoothed" data and the raw data? Cilstr 06:42, 31 May 2007 (UTC)

Opening paragraph

I added that the film makers regard the TGGWS as The definitive answer to Al Gore's An Inconvenient Truth and it is removed twice because it is considered a "sales pitch".

You could say "the self-proclaimed 'definitive answer to Al Gore's An Inconvenient Truth'", which is kinda what you had but reworded. Maybe that's less of a sales pitch? 71.247.1.154 00:33, 13 April 2007 (UTC)

If you were to view each wikipedia article relating to both films you will see that critisms of the latter are located where they belong - in the section dealing with critisism, can we reciprocate the same approach to this article? --Dean1970 10:26, 1 April 2007 (UTC)

I'm beginning to think that the green mafia don't want a certain other documentary wikilinked so soon into this article! --Dean1970 10:32, 1 April 2007 (UTC)

I personally wouldn't have a problem with this if you can provide a source which gives that exact quote- we're already quoting from the film's publicity, after all. However it's KimDabelsteinPetersen you need to persuade. --Merlinme 13:49, 1 April 2007 (UTC)

I'm not quite sure what Mr. Petersen is talking about. The quote comes from the official Web site. That's a reliable source. ~ UBeR 19:11, 1 April 2007 (UTC)

I've given the reason several times - its part of the advertising campaign - Ads are not in general WP:RS. Notice the placing of the quote (right side - second box) - its a sales pitch/advertising blurb for the DVD. Its not a "quote". Please refer to a serious article/text stating this - and i'll shut up about including it. Although it doesn't belong in the lead even if found (imho). --Kim D. Petersen 08:59, 2 April 2007 (UTC)

I'd have nothing against it if its part of a description of how the film is advertised/promoted in a section on this subject - possibly with a description of where the movie has been shown (has anyone but Channel 4 shown it?) --Kim D. Petersen 09:01, 2 April 2007 (UTC)

Where does Wikipedia say text from an official Web site is unreliable. I must have skimmed over that part. ~ UBeR 16:53, 2 April 2007 (UTC)

UBeR are you deliberately trying to be a devils advocate? The 2nd box is a clear advertising space - its attached to the page in that it advertises for the product that the page is about - but its still an Ad. Ads are usually made by advertising people - they are not in general known for their validity etc etc. I'd btw take the same stance if someone tried to add such a blurb to the lead for AIT. (ie. you owe your children to see this... *blerch*) --Kim D. Petersen 18:43, 2 April 2007 (UTC)

If it is an ad, as you proclaim, there should be no problem with writing "it was advertised as the definitive answer to AIT." It fits well with the one of the intro sentences, "Publicity for the programme states that the mainstream theory of global warming is 'a lie' and 'the biggest scam of modern times.'" I don't see much of a difference from publicity statements vs. ads. ~ UBeR 19:17, 2 April 2007 (UTC)

UBeR if you had read the above - then you would notice that i don't oppose that it is mentioned - i simply oppose that it is important or reliable enough to be used in the lead. (read that again: the lead). A section on how the movie has been promoted, what channels it has been shown on, what reactions it spawned in media etc - is a natural given for an article of this kind. --Kim D. Petersen 19:36, 2 April 2007 (UTC)

It's been promoted as the definitive answer to AIT... ~ UBeR 19:44, 2 April 2007 (UTC)

I don't really have a problem with quoting the film's publicity, as long as it's in made clear what source is and it's in quotemarks then people can make their own minds up. But changing the opening paragraph to say things like "asks how without solid supporting evidence the theory that mankind is largely to blame for climatic change is considered an undisputable fact"- that's outrageous. Who says this? Dean1970? We're supposed to stick to the facts and use 3rd party sources wherever possible, not make highly leading statements like "without solid supporting evidence". Many of us (including just about every climate scientist who's ever looked at it) would argue strongly that there is very solid supporting evidence, . --Merlinme 21:40, 2 April 2007 (UTC)

Please check sources before making changes

I've had to revert two changes which were made by someone who clearly hadn't read the original articles, or they would have seen why "censure" not "censor" is the word used in the article, and the sections are entitled "We Say", i.e. Independent environment team editorialising, not Geoffrey Lean's opinion. The British Antarctic Survey site is down at the moment, but I think I'm also going to have to change the CO₂s back to CO2s in their quote, as CO2 is what it says in the original source, and Wikipedia guidelines state you should always accurately reflect what it says in the original, regardless of normal style guidelines. Please check sources before assuming you know what they say and 'correcting' them. --Merlinme 13:46, 1 April 2007 (UTC)

I do not believe the CO₂ is such a problem. ~ UBeR 19:10, 1 April 2007 (UTC)

POV Cilstr 06:43, 31 May 2007 (UTC)

Actually, using CO2 may also be kinder to users since some browsers may not properly display and/or print the subscript 2 character. Anyhow, I'm sure we all know that CO2 is carbon dioxide. JimScott 07:01, 3 July 2007 (UTC)

Science doesn't work like you think it does. There is no ONE scientific opinion on any question. To frame it this way is to bite all of the idiodic arguments of the anti-warming group. The global warming phenom represented by Gore and this movie only reflect the recieved public opinion and no nuanced scientific debate. That needs to be stated early and often. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 129.174.176.4 (talk) 15:19, 14 October 2007 (UTC)

Are you serious? Have you read current scientific articles about global warming (or Wikipedia's summary of them)? Yes science is always about debate, but it is hard to find a single scientist who has studied the most recent research who disagrees that global warming exists and is at least partly man-made (although they may disagree about the exact amount which should be attributed to humans). Where this film is so dishonest is the way it relies on old research, only interviews scientists who dislikes the IPCC, and distorts the views of several of those (Wunsch, Eigil-Christensen). An Inconvenient Truth is not perfect (and contains several exaggerations and inaccuracies), but the basic thesis has not really been questioned, and it does largely represent the consensus scientific opinion on global warming. The Great Global Warming Swindle on the other hand has been questioned on the most fundamental level, both for misrepresenting the science, and for suggesting that the whole thing is a swindle or conspiracy.

Why was this commment added under "Please check sources", anyway? --Merlinme 19:06, 17 October 2007 (UTC)

Be aware of WP:SPS

I have just removed three of User:William_M._Connolley's blog entries from the article, as all failed to meet the Wikipedia standards of WP:SPS/WP:OR. Please be aware of the rules on self-published sources before using a blog entry as a reference. --Tjsynkral 17:34, 1 April 2007 (UTC)

No problem. See: "When a well-known, professional researcher writing within his or her field of expertise, or a well-known professional journalist, has produced self-published material, these may be acceptable as sources, so long as his or her work has been previously published by credible, third-party publications." --Stephan Schulz 17:58, 1 April 2007 (UTC)

A blog is NOT a credible, third party publication... Blogs are specifically mentioned in WP:SPS as being unacceptable. Please be aware that User:Stephan_Schulz has reverted the article to a previous version that is in violation of WP:SPS. Quote from WP:SPS: "Editors should exercise caution for two reasons: first, if the information on the professional researcher's blog (or self-published equivalent) is really worth reporting, a reliable source will probably have covered it; secondly, the information has been self-published, which means it has not been subject to independent fact-checking." --Tjsynkral 18:21, 1 April 2007 (UTC)

Excercise caution, right. However, these are not unusual or suprising statements. And "blogs" are mentioned in the very sentence you cite! --Stephan Schulz 18:24, 1 April 2007 (UTC)

Did you read the sentence? It says that blogs are not a reliable source. And these statements make large claims, such as one person who claims to be from the IPCC - which, being his personal website, could be total bunk. I could put on my personal website that I used to be the president of the Earth - would it be okay to say that I was former president of the Earth in a WP article and cite my personal website as the source? We need to take a hard line on WP:SPS to maintain WP:NPOV. --Tjsynkral 18:32, 1 April 2007 (UTC)

User:El_C is attempting to engage me in an edit war - I cannot revert again even though I am right on this one, due to WP:3RR. Therefore I am adding a WP:RFC for this situation. I believe that Wikipedia as a whole will not stand for self-published sources. --Tjsynkral 18:39, 1 April 2007 (UTC)

Well, well-known professionals writing in their field are sometimes allowed to be used as sources if written in a weblog. Wether William the mathematician counts as this is a different question. And his unrelenting bias and POV pushing on this article should also be considered, perhaps as a conflict of interest. ~ UBeR 19:17, 1 April 2007 (UTC)

Op-ed pieces by notable contributors published by a leading magazine are reliable sources. Seeds is a reputable publisher. The guideline to which you refer makes specific exceptions for sources like this. Guettarda 19:18, 1 April 2007 (UTC)

We need to use common-sense here, people. It is hardly appropriate to cite blog posts in this article composed by someone who heavily edits this article, regardless of his qualifications. It can be seen as a proxy method to push one's views into an article without being subject to policies on NPOV and the like. I would have much less of a problem citing WMC's published work. (And I think you're talking about something different Guettarda, the material in dispute is stricly blog posts). - Merzbow 19:23, 1 April 2007 (UTC)

No, I am talking about an op-ed publication by a major magazine...which happens to publish these through the tool of blogging. The mere fact that the person is a Wikipedia editor does not make then an unacceptable source - that assertion is ridiculous. Guettarda 19:42, 1 April 2007 (UTC)

The mere fact the user continuously vandalized this article with POV-pushing comments makes it an unacceptable source for this article. ~ UBeR 19:52, 1 April 2007 (UTC)

It doesn't matter to me whether WMC has been personally involved in this project or not - blog entries are NOT reliable sources, they are not peer-reviewed or fact checked, and they blatantly violate WP:RS. If the information presented in these non-reliable sources is factual, it can be found in, and therefore replaced by, a reliable source. --Tjsynkral 19:58, 1 April 2007 (UTC)

What you contend here contradicts what WP:RS actually says. Quote, "When a well-known, professional researcher writing within his or her field of expertise, or a well-known professional journalist, has produced self-published material, these may be acceptable as sources, so long as his or her work has been previously published by credible, third-party publications. Editors should exercise caution for two reasons: first, if the information on the professional researcher's blog (or self-published equivalent) is really worth reporting, a reliable source will probably have covered it; secondly, the information has been self-published, which means it has not been subject to independent fact-checking." Yes, we have to be careful using material from blogs. But your flat contention that "blog entries are NOT reliable sources" is wrong. Raymond Arritt 20:23, 1 April 2007 (UTC)

Has this "been previously published by credible, third-party publications"? If not, then it explicitly disallows inclusion of blogs. If so, cite the credible, third-party publication. --Tjsynkral 23:06, 1 April 2007 (UTC)

Please read more carefully: "so long as his or her work has been previously published by credible, third-party publications." It's referring to the blogger's expertise in the field as corroborated by credible, third-party publications, not the specific material in question. As for WMC's "credible, third-party publications" there's Science, Journal of Climate, Journal of Physical Oceanography, and plenty more. Raymond Arritt 23:43, 1 April 2007 (UTC)

Assuming your interpretation of the rule is correct - which doesn't really make sense, because all a person has to do is have had one thing published and then we could cite his blog entry saying the moon is made of cheese as easily as a scientific journal entry - that is not a firm entitlement, it is only a "may." I do not believe these off-the-cuff blog entries qualify for an exception, and I believe there are others who feel the same way as I do. Again: If it's factually correct, why not cite a Reliable Source on it? It would be to your side's benefit to produce better, more reliable sources. --Tjsynkral 00:06, 2 April 2007 (UTC)

Its pretty obvious that WP:RS supports using blogs in certain circumstances - RC is certainly used in many places. But the most sensible comment was We need to use common-sense here, people - we do. That Durkin faked the graphs is not in any doubt - he has admitted to this himself. Providing a link to the proof of this is useful and convenient. The people removing these links are not doing so for policy reasons but for censorship William M. Connolley 22:09, 1 April 2007 (UTC)

#1, WP:AGF. #2, read the policy - as quoted above, it states that self-published material is acceptable "so long as his or her work has been previously published by credible, third-party publications." What credible, third-party publication have those blog entries appeared in? If none, they violate the letter and spirit of WP:SPS. --Tjsynkral 23:09, 1 April 2007 (UTC)

You're misreading the policy again. It's not the particular work (otherwise this exception would be useless), but the author that needs to be published. And in this case, he is, in Science (journal), the Geophysical Research Letters, the Journal of Climate, and a lot of other reputable publications. --Stephan Schulz 23:40, 1 April 2007 (UTC)

William, censorship is a pretty big word for you. The information was still there. No one deleted content, only the links to contentious material written by a heavily biased and radical individual were deleted. ~ UBeR 23:33, 1 April 2007 (UTC)

Please keep in mind WP:CIV. Raymond Arritt 23:43, 1 April 2007 (UTC)

Being civil as possible, given the circumstances. ~ UBeR 23:48, 1 April 2007 (UTC)

Now we have WMC restoring cites and quotes from his own blog posts. This is a blatant conflict of interest. What's to stop him from placing any material he can't achieve consensus for adding to the article in a blog post, and then simply quoting from it under the rubric of the WP:RS exception - which I may add does not give blanket permission to cite blogs, but says they MAY be cited in certain limited circumstances. The word "may" is not the word "must", and so we are not forced to allow this if it would not be appropriate for other reasons, as is the case here. - Merzbow 00:31, 2 April 2007 (UTC)

1. There are no reasons, acceptable or otherwise, stated for refusing to cite RC.

2. I have added the cites and quotes (not from myself) and they have been removed. How am I affected by COI? --Skyemoor 17:02, 2 April 2007 (UTC)

I believe the "editors are to exercise caution when citing blogs" clause comes into effect there. WMC can "[place]any material he can't achieve consensus for adding to the article in a blog post, and then simply quoting from it under the rubric of the WP:RS exception", but if he can't gain any support for it from others who are showing suitable caution, then it can be struck down. We aren't giving a blanket license for any of WMCs blog posts here, we are saying that he is a published researcher in the field so, if the blog posts are reasonable, then they can be included. Obviously "reasonable" is a subjective point. I would note, however, that Stephan, Raymond, and myself (and I would guess others as well) all feel the particular cites under discussion are fine. As a minor note, however, it would probably be best, for the sake of appearance, if WMC left it to others to restore those particular cites in future. -- Leland McInnes 05:01, 2 April 2007 (UTC)

WMC has shown by his editing behavior here to have extremely strong views against this film. If he wants to write an article about it and get it published in a major publication, with editors, fact-checkers, peer-reviewers, and so on, then that's fine. But to quote him from a blog that he controls (or co-controls)? With no editorial oversight we're simply working on trust that what he's writing is accurate and objective - and we have every reason to believe he is not objective about the subject of this article. - Merzbow 05:13, 2 April 2007 (UTC)

The point of the "exercise caution" clause is that we are supposed to exercise caution because we are the fact checkers and we are the editorial oversight. If we can find significant factual errors in the blog posts in question then that would be reason to remove them. All the policy says is that we should exercise some caution, not just take it on faith, and analyse the blog posts and do some basic fact checking. The particular cases in question seem to be fairly straightforward to check -- for example the graphs presented on the page are, indeed, the graphs from the 2 versions of the documentary (I know, I watched the documentary and checked the screen captures he has). -- Leland McInnes 05:22, 2 April 2007 (UTC)

Absolutely wrong. We are emphatically not fact-checkers - that is original research. If Science magazine says the sky is green, then we say the sky is green. The standard is verifiability, reliability, and all that good stuff, not the "truth" as we claim to see it. That is why the WP:RS and WP:V policies even exist. - Merzbow 07:18, 2 April 2007 (UTC)

I beg to differ - we are fact-checkers - we check whether or not Science magazine actually does write that the sky is green. More to the point of this section - the blog pages by WMC aren't WP:OR, they are merely providing/showing the data that has already been established by a WP:RS source to be incorrect [1]. So what is the reason for removing the links? --Kim D. Petersen 09:57, 2 April 2007 (UTC)

It is trivial to verify that a source actually says what it claims to say when cited in a Wikipedia article, and Wikipedia would not be possible if we did not do so. But to say that a source is acceptable because it contains information from ANOTHER source that is allegedly accurate is original research, plain and simple. You're putting yourself in the role of peer-reviewer. - Merzbow 20:12, 2 April 2007 (UTC)

I have removed this information as well. A Wikipedia Administrator should know better then to defend the use of his own blog (non news source) to assist in an arguement against a Wiki article. WP:COI WP:SPS--Zeeboid 18:08, 2 April 2007 (UTC)

I Have removed, once again, the use of a blog as a source.[2]

According to Wikipedia[3]

When a well-known, professional researcher writing within his or her field of expertise has produced self-published material, these may be acceptable as sources, so long as his or her work has been previously published by reliable, third-party publications. Editors should exercise caution for two reasons: first, if the information on the professional researcher's blog (or self-published equivalent) is really worth reporting, a reliable source will probably have covered it; secondly, the information has been self-published, which means it has not been subject to independent fact-checking. Self-published sources, such as personal websites and blogs, must never be used as third-party sources about living persons, even if the author is a well-known professional researcher or writer; see WP:BLP. If a third-party source has published the same or substantially similar material, that source should be used in preference to the self-published one.

If not using blogs is true for a living person...--Zeeboid 19:49, 2 April 2007 (UTC)

I am somewhat uneasy about having a (non peer reviewed) WMC blog quoted in an article he has been so heavily involved in editing. However, the fact remains that he is an acknowledged (and published) expert in the field, and the RealClimate blog is a respected source on climate matters. He's not the only person who writes that blog, so you could argue it's separated from conflicts of interest to that extent. We can discuss whether there is a better way to do this- WMC himself has said he'd be happy to have the Real Climate quotes replaced by other quotes, if they can be found. Which is part of the point- we're looking for up to date comments on what is essentially current affairs, so our main sources are things like blogs, press releases, and newspaper articles. In those circumstances, I think use of a WMC RealClimate blog is reasonable. I have to say, I don't really understand why Zeeboid and Tjsynkral keep quoting Wikipedia guidelines which don't actually say what they keep claiming. For example, looking at SPS: a) WMC is a "well-known, professional researcher writing within his or her field of expertise"; b) he has "been previously published by reliable, third-party publications"; c) we are "exercising caution", i.e. we're discussing it here. We may reach the conclusion that there are better sources out there, but please do not use SPS as an excuse for deleting these sections without discussing here first. The guidelines do not say what you claim they say. --Merlinme 22:04, 2 April 2007 (UTC)

Something smells fishy. A Wikipedian's blog is not reliable source for criticism. And is only here to create new controversy. Shame! The machine512 07:08, 5 April 2007 (UTC)

Does anybody ever actually read the guidelines? Or the discussion? A Wikipedian's blog can be a reliable source for criticism, provided they have respected professional qualifications in that area, there is no other better source, and we use the source with caution. --Merlinme 09:52, 5 April 2007 (UTC)

Does anybody ever actually read the discussion? We already have a reliable source for the information. ~ UBeR 18:17, 5 April 2007 (UTC)

RealClimate link

RealClimate is exactly the kind of blog our exception was written for. It is written by a group of professional, recognized, published researchers in the field. It has been positively mentioned by Science (journal) and Nature (journal) and has been recognized as an excellent resource by other third parties. --Stephan Schulz 20:20, 2 April 2007 (UTC)

And the author of that blog, WMC, having very strong opinions against the subject of this article, and having been a heavy and controversial editor of this article, is the very situation that WP:COI was written for. - Merzbow 21:10, 2 April 2007 (UTC)

William is not the author of RealClimate, he is an author -- in fact, one of 11 regular contributors[4] (all notable, published, respected climate scientists). And he is not the author of the article in question, but an author, together with Gavin A. Smith. And he did not introduce that material in the first place (though, as has been pointed out, he has reverted its deletion).--Stephan Schulz 07:27, 3 April 2007 (UTC)

If he was adding his own comments, perhaps. But he isn't the one adding his own comments. If there is a COI here it is on the part of editors removing sources on the basis of their personal dislike for the author of the source. Don't remove sources based on your personal opinion of the author of the source. Guettarda 21:25, 2 April 2007 (UTC)

He DID add his own comments, check out yesterday's change history, and he marked the edit as minor to boot. If he chooses not to edit this article for a long period of time, then the COI disappears. Until then, it's inappropriate to include comments from the unmoderated blog of a heavy contributor to the article with a strong negative POV against the article's subject. Is this a precedent we really want to set? - Merzbow 22:10, 2 April 2007 (UTC)

What's interesting is that the objections are all about William. It can't be denied that the program did use old data, that it did fudge the graphs, and that it did use older studies without mentioning more recent ones that would have refuted them. Raymond Arritt 22:25, 2 April 2007 (UTC)

What's interesting is that William had continuously editing disruptively on this page with replacing documentary with propaganda on many occasions, as well as other POV-pushing edits that were disrutive. That said and exercising caution, his opinion ought not be valid here. What is more important is that there is a more reliable and less contentious source pointing out the same things you pointed out above, and it is used in the article. ~ UBeR 22:31, 2 April 2007 (UTC)

And it looks like the policy is correct, per the Independent: "If the information on the professional researcher's blog is really worth reporting, a reliable source will probably have covered it." ~ UBeR 22:34, 2 April 2007 (UTC)

I don't completely agree- I trust scientists more than journalists, and I trust two sources more than one. I would prefer to leave the RealClimate quote in, although I would agree it would be better if we could find other scientific sources to use. --Merlinme 22:52, 2 April 2007 (UTC)

As I said, it might be a conflict if William had been the one who added the reference - but, the truth is that a large number of editors agree with the addition of the of references. The real COI is the fact that a group of editors are removing references from the article because of their personal dislike for the source. That is totally unacceptable. Guettarda 01:41, 3 April 2007 (UTC)

What do you expect us to think about this particular source's ability to write objectively about this subject without peer review when he continues to make edits like this? We're being taken for a ride here. - Merzbow 01:51, 3 April 2007 (UTC)

As I said, your personal dislike of a person is not a valid reason to delete accurate information from the article. If you want to change Wikipedia's sourcing guidelines to say that articles should only be based on peer-reviewed literature, feel free. But you can't just make up rules to exclude people you dislike. Guettarda 02:00, 3 April 2007 (UTC)

You're sadly mistaken if you think that the blog exception gives you absolute right to insert such sources without consideration of any other factors that may impact the reliability of the source - namely conflict-of-interest. - Merzbow 03:36, 3 April 2007 (UTC)

Actually WP:NOR makes it clear that WMC is in violation of policy by re-inserting this material himself. I quote: "If an editor has published the results of his or her research in a reliable publication, then s/he may cite that source while writing in the third person and complying with our NPOV policy." A blog post to a blog one controls is hardly "publication". - Merzbow 03:42, 3 April 2007 (UTC)

RealClimate and Scienceblogs are reliable sources. Your quote says that you should not include material which was not published in a reliable publication. These are reliable publications...this is precisely the type of source that the blog exception describes. This is exactly the type of thing that the line you quoted from NOR permits. The only conflict on interest I see here is that of people who choose to use their dislike for the author of a source as a reason for excluding the source. Yes, there is a conflict on interest here - yours. Guettarda 03:59, 3 April 2007 (UTC)

The best joke is that no one has suggested that the source is inaccurate...just that they don't like the person who write it. Guettarda 04:00, 3 April 2007 (UTC)

The real problem is that editors are seeking any excuse to delete any reference to the scientific literature that would show that, on almost every point, the claims made in the film are nonsense. Their ideal would be to restrict reference to peer-reviewed publications that refer specifically to TGGWS. Of course, given the time lags, no such publications exist, and by the time any arise, some new piece of propaganda will have been produced, and we can all play the same game of whack-a-mole with that. JQ 04:25, 3 April 2007 (UTC)

It permits in the narrowest sense of the word, emphasizing that "Editors should exercise caution for two reasons" - the language is quite clear on that, and no amount of wishful thinking is going to show otherwise. But if you feel you have to twist the letter and spirit of policy for the greater good of defeating "propaganda", don't let us stand in your way. But rest assured that any neutral reader who happens to cross-reference the article change history with article cites, or stumble upon this talk page, will not be fooled. Remember who you're trying to convince here - not me, not Uber, but the readers. - Merzbow 05:52, 3 April 2007 (UTC)

I agree with JQ entirely. The facts should be stated. Mostlyharmless 07:31, 3 April 2007 (UTC)

Why can't we have the same standards as listed on other GW articles? The limiting of "Peer reviewed publications" is everywhere else, why not here also?--Zeeboid 15:27, 20 April 2007 (UTC)

Intro to the documentary

I tried to tidy up the intro and it is constantly deleted and replaced with critisim that actually has it own section. I even tried to replace the wording that Raymond deemed a little contentious but still this is not good enough. If you look at other TV programmes on wikipedia the intro starts with a brief synopsis explaining what the programme is about, etc.

Critisisms and quotes from other media sources belong in their own section.

I'm going to add it back. And ask that editors bear in mind the points I make before reverting it back to critisism. --Dean1970 21:43, 2 April 2007 (UTC)

Please see my comments under "Opening paragraph". I'm afraid I find your version a very long way from NPOV, and as far as I can tell, it's completely unsourced. I've reverted. --Merlinme 21:59, 2 April 2007 (UTC)

Ok, I've added a section that is common with TV programmes on wikipedia. The synopsis is sourced from the film and their own website. --Dean1970 22:05, 2 April 2007 (UTC)

Where, exactly? None of it is in quote marks, and it's so full of NPOV words I don't know where to start: "without solid supporting evidence", "used as fact to an unsuspecting public", "questions the reluctance of scientists to acknowledge the role of the Sun", this is ridiculous, all climate scientists accept the role of the Sun, the question is how much effect the Sun has. You then finish on "claims the biggest obstacle to rational debate on climate change is the use of the IPCC consensus argument" when I don't remember the programme mentioning the "IPCC consensus argument" once. Dean1970, please don't use this article to push your own point of view. --Merlinme 22:13, 2 April 2007 (UTC)

The "synopsis" seems to be the same stuff Mm removed before - so I've removed it again, on the same grounds William M. Connolley 22:22, 2 April 2007 (UTC)

I didn't make the film. I'm merely editing a synopsis of what the film makers claim (and they do make the claims).

I'm going to pursue this matter with wikipedia admin because the blatant point-of-view pushing here is out of order.

Nothing at all wrong with including a brief synopsis, wikipedia has no problems with them being used. They encourage people to make edits. You better get used to the fact that wikipedia allows sections to evolve and encourages editors as long as they're not being abusive. And trying to get people booted off wikipedia by warning them of 3rrs when in fact it is other people pushing their agenda is chicken@@@@! --Dean1970 22:33, 2 April 2007 (UTC)

Dean, you're right, there's nothing wrong with writing a synopsis of a film. However it has to be an accurate synopsis, and I didn't recognise the language you used as coming from the film, a lot of it sounded like your own opinions. The synopsis also has to be encyclopedic, which is to say, writing should either be uncontentious and factual, or attributed. I'm afraid your synopsis was neither. There may be a case for a synopsis for TGGWS (although the main arguments are summarised quite soon afterwards). But if you write it in such a blatantly biased way, you can expect it to be reverted. --Merlinme 22:49, 2 April 2007 (UTC)

Merlinme - You'd have to take up the claims you accuse of being biased with the film makers, they make them. I only added their claims in the synopsis, that doesn't mean they're endorsed by me, you and whoever, the claims are made, look at their website, they make the claims, not me. If they make the claims then they should be included in the synopsis. --Dean1970 22:53, 2 April 2007 (UTC)

Dean, none of the words in your section had quotemarks around them, so it was impossible for a reader to tell what was your opinion and what the film makers had said. To be an appropriate section, you should have put quote marks around the actual quotes and given references so people could check that was what was said. It's not helped by the fact that I know for a fact you've made edits in the past which put words in people's mouths, e.g. the Kenyan clinic doctor never said: "while western enviromentalists enjoy the benefits of modern energy being supplied to its hospitals via fossil fuel burning power plants". [5] If you look at the transcript, he didn't say that, or anything even close to that, so you'll forgive me if I'm dubious when you make edits which aren't referenced. Even with quotemarks and references, the synopsis would still have to add something to the article- the article is long, and the programme's claims are already summarised. But quotemarks and references would be a start. --Merlinme 07:17, 3 April 2007 (UTC)

All of a sudden theres a big interest about the Kenyan medical office?! Nothing about Africa being held back by environmentalists until I started editing on the page. Thats to your shame, not mine, thats to the holier-than-thou green mafias shame who were editing this page long before I showed up and happened to mention that there was more to this docu than graphs and data (like a gaggle of college snots,) but now all of a sudden Africa gets a mention to try and rub my nose in it, I have no shame about mixing the words there, it was wrong, yes, I'm sorry, yes, it was a heated edit yes, get over it and don't try and throw it in my face now to hide the fact that you have no logical reason to dispute the reasons I believe a synopsis should be included, quoting from the film makers! --Dean1970 07:42, 3 April 2007 (UTC)

There were a brief couple of sentences on Africa before, but it's true that we now have a section which more reflects the weight the programme gave to Africa, thank you for that. I personally thought the African section was one of the weaker parts of the programme- no mention was made of the fact that the Kyoto protocol specifically excludes developing countries, for example, and you can get solar power in places which don't have a National Grid- but it was quite a large part of the programme, so we should reflect that. But that wasn't what I was saying: I was saying I don't trust you to accurately report other sources. In that edit you didn't mix the words so much as completely make them up. The doctor never said a word about western environmentalists, and he never said a word about First World hospitals powered by fossil fuels. An encylopedia shouldn't make things up, and it should have references which can be checked. --Merlinme 08:00, 3 April 2007 (UTC)

Merlinme, I deliberately added that on, it was dishonest, I already admitted so above, I apologise. I also mentioned something about gourmet coffee and laptops....you want to go back and check that too? Seriously, I will strive to add a source when editing on a page (I usually always do). I will strive to keep a tin lid on my temper when I'm being pi@@ed off with other editors piping their oar into my reasonable edits. This is a serious issue, there has to be balance, when I changed the intro I kept "controversial documentary" in so as not to instigate a dispute with certain other wikipedians. btw, does 3rr warning I mean I can't edit on the page for a certain time period? --Dean1970 08:20, 3 April 2007 (UTC)

Glad to hear that you'll make constructive and sourced edits. 3rr does not mean you cannot make edits, but it does mean that you cannot make edits which are very nearly the same as something you've already reverted several times. If you are going to add in a synopsis, listen to other people's comments, and write it again taking into account the following things: put actual quotes in quote marks, and add references; when you're not using direct quotes, avoid contentious or biased language; and try and make sure the synopsis adds something to the article, bearing in mind that we already have a summary of the main arguments of the film, and a list of all the other claims immediately after. A brief description of the film in chronological order would add something, for example. One of my problems with your synopsis was that you seemed to be repeating material we had elsewhere, only with more inflammatory language. --Merlinme 08:39, 3 April 2007 (UTC)

The sad irony about the current intro (not for me,) is that it has more potential to tweak the interest of anyone reading it into buying the DVD or at the least viewing what they'll believe is their propaganda ridden, controversial, lop-sided, and polemic website. They're [particulary William, Raymond and Kim] doing wikipedia a diservice being so biased getting the first word in and the last word out anyway, but deleting reasonable edits to support their views and using weak arguments like "its advertising" or "3rr warnings" to ward off anyone who doesn't toe-their-line is pathetic!

Here is what I added - The documentary questions the evidence surrounding the current scientific consensus on global warming, and asks how without solid supporting evidence the theory that mankind is largely to blame for climatic change is considered an undisputable fact[This is supported on their website and on their documentary].

The documentary explores the relationship between the media and science and concludes that hours of uncritical coverage (sometimes apocalyptic) is devoted to the theory of manmade global warming and how this is being used as fact to an unsuspecting public [The website and the documentary (using graphic reel from a BBC global warming programme depicting the Thames Barrier being overwhelmed by tidal waves) also supports the jist of this edit, I'm trying not to copy word for word, mind].

The documentary questions the reluctance of scientists to acknowledge the role of the Sun on the Earths climate variation, claiming that variations in solar activity has a proven recorded history in effecting the Earths temperature. [Ok, I made a mistake not adding "some" before scientists, but generally, its covered in their website and their documentary].

The film claims that the scientific conclusions on ice-core data samples used in the documentary An Inconvenient Truth which claims that Co2 drives climate, is actually the other way around. [This is supported on their website and on the documentary].

The Great Global Warming Swindle claims the biggest obstacle to rational debate on climate change is the use of the IPCC consensus argument, the claim that the 'worlds top scientists all agree' on a consensus, that is used to brow beat politicians, stifle critisism in the media and ridicule any scientist that disagrees. [Again, their website states this, and their documentary].

I added this as an intro and suggested that critisism be kept for its section. Again, just to make clear, the film makers are making these claims, not me. And also, some of it isn't already included in the current version. The current intro does not read like the intro to a documentary. And it should, regardless of whether you agree or disagree with their claims. --Dean1970 09:42, 3 April 2007 (UTC)

I have replaced the word "argues" in the lead. See the definitions at dictionary.com [6] - in all of them where this context is used the definition is "present reasons and arguments" or similar. "Fights" and "rails" both carry definitions and connotations which include comment on the nature of the argument. They are not neutral. QmunkE 10:41, 3 April 2007 (UTC)

And I've gone one step further with "disagrees with", which per dictionary.com is "to differ in opinion; dissent". --Skyemoor 10:54, 3 April 2007 (UTC)

Disagrees is OK. Argues is non-neutral for precisely the defn Q gives: it implies reasnning, which the film didn't William M. Connolley 11:02, 3 April 2007 (UTC)

Stop trolling. Argue is perfectly neutral. It implies nothing, it doesn't imply rationality or irrationality. I'm rationally arguing right now with an irrational 'person' (you).--Rotten 14:31, 3 April 2007 (UTC)

Comment added back after Willaim removed it for being disagreeable. I added it back and edited in the word 'person' to tone it down.--Zeeboid 14:44, 3 April 2007 (UTC)

This is ridiculous - how can a documentary "disagree" with anything? It isn't a person - Durkin might disagree with the mainstream view, the documentary is his argument. Read the definitions - just because you don't believe the reasons given in the documentary (true or false, that isn't what's important here) doesn't mean it isn't an argument. QmunkE 13:50, 3 April 2007 (UTC)

Using your own logic, how can a documentary "argue" with anything? It isn't a person. "Disagrees" is more neutral and the definition fits. --Skyemoor 15:08, 3 April 2007 (UTC)

It is also POV to describe the film as "controversial" in the opening sentence. We don't do this with AIT. Iceage77 14:16, 3 April 2007 (UTC)

From the scientific standpoint, TGGWS is controversial. You allusion to AIT refers to political and special interest machinations. Important difference. --Skyemoor 15:08, 3 April 2007 (UTC)

This *is* ridiculuous - how can a doc "argue" with anything - it isn't a person. And re controv - please read the long long edit war stuff before starting off the war again William M. Connolley 14:19, 3 April 2007 (UTC)

Are you, William applying all your same rules and opinion to the other global warming documentary out there?--Zeeboid 14:49, 3 April 2007 (UTC)

Of course not. That represents the holy word of the Goracle and is beyond criticism. Iceage77 14:57, 3 April 2007 (UTC)

Your POV slip is showing. If you want to be taken seriously, apply the 5 pillars of WP. --Skyemoor 15:08, 3 April 2007 (UTC)

(de-indent) I don't want to edit war over this so I'm not changing the article. However, I find the childish behaviour of some users on this page is beginning to get very wearing - on both sides of the argument. From Wikipedia's own article, Argument:

An argument is a statement (premise) or group of statements (premises) offered in support of another statement (conclusion).

In no way is describing this documentary as something which argues something which is not neutral. It is accurate. This documentary is being used as an argument opposing the mainstream view of anthropogenic global warming. QmunkE 15:04, 3 April 2007 (UTC)

I have edited the introduction so the language used is similar to that in An Inconvenient Truth. Seems neutral enough to me, no "argue", no "rails", no "fights". Better? QmunkE 15:12, 3 April 2007 (UTC)

Your version side-steps the issue and this seems like a good way to do it (I reject the comparison with AIT, but thats another matter) William M. Connolley 15:28, 3 April 2007 (UTC)

I found the intro a little too invested. It should read that the basic premise for the film is to give evidence contrary the IPCC conclusions on global warming, especially in relation to anthropomorphic causes. The politics of the film are not the core purpose and should therefor not be included in the same sentence as the word "premise". The explanation of the politics is fine, but as the paragraph currently appears, it effectively says that the film is premised in political motives. A neutral commentator should leave such editorialising to the public. Wiki as an encyclopedia should be factual in its summaries, leaving opinions to the expanded sections. And opinions in context should be profered as opinions. This is not a newspaper. --Aspong 14:34, 15 May 2007 (UTC)

Another call for civility

Could people please remain civil? As for the particular issue of "argues" in the introduction, I don't really understand why we're in an edit war about it. WMC, even bad arguments are arguments; even arguments which are proved to be false are arguments; I can argue that night is day, if I want to. To disagree with the use of the word anywhere in relation to TGGWS seems over the top to me. Durkin uses a series of arguments, whether one agrees with them or not is irrelevant. --Merlinme 15:10, 3 April 2007 (UTC)

Junk Science Quotes

The quotes from Steve Milloy add little to the article and tend to veer off onto Junk Science material. This is clearly more appropriate for a POV blog than an encyclopedia, so it has been trimmed accordingly. --Skyemoor 01:11, 4 April 2007 (UTC)

Censorship issues

Please be aware that certain editors are patrolling the bio's of the contributers to this documentary and deleting any reference to their participation in the documentary. As Patrick Moore quite rightly summises these people are injecting their neo-marxism into their beliefs. Wikipedia (left to these guys) will turn into a bad night in East Berlin unless their stasi tactics are exposed. --Dean1970 02:33, 6 April 2007 (UTC)

Dean please be civil --Kim D. Petersen 02:51, 6 April 2007 (UTC)

Can you please name the articles in question so they can be corrected as necessary? If someone participated in TGGWS, that seems worth noting. Raymond Arritt 02:54, 6 April 2007 (UTC)

Dean1970 added a link from the Zoe Williams article to this one, simply because Williams happened to review the documentary for the Guardian TV section, when it was broadcast. I think there's some tenuous over-linking going on here, and I wouldn't be surprised if other random editors were deleting it as inappropriate detail. --McGeddon 10:10, 6 April 2007 (UTC)

Kim, I am a civil person thanks. Raymond, I have edited on the pages of the contributers to this film that they appeared on this film. I kept the entries short and sweet. They are constantly deleted for this and that reason. Then I'm accused of not being neutral, lol, you have to see who is talking to believe it. --Dean1970 03:16, 6 April 2007 (UTC)

Hm, the first couple that I looked at -- Lindzen and Michaels -- did mention TGGWS. The mention in the Lindzen article was not very well written so I tweaked it a little. (There were some punctuation problems and the like.) Raymond Arritt 03:28, 6 April 2007 (UTC)

ohh you tweaked it alright. --Dean1970 03:37, 6 April 2007 (UTC)

You're presumably upset that I took out the bit of puffery about the folks in TGGWS being "prominent" scientists. Some are (e.g., Lindzen), but the scientific accomplishments of some others are meager at best (e.g., Ball), while others are somewhere in the middle. Raymond Arritt 04:08, 6 April 2007 (UTC)

One pretty clear example. Was the first and only one I looked at so far. I'm sure this is far ranging. ~ UBeR 03:49, 6 April 2007 (UTC)

Second, of the third I looked at. Third of fourth. Etcetera. ~ UBeR 03:51, 6 April 2007 (UTC)

UBeR, Thank you! --Dean1970 03:53, 6 April 2007 (UTC)

My own view is that if anyone participated significantly in TGGWS then it deserves mention. Raymond Arritt 04:08, 6 April 2007 (UTC)

And I agree completely. Why Mr. Petersen feels otherwise is beyond me. Perhaps he has forgotten that Wikipedia is not a paper encyclopedia, that it publishes from verifiable and reliable sources, and the spirit of Wikipedia is negotiating through talk pages. Shame. ~ UBeR 04:25, 6 April 2007 (UTC)

Then what about every other TV program/"documentary" that addresses GW? That could be in the many dozens; for example News' "The Debate Continues", and so forth. Do we include each of these? Is it encyclopedic to do so? --Skyemoor 11:51, 6 April 2007 (UTC)

While anyone who participated significantly should be mentioned, it's less clear that anyone mentioned in passing or whose name rolls by on the credits should be. I just don't see the point in that -- it adds clutter to the bios, and it's not like their stances on the issue aren't clear anyway. Raymond Arritt 14:54, 6 April 2007 (UTC)

My stance on this is pretty reasonably provided on Talk:John Christy#Appearances section - Skyemore in the above hits one of my critiques of this pretty close to the mark. Can anyone explain to me why this particular movie is especially interesting on the bio-pages? Is it the intention that we should have every prominent appearence by anyone in some kind of production added to the biopages of the participants? Please think about this for a bit. Please reflect over WP:NOT and the intentions implied here in. Are these people famous because of their appearance in this movie? Please also reflect over noteworthy-ness in the broader aspects of an encyclopedia. (ie. try to focus away from this movie, and focus on the biography - is this particular movie noteworthy compared to the biography - does an the entry put undue weight compared to the subjects other information etc.) --Kim D. Petersen 15:31, 6 April 2007 (UTC)

To simplify what i'm saying in the above: When you are editing an article you have to think in the context of the article... In the context of TGGWS the appearaces of the scientists are important - but please change your context of thinking when you are on the biography pages and ask yourself: is it important in the context of the biography? --Kim D. Petersen 15:53, 6 April 2007 (UTC)

That's sort of what I meant by "participated significantly." We treat it like any other film -- a bio mention could be OK for the star of the show (or a few leading characters), but not for every walkon or person whose name appears in the credits. Raymond Arritt 15:57, 6 April 2007 (UTC)

Yeah, I guess Lindzen didn't play a big role in the film... ~ UBeR 16:35, 6 April 2007 (UTC)

Have you seen the film UBeR? How many minutes do you think Lindzen is in? How do you think he compares to the other scientists in length of appearance? But more importantly: Ask yourself how important is this movie in Lindzen life? Should it be a notable part of Lindzen biography - how does it scale compared to his other accomplishments? Even when limiting things to his sceptical public appearances? --Kim D. Petersen 16:58, 6 April 2007 (UTC) (and even more important what quote of Lindzen's is "sceptical of IPCC methods"? --Kim D. Petersen 17:11, 6 April 2007 (UTC))

Raymond, I added 'prominent' because it seemed appropriate. I came to that point of view reading some articles that deemed them such. But obviously you're the man, you're the guy dishing out the nobel prize in science and the like so I'll leave it at your discretion! --Dean1970 04:18, 6 April 2007 (UTC)

Dean, again we must remind you to maintain civility. --Skyemoor 11:51, 6 April 2007 (UTC)

What skyemoor means is that on Wikipedia it is a custom for members to find a more subtle way of dissing people. :) The machine512 14:01, 6 April 2007 (UTC)

Hi Dean, what is the status of this dispute? Have your concerns been resolved? --Tjsynkral 23:13, 7 April 2007 (UTC)

Tjsynkral, Hi, apparently its against the rules to make an edit on the pages of the participants of this film that will mention their involvement! I should edit this page and delete any reference of Martin Durkin being involved... come to think of it, did Channel Four actually air it? --Dean1970 07:03, 8 April 2007 (UTC)

I don't see why theres such a big deal about making edits like that, but I'm not getting into a 3rr tug-of-war over it. --Dean1970 07:07, 8 April 2007 (UTC)

POV

Due to a number of unresolved self-published source issues in this article and accusations from both sides of censorship, POV flag is up. Let's please clear up the issues, in particular the William M. Connolly (any possibility of administrator privilege?) self-published source violation regarding his blog entry being used as a source for a contentious statement. I feel this statement could be made without relying on a WP admin's personal blog as a source. Can we possibly source any primary sources directly on this? --Tjsynkral 00:54, 7 April 2007 (UTC)

If your concern is with a single unsourced statement, why tag the entire article instead of that one statement, or the section it appears in? Raymond Arritt 00:58, 7 April 2007 (UTC)

I removed the cite and between three POV-pushing users it was agressively reverted back in. And as I said, the issue I have with the article is not the only issue presently being discussed. Also: I will thank you in advance not to uphold your personal trend of removing good-faith tags until a consensus has been reached, as doing so is considered vandalism. --Tjsynkral 01:19, 7 April 2007 (UTC)

I have removed the flag as I am not a contributor to RC and have put the material up. Any further insistence on this ploy constitutes further disruptive editting. --Skyemoor 10:19, 7 April 2007 (UTC)

Your arbitrary decision is not binding. Consensus has not been reached, so it is inappropriate to remove the POV flag. You have been warned for vandalism. --Tjsynkral 23:05, 7 April 2007 (UTC)

Given your impressive knowledge of Wikipedia policy and your strict adherence to it, how did you miss this part of WP:VANDAL: "Please note that placing or removal of dispute tags does not count as simple vandalism." Raymond Arritt 00:07, 8 April 2007 (UTC)

Stop taking Wikipedia policy out of context - full quote, "Please note that placing or removal of dispute tags does not count as simple vandalism, and therefore the reverting of such edits is not exempt from the three-revert rule." This note applies solely to 3RR. It still very much counts as vandalism, otherwise why is it listed under "Types of vandalism"? --Tjsynkral 22:36, 11 April 2007 (UTC)

Also, for your information, your edit summary stated this:

"(I have inserted material on RC, so this is not an issue with WMC. WP:SPS does not affect me)"

This is incorrect. WP:SPS disallows insertion of a self-published source even if you are not the one who wrote it. The same holds for me - I could not cite Rush Limbaugh's personal blog for his views on Global Warming and get away with it just because I'm not Rush. --Tjsynkral 23:11, 7 April 2007 (UTC

Tjsynkral - please read the exceptions for self-published sources at WP:SPS#Exceptions. You seem to have a misconception of the rule. --Kim D. Petersen 00:40, 8 April 2007 (UTC)

I did - and I think that the article fails both reasons not to allow a "professional researcher exception" - first, a reliable source could be substituted for the SPS, and second, the article does not have any evidence of being independently fact-checked, and to the contrary appears to be something that WMC could have posted on a whim. In fact, the authors' names do not even appear on the article - it is only signed "By William and Gavin" - atrocious. --Tjsynkral 00:46, 8 April 2007 (UTC)

I can understand your dismay, given that RealClimate has such a large number of editors named "William" and "Gavin." Very confusing indeed. Raymond Arritt 00:54, 8 April 2007 (UTC)

Tjsynkral, we've been over this subject before and put it to rest. Your continued rehashing of old complaints is disruptive. --Skyemoor 01:08, 8 April 2007 (UTC)

It's only disruptive to people who claim ownership of the page and do not want its content to reflect consensus. Re-adding the tag. Per WP:VANDAL:

Dispute tags are an important way for people to show that there are problems with the page. Do not remove them unless you are sure that all stated reasons for the dispute are settled. As a general rule, do not remove other people's dispute tags twice during a 24 hour period.

I won't hesitate to open an incident on vandalism if this POV pushing and premature tag removal continues. Also: The dispute over POV includes at least two issues: The RealClimate blog SPS problem, and the removal of information about the contributors to the film addressed above. Neither issue has reached consensus yet. --Tjsynkral 02:25, 8 April 2007 (UTC)

Can you clarify what is meant by "removal of information about the contributors to the film addressed above"? There has been some discussion about removing mentions of TGGWS in some contributor bios, but those are different articles from this one. It doesn't seem helpful to tag the present article because of disagreements over other articles. If you meant something else, please point it out as specifically as possible, so it can be addressed. As for vandalism, you can try WP:AIV or maybe WP:ANI. Raymond Arritt 02:49, 8 April 2007 (UTC)

POV section break 1

I would be willing to offer this compromise: This paragraph

Climate scientists William Connolley and Gavin Schmidt write in the RealClimate blog that the programme selectively used data that was sometimes decades old in making its arguments, altered graphs to make it appear that older observations had been made more recently, and used older scientific studies when more recent research would have disagreed with the film's conclusions. (Ref RC blog)

is unacceptable for WP:SPS reasons. However if the problems with accuracy of the data should be mentioned in the article, the Independent link (currently ref 6) says basically the same thing. Why don't we remove mention of WMC and Gavin Schmidt and RealClimate, and instead use the Independent article as the foundation for this statement? I hope if nothing else, that this compromise makes it clear that my goal for the article is factual accuracy and reliable sources - not to "cover up" anything. --Tjsynkral 03:32, 8 April 2007 (UTC)

The subject of WP:SPS was addressed above in "Be aware of WP:SPS". Your reopening of that subject, like many other points you attempt to reopen and argue all over again, is disruptive. There is no need to remove references to two climate scientists and replace it with a link to a newspaper article, though there is no reason the newspaper article reference can be added. You've shown no compelling rationale to support the claim that your suggestion is in any way improving the article's "factual accuracy and reliable sources". --Skyemoor 10:55, 8 April 2007 (UTC)

For the moment I'll leave it to others to comment on the proposed compromise, but I'd still appreciate clarification of "removal of information about the contributors to the film addressed above" since that appears to be the other major point of contention. That will need to be addressed as well. Raymond Arritt 03:37, 8 April 2007 (UTC)

That's actually User:Dean1970's dispute, not mine. I'm awaiting his comment. --Tjsynkral 03:42, 8 April 2007 (UTC)

POV section break 2

Also, the citation of John Houghton is a personal website article [7]. I do not accept the inclusion of a personal website article under the same WP:SPS reason. This posting is not fact-checked, and I'm certain we can do better at finding a WP:RS on this. So this objection remains, and even if the above compromise is accepted there is still an issue with the John Houghton link. --Tjsynkral 03:42, 8 April 2007 (UTC)

Houghton's statement is a clear example of what WP:RS specifically allows: Houghton's statement is useful as a source for what Houghton thinks; "what Houghton thinks" is of interest in and of itself because of his relation to the IPCC. Note the material is couched specifically in those terms. Had the material been used in a general way, without the specific context of summarizing Houghton's views, you might have a point. Raymond Arritt 03:59, 8 April 2007 (UTC)

Can it be made certain that this is the same guy who is writing this, and not a poser? The domain of personal web pages makes falsified identity a possibility. Also, I believe the section on Houghton ought to be smaller and further down the page, so as not to give undue weight to the opinion of someone who no longer represents the IPCC as expressed on his personal web page. --Tjsynkral 04:43, 8 April 2007 (UTC)

"Can it be made certain that this is the same guy who is writing this, and not a poser?" You're really stretching here; careful you don't pull a muscle. Houghton is sufficiently prominent, and his statement so widely reported, that the likelihood of the statement being spurious and going undetected is less than zero. Raymond Arritt 05:05, 8 April 2007 (UTC)

I'll have to trust you on that - although we're still left with the undue weight problem. This person is entitled to his opinion, but he hasn't got the same relevance or trustworthiness as someone who is still a member of the IPCC today. --Tjsynkral 05:59, 8 April 2007 (UTC)

Note that the IPCC Fourth Assessment Report hadn't been released at the time the film was made. The report of standing -- and thus the report relevant to TGGWS -- was the Third Assessment Report. (Surely you'll grant that they weren't discussing a report that didn't yet exist.) Since Houghton was first author for Working Group I of that report, his views arguably are more important than those of the AR4 authors. Raymond Arritt 06:43, 8 April 2007 (UTC)

I also have concerns about the BAS page. It has no author. Is it possible the unsigned article is actually authored by User:William_M._Connolley? I certainly am not claiming SPS on it, but I would like to know. --Tjsynkral 04:43, 8 April 2007 (UTC)

It's a "BAS statement" and is attributed as such. I don't know who actually wrote it, and it doesn't matter. As an official statement of the organization it is irrelevant who actually wrote it, be that WMC, the director of BAS, or the night watchman. If you have any suspicion that the statement may be forged you can get in touch with the BAS. The contact points for their press office are given here. Raymond Arritt 05:05, 8 April 2007 (UTC)

I also believe the WMC blog material should be replaced with a more reliable source; an exception is just that, for exceptional circumstances, and given issues of COI and that there is a wide swath of other reliable sources for criticism of this film, I don't believe we should be applying the exception here. - Merzbow 06:28, 8 April 2007 (UTC)

On what basis do you presume the material to be unreliable? As it agrees with a source you prefer, why not both, since they reinforce each other? --Skyemoor 13:22, 8 April 2007 (UTC)

It cannot be COI since several editors (not WMC) want it on the page. Otherwise you are saying that RC cannot be used on climate related pages - since WMC is around. Raise your COI concerns here. --Kim D. Petersen 09:08, 8 April 2007 (UTC)

Hmmm seems that one is about to closed - but i still urge you to read it, and User:Durovas conclusion. --Kim D. Petersen 09:14, 8 April 2007 (UTC)

POV section break 3

All this talk of SPS ignores "When a well-known, professional researcher writing within his or her field of expertise, or a well-known professional journalist, has produced self-published material, these may be acceptable as sources, so long as his or her work has been previously published by credible, third-party publications.". RealClimate satisfies WP:RS. -- THF 13:34, 8 April 2007 (UTC)

This is the section you omitted, you... omitter.

Editors should exercise caution for two reasons: first, if the information on the professional researcher's blog (or self-published equivalent) is really worth reporting, a reliable source will probably have covered it; secondly, the information has been self-published, which means it has not been subject to independent fact-checking.

Once again, RealClimate is dangerous because it is not subject to independent fact-checking. If the information is worth reporting, a reliable source will probably have covered it. --Tjsynkral 16:12, 8 April 2007 (UTC)

You have a point there. Blogs/diaries can be subject to heavy POV. The machine512 17:54, 8 April 2007 (UTC)

The only thing RC has been cited for is that fact that RC said something. What fact-checking is needed for that? I don't think there's any dispute that an RC post accurately reflects the views of its authors. -- THF 16:58, 8 April 2007 (UTC)

But hundreds of blogs have commented on TGGWS. Why are we quoting this one? Iceage77 18:43, 8 April 2007 (UTC)

WP:COI The machine512 19:03, 8 April 2007 (UTC)

Good point - there are surely many blogs out there that say TGGWS is the greatest thing since sliced bread. Aren't we obligated to include those also? And I'm speaking of blogs by published scholars, so it meets THEIR interpretation of the WKPR exception. --Tjsynkral 18:47, 8 April 2007 (UTC)

RC satisfies the WP:RS criterion of "well-known, professional researcher writing within his or her field of expertise." If you can find pro-TGGWS blogs that also satisfy this criterion, please give links so we can consider them for inclusion. Raymond Arritt 18:51, 8 April 2007 (UTC)

I will ask your group to once again stop omitting parts of the rule - also acceptable, and apparently as you feel without any scrutiny whatsoever as is the standard you want us to apply to RC, is "a well-known professional journalist." So any such journalist's blog is fair game, if we're keeping to the same standard. Of course, if in the case of RealClimate and William M. Connolley you wish to apply a double standard, feel free to admit it. --Tjsynkral 19:21, 8 April 2007 (UTC)

TJ, read the rule again. "If A or B" does not require both A and B to be satisfied. RC meets WP:RS because it is written by a "well-known, professional researcher writing within his or her field of expertise." There's no separate additional requirement of being a professional journalist. -- THF 23:50, 8 April 2007 (UTC)

I didn't suggest that at all. What I'm saying is that if ANYTHING by a WKPR is okay, then ANYTHING by a WKPJ must also be okay. Which means that Rush Limbaugh etc. could make blog postings about TGGWS and they would be allowed - nay, obligated - to appear in the article by your standards. --Tjsynkral 02:00, 9 April 2007 (UTC)

If Rush Limbaugh makes a notable blog posting about TGGWS that adds new information not readily available through other reliable sources, then, yes, it could be included, perhaps in a "Reactions from American media" section. Readers can choose for themselves how much to weigh Limbaugh's words on his blog versus those of climatologists on their blog. I don't see Rush Limbaugh's blog posts as substantially different than George Monbiot's columns, and the latter is certainly well represented in the article. -- THF 02:28, 9 April 2007 (UTC)

How about the New Zealand Climate Science Coalition? Iceage77 19:18, 8 April 2007 (UTC)

That's not a blog. That's a list of links. To the extent the underlying links meet WP:RS, like this one does, place them in if they're not already there and aren't cumulative. -- THF 23:50, 8 April 2007 (UTC)

POV section break 4

Are we supposed to take seriously the comments of a "scientist" who makes edits like these?

Diff 1 20:23, 8 April 2007

Diff 2 20:43, 8 April 2007

I don't believe classifying the film as "propaganda" classifies as WP:NPOV. As long as this kind of behavior continues the POV dispute tag is present for good reason. --Tjsynkral 21:50, 8 April 2007 (UTC)

He's made this edit several times before. Totally inappropriate especially for an admin. Iceage77 21:53, 8 April 2007 (UTC)

I found those edits very inappropriate and complained about them a couple of weeks ago. It is especially poor conduct from an admin, and I was disappointed that other admins care so little about that sort of behavior. Nevertheless the fact that an editor makes poor edits from time to time does not damn all of his other edits, it does not make an article POV if the POV edits have been undone, and does it not mean that the blog he writes for does not meet WP:RS. -- THF 23:55, 8 April 2007 (UTC)

Personal attack removed. Please discuss how to improve the article, not those editing the article. Walter Siegmund (talk) 18:08, 9 April 2007 (UTC)

This is a perfectly logical response to an editor disruptively going against the consensus. TF was a part of this consensus, and simply came back later with this disruptive edit. I would expect the editors above to complain about TF's disruptiveness first; the complete silence on this and the dramatic attention paid to WMC's response demonstrates the lack of POV shown by said group of editors. I will reinstate the consensus language. ––Skyemoor 02:05, 9 April 2007 (UTC)

I didn't change the "controversial documentary" language. Please don't make false accusations. There was a falsely sourced statement in the lead paragraph, and once it was correctly sourced, it was barely notable; it arguably doesn't belong in the article at all, but it certainly doesn't belong in the lead section. See WP:Lead section. And no one objected to it or even tried to revert it -- I certainly would not have reverted if someone reverted me; I made a good-faith attempt to improve the article. -- THF 02:29, 9 April 2007 (UTC)

(edit conflict) You went way beyond what was needed to correct the source of the quote and countermanded a painstakingly arrived at consensus which culminated in a straw poll All those in favour of "controversial documentary film", with the "polemic" quote somewhere in the lead, say Aye. Those opposed say Nay[8] The proposed language was adopted -- you even voted for it. Then you came back and moved the quote so that it was no longer "somewhere in the lead", which was a specific part of the consensus. Why do we even bother, when people do things like this? Raymond Arritt 02:42, 9 April 2007 (UTC)

You were a party to the consensus discussion, so don't act like you don't know how disruptive you were. Simply read the consensus discussion to see your name prominently listed. Your 'good faith attempt' to improve the article purposefully clashed with consensus. --Skyemoor 02:40, 9 April 2007 (UTC)

WP:BB WP:CCC WP:AGF and WP:CIV. --Tjsynkral 02:47, 9 April 2007 (UTC)

Okay, sorry for the confusion, it was an honest mistake. I hadn't realized that someone else had removed "polemic" from the first sentence. Can't you find a better source, though? Who cares what a "source at Channel 4" says? -- THF 02:44, 9 April 2007 (UTC)

Personal attacks removed. Please discuss how to improve the article, not those editing the article. Walter Siegmund (talk) 18:08, 9 April 2007 (UTC)

The current source says a spokesman. I'm not sure what the previous source said, but I think spokesman is good enough for representation of the channel. But that's just my opinion. ~ UBeR 18:56, 9 April 2007 (UTC)

I'm okay with the current cite (which I put in). A spokesman is speaking for the channel at its authorization and is notable; an anonymous source is just a leak. -- THF 19:19, 9 April 2007 (UTC)

Please note that my "vote for the consensus" reflected the fact that I had assumed good faith that the quoted language complied with WP:V. When the verification failed, I asked for someone to fix the cite; when instead, the language was changed in such a manner that violated WP:Lead section, I moved the quote. I'd like to collaborate, but there is a real WP:OWN problem going on here. -- THF 21:14, 9 April 2007 (UTC)

Whether or not the removal of "polemic" was a tendentious edit, it wouldn't excuse WMC's tendentious edits in response. Two wrongs don't make a right. He could have just reverted to the original version that included "polemic." Geoffrey Allan Plauche 02:28, 11 May 2007 (UTC)

New Opening Paragraph Suggestion

'The Great Global Warming Swindle' is a documentary developed by WagTv Productions*. The film explores the relationship between science, the media and the public. The film and their official website claims that mainstream media coverage of man made global warming is hyped up on TV, radio and in the press, and is largely uncritical. The film shows examples of futuristic global warming predictions aired on the BBC using scientifically absurd images. The film makers claim that one of the curious aspects of the global warming alarm is the persistent reluctance of some climate scientists to consider the role of the sun, claiming that the influence of solar activity on Earths climate through warm and cold periods has a long proven recorded history - long before human industrialisation. The film also claims that the ice-core data samples used in the documentary An Inconvenient Truth that is used as "the jewel in the crown" by man made warming theorists showing CO2 as driving the climate is actually the other way around. The film makers also question the IPCC consensus, the claim that the ‘the world’s top scientists’ all agree argument, that is used to bully scientists from openly disagreeing and stifle media critisism. The film questions why has a theory which lacks really solid supporting evidence become an undisputable fact? --THE END--

• ((original channel, airdate and creator is now cited in infobox)).

Critisism and analysis has a lengthy section, words like 'propaganda, one-sided, controversial, polemic and lop-sided' can be edited there. This is an encyclopedia, and should begin with expaining what the film makers present as their facts. Some of their claims are not all ready covered in the present article. Also, refer to their official website if you dispute what they claim.

The Carl Wunsch 'duped' affair also has it's own section, it doesn't have to be repeated everywhere.

I'm not implying my suggestion be taken word for word, it can fixed to make it more readable (its just an idea). I am being neutral. Also, check their website if you dispute their claims.

Also, I believe the 'neutrality tag' should remain until reasonable requests and disputes (by both camps) are resolved. --Dean1970 22:33, 9 April 2007 (UTC)

The current introduction complies with WP:Lead section, which does require summarization of prominent controversies. I don't see your proposal as a substantive improvement, even if one were to correct the grammar and spelling. Can you identify specific violations of NPOV that you believe merit a tag? Also, please review ITS carefully. -- THF 23:04, 9 April 2007 (UTC)

We've already made a consensus that we should call the film a controversial documentary with the word "polemic" coming from a Channel 4 source within the lead. I recognize consensuses change, but controversial simply implies that it has been disputed or there is some sort of controversy or contention surrounding it. There is no problem with stating this fact. ~ UBeR 01:00, 10 April 2007 (UTC)

Fascinatingly enough, An Inconvenient Truth has also been called a polemic. -- THF 01:20, 10 April 2007 (UTC)

I didn't add 'controversial' before 'documentary'. I kept mind to keep it in a brief synopsis I suggested before (also, apologies for grammar and spelling, I'm working on both).

The brief synopsis I edited before was something similar, It was [rightly] pointed out to me that some of it was already covered. But some of it wasn't, the fact that this late night Channel Four film takes aim at conclusions/claims/results of an Oscar winning documentary isn't even mentioned until you scroll down to media reaction and find Monbiots' arguments on Hockey Stick Graphs. Also, in the synopsis section I touched on claims that the film makers viewed as media manipulation of science by hyping man made global warming with apocalyptic documentaries (I did not personally politicise that in my edit, I merely added it was a BBC documentary), and that the film makers claim that hours and hours of such programming are devoted in an uncritical and fawning (their words, not mine) manner by the media on the subject of AGW. I did watch the documentary online, a couple of times, and having viewed the pages of many documentaries covered by Wikipedia I saw no reason that adding a synopsis type section with claims made in this film would be an issue.

As for the TAG, I retract what I said earlier, I really don't care if it stays or goes, the reason I said that was because there is a dispute over COI which really doesn't concern me, it concerns some of the editors who I have found to be agreeable and fair, so I was just sticking up for them by saying it. --Dean1970 05:56, 10 April 2007 (UTC)

p.s. I also added that WagTv productions developed the film. (for if and when they have a wikilink). --Dean1970 06:00, 10 April 2007 (UTC)

I would like the airing date to appear somewhere in the article, preferably in the opening paragraph. It is information I missed when reading it. Elamere 10:34, 11 April 2007 (UTC)

The Great Global Warming Swindle - is this a bias write-up?

I was reading this as I need information for my coursework which goes against the theory of global warming. This article seems to build on the sides of critiscim of the theories and doesn't give a fair showing of the programme. I know that they should be in the global warming controversies section, but this almost removes all credibility of the C4 programme. Thanks St91 17:42, 14 April 2007 (UTC)

Are you proposing we delete the criticism? That doesn't seem fair. I don't quite understand what you want. ~ UBeR 19:07, 14 April 2007 (UTC)

This is Wikipedia... it's apparently a sin to write anything negative about Global Warming here. --Tjsynkral 19:49, 14 April 2007 (UTC)

St91, always take information from Wikipedia (more-so from controversial topics) with a very large grain of salt. There are many POV pushers here who have a full time job of sitting at home all day reflecting their bias into an encyclopedia (a traditionally trustworthy source) and guarding the articles like watchdogs. Very unfortunate. The machine512 21:38, 14 April 2007 (UTC)

Also, it is pretty humorous to compare how The Great Global Warming Swindle and An Inconvenient Truth are written. This article buried in borderline slander, while AIT gets pampered and praised. It demonstrates the bias pretty well. The machine512 22:12, 14 April 2007 (UTC)

If you don't like the article as it stands, it's easy enough to fix. Quote endorsements of the film by major scientific bodies, leading scientists and so on. List the awards it has won or been nominated for, note favourable comment on previous work by the filmmaker, focusing particularly on his commitment to honest reporting, and the successful resolution of any previous complaints similar to those of Professor Wunsch. Need I go on?JQ 00:14, 15 April 2007 (UTC)

I think the article as it stands is a fair summary of reaction to the programme by respected sources. If you think that this 'removes all credibility of the C4 programme' you may have a point, but the fact is that almost no scientist (other than the ones interviewed in the programme) backs the programme's conclusions. Even the people interviewed in the programme don't necessarily back anything except the specific parts of the programme they were interviewed in; I'm not convinced how broadbased the support for the 'cosmic ray' theory would be among the interviewees, for example. Carl Wunsch actively disagrees with the film's conclusions even for the part of the programme he was interviewed for. Unfortunately I think it's fair to say that Durkin, whatever his undoubted talents as a film maker, is not a scientist, and he does not represent the arguments fairly. It's a very persuasively put together piece of television, but if you scratch the surface and have a look at the arguments used, they don't stand up at all well to scrutiny. The most obvious parts are the use of one old and very specifically chosen temperature graph, rather than a standard one, which would be better for several reasons, but in particular would include the very significant warming that's happened in the last twenty years; the claim that volcanoes emit more CO2 than humans (volcanic emissions are a hundredth of human emissions, according to multiple independent sources); use of Wunsch's interview to support the claim that rises in temperature cause CO2 rises rather than the other way round (when Wunsch actually believes that CO2 does cause temperature rises; he was trying to say that the feedback loop that happens when warmer oceans start emitting CO2 made the situation much more dangerous); and use of old atmospheric temperature data, when authoritative studies, published in the last couple of years, state that the old anomalies can be explained. Durkin also appears to have somewhat exaggerated the dangers of cooking fires, and he ignores the fact that developing countries are specifically excluded from the Kyoto Protocol. How much credibility this leaves the programme with... well, I'll leave that for you to decide. I think it's good that we're having the debate, but unfortunately I think the programme adds to confusion about global warming rather than understanding. --Merlinme 17:20, 16 April 2007 (UTC)

Should the reaction have a page titled The Great Global Warming Swindle Reaction of scientists who agree with the scientific assessment of global warming or something? Perhaps its not the wiki article on this documentry's place to refute it, but to provide the information about it and let others go to other wiki articles as they please like global warming or what have you. I don't agree with Al Gore's little fantacy movie, but that doesn't mean I want it mucked up like this article has become.--Zeeboid 21:19, 16 April 2007 (UTC)

"If you don't like the article as it stands, it's easy enough to fix. Quote endorsements of the film by major scientific bodies, leading scientists and so on. List the awards it has won or been nominated for, note favourable comment on previous work by the filmmaker, focusing particularly on his commitment to honest reporting, and the successful resolution of any previous complaints similar to those of Professor Wunsch. Need I go on?" (with apologies for borrowing ;-) --Stephan Schulz 21:41, 16 April 2007 (UTC)

Merlinme - Thats your opinion, and you're entitled to it. Durkin uses his documentary to highlight "a very persuasively put together piece of television" from the likes of the BBC who devote hours of air-time to the causes (and future consequences, because they're time travellers at the beeb) of man made global warming. Which is more absurd? WagTV with their little production company producing a solitary 75 minute programme questioning the IPCC and questioning via a series of interviews with 'sceptics' as to what they see as the orthodoxy of alarmists who will quickly liken anyone who disagrees with them as 'holocaust deniers,' or a worldwide media outlet like the beeb 'Hollywoodising' man made global warming? Think about it. And then there is Durkin himself, well he has made crud before so he is still at it. Ok, fair enough, I'll personally admit to never hearing of Mr Durkin before he made this programme, I've never seen any of his other programmes so I can't dispute you or anyone else there. So his detractors use his prior record as a 'yard stick' to ridicule him, Miliband accuses him of spreading 'conspiracy theories,' Ohh great, a guy who voted strongly for the Iraq War and very strongly against 'investigating the Iraq War' (because theres no conspiracy there either) accuses Durkin of what? Being untruthful? I guess theres no pollution being produced in Middle East conflicts you vote for and here, have this personal carbon ration while you're at it because we have to save the planet. Then there is the much vaunted Monbiot, a guy who criss-crosses the planet via aircraft to launch his new book telling everyone else they better 'give up flying,' do a YouTube search on him and see him at one of his many book launches stating that 'having your neighbour over for a cup of tea or picking your kids up from school in your car is seen as moral today, but it will be immoral tomorrow' he is basically sticking his nose into peoples energy consumption, if boiling a kettle is murdering the planet in his eyes he needs to open them. His pollution issues only extend to other people. Man made Global Warming is going to be used as an excuse to do anything, from boiling a kettle to buying a car, to how many flights you take a year to telling other countries to lay off their resourses and Lord help any film maker who happens to make a documentary that goes against the grain of the afore mentioned Oracles! The fact is, the Sun controls the climate, if its cloudy its cooler, if the sky is clear the chances are it'll be warmer, we as humans are impacting the climate no where in relation to the Sun, not even close, absolutley not even close in any way. btw, there is volcanic activty on the ocean floor, some of it undetected. --Dean1970 22:51, 16 April 2007 (UTC) apologies for spelling and grammer. --Dean1970 22:51, 16 April 2007 (UTC)

Who cares about the size and resources of the maker? The movie is crap. It's not crap because it's cheap, it's crap because it massively misrepresents our state of knowledge. And that's not just the opinion of Monbiot and Milbrand, but of any number of other observers, including e.g. the Royal Society and Carl Wunsch. What this article does is documenting, not inventing, these opinions.--Stephan Schulz 23:10, 16 April 2007 (UTC)

Carl Wunsch was duped, ok. The film also exposes the IPCC as the shower of crap lying scoundrels they are with regards to Paul Reiter. --Dean1970 23:19, 16 April 2007 (UTC)

btw, their size and resourses (small independent TV comapany) makes them a very green company in my eyes. They should be congratulated for producing a quality documentary with meagre resourses. WagTV gets 'two very big thumbs up' for enviromentally friendly! --Dean1970 23:21, 16 April 2007 (UTC)

Well, I don't know if they ever produce quality documentaries. This one isn't. And I won't call unloading crap onto the public airwaves environmentally friendly. --Stephan Schulz 23:28, 16 April 2007 (UTC)

We're not really supposed to be discussing the subject of the article here- we're supposed to be discussing how to improve the article- but I guess I started it to some extent. Anyway, Dean1970, I'm not an enormous fan of Monbiot, and I do believe in having a sensible debate about global warming. However my main problem with TGGWS is that it is so far from reality that it doesn't really contribute to the debate at all. I believe in science; I also believe in assessing scientists' motivations rather than believing them unquestioningly. But almost no scientists agree with Durkin. No-one denies that the Sun affects the weather; but it's also true that almost no-one denies that raised CO2 levels should increase temperature, and very few disagree that raised CO2 levels are changing our climate; TGGWS just muddies the waters on this. Debate about what to do is good; wilfully confusing the science is not.--Merlinme 00:08, 17 April 2007 (UTC)

There is plenty of rubbish on public airwaves alright, far worse than this documentary. Merlinme - I have not added edits to this article (apart from tidy up edits) for a few days. I've come to realise a few things about Wikipedia. Yesterday I did 'tidy up' some edits but I also added a 'citation needed' tag on links I couldn't reach, I notice they've been added again and the links are broken or maybe its my computer....but its no big deal. My point is this, the 5 pillars of wikipedia can have at this article to their hearts content, the infobox with a link to their official website is untouchable so at least people viewing this article can research their claims where Wikipedia fails : ) --Dean1970 00:46, 17 April 2007 (UTC)

What ought to be clear by now is that any article that presents evidence based on verifiable citations from reputable sources will lead readers to the conclusion that TGGWS is itself a swindle, made by someone with a long track record of dishonest behavior. Editors who regard TGGWS as being "on their side" can fight as hard as they like to exclude or downplay references to the scientific facts denied in the film, statements by scientists and scientific bodies pointing out that it's a pack of lies and so on. It won't do any good. As St91 said right at the top, an article produced in line with the rules of Wikipedia inevitably removes all credibility of the C4 programme. In doing so, it fulfils the function of an encyclopedia. JQ 08:34, 18 April 2007 (UTC)

I didn't mean for all of this to come about, but never mind! Thanks everyone, I read all the points but still think what I said at the top. Thanks again St91 18:37, 23 April 2007 (UTC).

Paragraph about T before CO2....

This one:

• The correlation between carbon dioxide levels and temperatures demonstrated by Al Gore in An Inconvenient Truth, while true, show that carbon dioxide increased after the increase in temperatures. Hence, it cannot be true that the rise in carbon dioxide levels causes an increase in temperature.

Does the movie actually say this? As far as i can recall it doesn't. It doesn't say that it cannot be true - but just that you cannot draw a conclusion from the data. Ian Clark isn't dumb - he is hinting - and trying to make you draw the conclusion instead of him saying it plainly. The correct wording would be "Hence, implying that a rise in CO2 cannot" instead of "Hence, it cannot be true that". (the section is from around 22 minutes in - and around 2 minutes long. Listen to the people Singer doesn't say so - Clark doesn't say so (notice the tense in Clarkes statement) - and the narrator doesn't say so). Ball comes very close to saying it - but doesn't. --Kim D. Petersen 21:26, 17 April 2007 (UTC)

An exact quote from Ian Clark in the film at about 22 mins: "CO2 clearly cannot be causing temperature changes. It's a product of temperature. It's following temperature changes." Seems like hes is saying just that. The machine512 21:41, 17 April 2007 (UTC)

And since he is talking about the geological record - then its also correct - if you can show me that he is clearly talking about the current T/CO2 record - then i'll drop this. The trouble here is between what the movie "implies" versus what it actually "says". --Kim D. Petersen 22:19, 17 April 2007 (UTC)

Firstly, why would we have reason to believe that Ian Clark's views on the role of CO2 are different for modern times than historic? Secondly, whether it is heavily implied or stated bluntly, it is a claim made in the film (even if it was a fault of editing as you are suggesting) and should be treated as so. The machine512 23:14, 17 April 2007 (UTC)

Because it is WP:OR - you can state exactly what the movie says - but not what you imply from it. In this case it is strongly implied - and should be related as such. The above statement can only be supported with the assumption that Clark is talking about the current timeframe - but in the movie segment he (and all the others) are talking about the geological timeframe. --Kim D. Petersen 23:32, 17 April 2007 (UTC)

WP:OR? If that is OR, then every statement aside from a direct quote is OR, which constitutes 90% of wikipedia. Maybe we should then quote Ian Clark in that paragraph if it will clarify things. What do you think? The machine512 00:25, 18 April 2007 (UTC)

Also, we seem to have the same point being made right after each other (after the anon's rearrange). They seem to be saying the same thing about CO2 and temperature rise, but the latter doesn't mention AIT. ~ UBeR 16:46, 18 April 2007 (UTC)

As the sentence stands right now - i have no problems with it. Calling into question is accurate. The rearrange is also reasonable considering the movie - as the sequence about the oceans follow immediatly after the ice-core CO2/T one. (btw. where was AIT mentioned?). --Kim D. Petersen 18:31, 18 April 2007 (UTC)

I was talking abut these two points:

• The correlation between carbon dioxide levels and temperatures demonstrated by Al Gore in An Inconvenient Truth, while true, show that carbon dioxide increased after the increase in temperatures—calling into question the claim that that the rise in carbon dioxide levels are the cause of the observed increases in temperature.

• Carbon dioxide levels increase or decrease due to temperatures increasing or decreasing rather than temperatures following carbon dioxide levels, because the Earth's oceans absorb carbon dioxide when they are cooler, and release it when they are warmer. Due to the large oceanic mass it takes decades or centuries for the reaction to temperature changes to occur, which is why analysis of the Vostok Station and other ice cores shows that changes in the level of atmospheric carbon dioxide follow changes in global temperature, with a lag of 800 years.

~ UBeR 18:54, 18 April 2007 (UTC)

Is this in the transcript or are you creating WP:OR? If it's in the transcript, list it as a claim. If it's not in the transcript, it has no place here. --Skyemoor 20:22, 21 April 2007 (UTC)

• Just to Note: the transcript linked below (supplied by Merlinme) isn't 100% reliable. --Dean1970 21:14, 21 April 2007 (UTC) Apologies if you're referring to another transcript.

In many respects, this question is key to the whole debate over global warming. This is the one question that MUST be handled with attention to detail and without agendas. If the CO2 followed the warming, then GW advocates are plainly wrong. If warming followed CO2, then GW advocates have a solid case. Early on in the article, IPCC co-Chair John T. Houghton criticizes the film but "acknowledges that ice core samples show CO2 driven by temperature". Other references to this issue are either ambiguous or are not expanded. Yet criticism of less important evidence are given greater attention. Surely if CO2 is the axis around which the whole debate revolves, the platform from which all else begins, then the question of chicken or egg has to be given far less flippant attention. --Aspong 14:55, 15 May 2007 (UTC)

Your chicken-and-egg analogy is apt: increased CO2 can cause warming, and warming can cause increased CO2. Therefore the natural lag between CO2 and warming in ice age cycles is irrelevant to present climate change, because we are adding CO2 to the system via non-natural processes. Raymond Arritt 15:07, 15 May 2007 (UTC)

Thanks Ray, but the lag shows that warming produces CO2, not the other way around. If there is a lag as shown in the film, and as agreed by Houghton, then it shows that CO2 follows warming rather than the other way around. --Aspong 15:50, 15 May 2007 (UTC)

You're still missing the point, which is that it's not a simple one-way relationship. Here we have a case where A can cause B, but B can also cause A. The egg hatches to become the chicken, but the chicken lays the egg. Rising CO2 causes warming, but warming can cause a rise of CO2. These sorts of complicated multi-way relationships are what makes science interesting and enjoyable. Raymond Arritt 16:03, 15 May 2007 (UTC)

Transcript

(I've added this back in from the archive, because it's useful to have. The link is still valid.)

There's a sort of transcript here: [9]. It's been created by someone while watching the programme, and created specifically for the purposes of building a rebuttal, so I wouldn't trust its reliability 100%. However it's the best I can find (please let me know if you can find a better one). It's not a Reliable Source for linking against, however if you remember something from the programme and want to find out exactly who said what and when, I would have thought it would be reasonable to have a look at the transcript. Someone can always correct you if you it turns out to be inaccurate. Personally I used it to look up exactly who made the "death threats" quote. --Merlinme 16:49, 19 April 2007 (UTC)

Its accurate enough (at least it's been correct everytime i've checked) - but both for WP:RS and WP:NPOV it can't go onto the page - but its a good resource. --Kim D. Petersen 21:25, 19 April 2007 (UTC)

Paragraph on "theories" of CO2 as a greenhouse gas

Hi - I'm new at this, so you'll have to forgive me if I'm putting this comment in the wrong place. There is no "theory" about CO2 as a greenhouse gas (GHG). TGGWS acknowledges that CO2 is a GHG. I tried to update this paragraph in an edit, but it was reverted. Thus I would like to call to everyone's attention that the page would be improved with a paragraph that goes something like this: "Theories of global temperature increase due to an enhanced warming from greenhouse gas predict that the temperature higher in the troposphere should increase at the same rate as it has near the surface, but satellite and weather balloon data as of 2001[7] did not show this." I am open to suggestions for whether or not the "data as of 2001" information should be included, since this was stated in the Third Assessment Report. --VS 78 03:12, 20 April 2007 (UTC)

Request for Help

Hello, I would like arbitration or a moderator help on this but I don't know how. I'm watching as many of my edits to this page are eliminated almost immediately after I make them.

For example, User "William M. Connolly" left a warning on my talk page about 3RR. I didn't know what he was talking about until I examined the page and saw that he had reverted one of my edits. When I changed to what I thought was sincerely hoped was a reasonable compromise between what he wrote and what I wrote, he reverted the passage a second time, and this time Stephen Shultz left a "warning" on my talk page - even though I had essentially changed the page once, and Connolly has already reverted the section back to it's original state. It's almost like the claims of intolerance made in the film have come to life on this article about the film. --Corwin8 21:00, 22 April 2007 (UTC)

This is Williams' paragraph:

(Following inquiries, it emerged subsequent to the programme that the graph used to support this claim was twenty years old and with no clear source, and Durkin acknowledged that his staff had "mislabelled" the time axis, giving the erroneous impression that data ending at 1988 were valid through 2000. In later reruns, the graph was "corrected" by ending the data series at 1988.[6])

This is my paragraph:

This graph used in the programme's first airing was twenty years old with no clear source. Durkin acknowledged that the graph's time axis was "mislabelled", indicating that 1988 data was valid through 2000. The graph was corrected in subsequent showing by correctly ending the data series at 1988.[6])

While there is no significant difference in content, isn't my paragraph clearer? --Corwin8 21:17, 22 April 2007 (UTC)

I suspect the point is that there is more wrong with the graph than just the axis. It does not correspond to any well-known scientific study, but seems to come from OISM. However, this is only a conjecture, as we have no good source for that . Mislabelled without the quotes suggest an accidental act, and corrected suggests that the graph is now correct. Given the amount of crap in the movie, both a at best weakly supported conjectures. That said, I like your sentence structure. Could you live with your sentence and William's quote marks?

And I don't warn William about 3RR because he is very well aware of it, having been on the wrong side o it in his wilder early days, and having enforced it as an admin for quite a while. --Stephan Schulz 22:21, 22 April 2007 (UTC)

Actually, I haven't seen the graph. I'm attempting to clarify the original passage based on the original language without taking away or adding anything to it (regardless of the fact that the external reference is very wrong on the sunspots). I thought that the first sentence of the passage was one huge run-on sentence. A period is an excuse to pause, to take in the preceeding information, before moving onto the next thought.

Syntactically, the quote marks are ambiguous. "mislabeld" can be seen as if it wasn't mislabelled, and "corrected" can make it seem to mean it wasn't corrected - it's one of those things that is subject to the reader's interpretation and is usually interpreted in favor of the reader's bias (I'd love to continue this on my talk page if you like). This makes both sides of the argument look suspicious. But if you want to put the quote marks back in, yes, I can live that. This has already forced me to look more deeply inot the film than I originally intended

What got my goat was that William M. Connolley warned me about a 3RR on my talk page after I had made my first change, on my very first visit to this article, on my very first edit to that passage. William M. Connolley issues me a 3RR warning after I made one edit to a passage I had never edited before? I dunno - maybe he deliberately picks fights with people for no reason? Certainly his talk page hints at that. Maybe he is emotionally attached to the article - authors are like that, me included. I honestly don't know.

Gee, I try to make a neutral correction and people behave like pricked them with a pin. Honestly, the way I judge these things is by the nature of the debate. And the debate on this issue is rife with intolerance on both sides. Why is it that people that supress and insult the opposite side of the issue act like they have something to hide? Both sides of this debate act like that --Corwin8 23:20, 22 April 2007 (UTC)

As I wrote above, you stepped into a minefield. Global warming and related topics have been contentious at least since I joined Wikipedia. You have made a lot of edits in a short time (nothing wrong with this, of course!), and some of them can indeed be interpreted as 3RR-reverts. You have e.g. added stuff about Corbyn more than once. WP:3RR does not require three instances of the same edit, only 3 reverts (for a very expanded defintion of revert) to the page. --Stephan Schulz 23:35, 22 April 2007 (UTC)

First of all, you are asserting that there is no significant difference in content between the paras, so clearly this is not an important issue for you. Secondly, a 3RR warning is simply to make you aware of the rule and carries no implication that you are intending to break it. Don't forget that you began by removing rather more than you are saying now [10].

So: "corrected" is in quotes because of course the end result was still a bad graph - the programme deliberately used 20 year old data to avoid showing the recent increases in T. And it still has no source. Also your version of the para makes it seem like a spontaneous admission by Durkin - of course not - he only admitted it was faked after people complained William M. Connolley 08:39, 23 April 2007 (UTC)

William, please don't treat me like I'm a novice. First of all, since you issued a 3RR warning to me before I had even reverted anything, it came across as a pre-emptive threat - were you looking to pick a fight? Or does the idea of community edits make you upset? Secondly, your assertion that this is "clearly not an important issue" to me, is obviously, clearly, tragically wrong - if it was not important to me, why would I have been so active in discussing this for the past two days? Thirdly, your assertion that the program "deliberately" used 20 year old data is, at best, your attempt at being argumentative, and at worse an indication that you are too horribly biased to make even a pretense at a non-judgemental decision on this issue. Don't forget that you seem to have a long and angry history of this type of intolerance. Don't go accusing people of deliberately fudging data without have proof that it was, indeed, deliberate - that's what real scientists do, they verify. If the film was wrong in this regard, you doing the same thing makes you look blatantly hypocritical.

As I had written before, William, because of your obviously deep emotional attachment to this issue, aren't you are seeing all of this through the lens of your admitted bias and prejudice on this issue? You haven't even made a feeble attempt at presenting a NPOV, have you? You only want your opinions, and everyone else be damned? As I had written, I tend to judge these things based upon the nature of the debate. How can you reasonably expect others to see your point of view?

But, I find you last sentence the most interesting - "he only admitted it was faked after people complained". Can you provide proof that he used the word "faked"? Can you provide proof that it was a deliberate deception, in terms of a quote of otherwise? Because that's what real sceintists do - they look for proof. And it's hypocritical of you to do the exact same thing that you accuse Durkin of, isn't it? --Corwin8

You are asserting that there is no significant difference in content - and yet, somehow this is important to you? One or other statement must be wrong - most probably your assertion re sig diffs. Re fakery - you don't somehow re-label a graph by accident. Nor, with any number of reliable graphs available, do you accidentally end up with a graph that mysteriously ends up in 1988. You are bending over backwards to be generous to Durkin William M. Connolley 21:49, 23 April 2007 (UTC)

"Bending over backwards?" No, I am giving him a reasonable doubt. YOU are making a pointed accusation, based on - what? You wrote that Durkin "admitted that he faked it". That's a damming accusation. I await for your proof. Give me proof that he admitted that he faked it, and, believe me you'll be surprised at the impact it will have. --Corwin8 22:06, 23 April 2007 (UTC)

Oh come on. He "accidentally" found a graph ending in 1988 - and failed to think "oh dearie me, what happened to the last 18 years"? He "accidentally" changed all the x-axis labels? If you believe that, I have a bridge I can sell you... William M. Connolley 22:17, 23 April 2007 (UTC)

Oh, come on. Stop playing games, stop inventing fantasies. Show me the admission. Want to be famous? Or infamous? Show me proof. Back up your words. Don't be desperate - show me the admission. --Corwin8 22:56, 23 April 2007 (UTC)

I don't know about your standards, but by scientific standards, this is an admission: 'Mr Durkin admitted that his graphics team had extended the time axis along the bottom of the graph to the year 2000. "There was a fluff there," he said. [...] "The original NASA data was very wiggly-lined and we wanted the simplest line we could find"' [11]. I.e. not only did he had a "fluff" about the labelling, he also knowingly ignored a reliable, up-to-date source in favour of a misattributed ancient graph because the newer data was all "wiggly". --Stephan Schulz 23:13, 23 April 2007 (UTC)

Thanks, Steve. The referenced article from The Independent was very convincing - until the last two paragraphs set off alarm bells. First, the global cooling between 1940 and 1970 is hypothesized to be caused by industrial emissions of sulphate pollutants, but no cause/effect has been established. Second, I don't believe the last paragraph about sunspot activity at all (incidentally, there is a very strong correlation between sunspot activity and global temperatures). For me this challenges the entire article's credibility, which incidentally is not a scientific article - the author, Steve Connor is not unbiased on this subject and he is not writing news, he's writing editorials. Rather than repeating someone else's opinions as fact, I'm going to have to do my own original research and publish my findings. --Corwin8 01:07, 30 April 2007 (UTC)

"I'm going to have to do my own original research and publish my findings". Excellent idea. Can I suggest Nature and Science as publication outlets? Both would be very interested in a refutation of most of the climate science work done in the last decade. JQ 01:55, 30 April 2007 (UTC)

NPOV.

The page as it stands in mostly an attack of the film--what is the film really saying-an outline would be nice, ect. The current page should be changed to 'Criticism of The Great Global Swindle' and a new page started.

Funnily enough, I agree with your tag, but from the opposite side, so you're welcome to it. This page is far too kind to the film William M. Connolley 08:15, 27 April 2007 (UTC)

Ok...but there is no sense of what the film is, but a pervading attack against it -first I want to know about the film and its ideas, then some idea of the type of reaction it has generated. I had no interest in seeing the film but wanted to know something about it and that info is so swamped in the current page by assaults against the film. I am not going to involve my self in this any more than the tag, because there are plenty of very bright people already working on the page. Plus its dangerous and unprofitable to be between two groups of people that are vehemently opposed to each other and you have plenty of POV and peevish vandals to deal with and I have no interest in the debate. I hope the page balances out but i will not hold my breath waiting.Hardyplants 08:57, 27 April 2007 (UTC)

This complaint is idiotic and demonstrably false. As I write this, there are 5669 words in this article, of which 1476 words in the Viewpoints expressed in the film and Claims made in the film sections present a almost-totally* uncritical recitation of this film's subject matter (e.g, the film says X, Y, Z, 'etc with no critical commentary at all). As William said, given the wholly-propagandistic nature of this film, I think this is far more generous than is deserved. (Or, to compare this film to its intellectual predecessor, please point to the quarter-of-the-article-long uncritical description of Nazi values in the Triumph of the Will article). As such, I have removed the tag. Raul654 15:28, 27 April 2007 (UTC)

* - the presentation is totally uncritical with the exception of two sentences describing the graph deception. (This graph used in the programme's first airing... 1988.)

Did you just compare this movie to Triumph of the Will?--Rotten 01:31, 29 April 2007 (UTC)

Absolutely. As a piece of propaganda, this film is a worthy successor to Triumph of Will. And as far as intellectual integrity, it's also on the same level too. Raul654 01:39, 29 April 2007 (UTC)

You ever hear of Godwin's Law? I guess the movie has "won" then? ;) --Rotten 01:49, 29 April 2007 (UTC)

Last year, I was on a panel about Wikipedia at the ACM conference on Computers, Freedom, and Privacy. Mike Godwin was in the audience :) Raul654 01:55, 29 April 2007 (UTC)

(So was Vernor Vinge, which is why I got this pic)

I'll take that as a "yes"? ;) --Rotten 01:56, 29 April 2007 (UTC)

Yes, I'm well aware of Godwin's law. But in this case, it doesn't apply. It's very much a fair comparison - these are two propaganda films with absolutely no interest in intellectual honesty. And when you use the tactics used by this film, you can "prove" anything. As one reviewer aptly put it: "Cherry-pick your results, choose work which is already discredited, and anything and everything becomes true. The twin towers were brought down by controlled explosions; MMR injections cause autism; homeopathy works; black people are less intelligent than white people; species came about through intelligent design... You can sustain a belief in these propositions only by ignoring the overwhelming body of contradictory data. To form a balanced, scientific view, you have to consider all the evidence, on both sides of the question." Raul654 01:59, 29 April 2007 (UTC)

Ah yes, the "yeah but in this case the Nazi comparison is valid" defense. --Rotten 02:07, 29 April 2007 (UTC)

It's rather difficult to talk about propaganda and not mention them. Raul654 02:14, 29 April 2007 (UTC)

Not really. As a matter of fact I could talk about the propaganda spouted out on both sides of the Global Warming debate at length without ever mentioning the Nazis, mostly because they have nothing to do with the Global Warming debate. At least, not to the more informed debaters. And mentioning them in connection to this debate actually makes your side seem shrill. But obviously I'm wrong and the Nazis have everything to do with the GW debate, huh? --Rotten 02:20, 29 April 2007 (UTC)

The Nazis have nothing to do with the larger debate about Global warming. But this page isn't about the larger debate. This page is about "The Great Global Warming Swindle", a propaganda film that, as I have shown above, harkens back to the Nazis both in technique and rigor. And if that seems shrill, it's only because nobody likes being associated with Nazis - even sleazy filmmakers who use their propaganda tactics. Raul654 02:48, 29 April 2007 (UTC)

I think the problem Hardyplants and others complaining about the article have is that, even under rules that exclude direct reference to the facts that refute nearly everything in the film, a comparison of the claims and the criticism makes it obvious to any reader that TGGWS is itself a swindle. Sad to say, reality is biased against them. JQ 23:37, 28 April 2007 (UTC)

That's because reality has a well known liberal bias :) Raul654 01:41, 29 April 2007 (UTC)

No it's because the media has corporate interests in mind before telling the truth!

http://news.independent.co.uk/media/article2521677.ece http://forum.themarkettraders.com/read-m/10/5056/5056

Yeah...classical liberal. ;o) Seriously though, in terms of the kinds of political policies that the film and its makers encourage, Gore's An Inconvenient Truth is the more apt successor of Triumph of the Will. I consider all three films to be propaganda. Both the global warming films deviate from the scientific consensus to a significant extent. Geoffrey Allan Plauche 03:27, 11 May 2007 (UTC)

Wow, yet another bit of Wiki groupthink. If it mattered it would upset me. It doesn't, so it doesn't. I am astonished that anybody thinks these sophomoric beatups are worthy of review, never mind correction. Greglocock 13:03, 24 May 2007 (UTC)

What criterion is this "Roesch has nothing to do with the movie."

Schulz Stephan, what criterion are you applying? None of the notes have anything specific to do with the movie. They are ALL elaborations on the science. In this case the model science. --Africangenesis 21:22, 27 April 2007 (UTC)

You're on to something here. The models aren't perfect! What an astonishing discovery! Raymond Arritt 21:28, 27 April 2007 (UTC)

Schulz Stephan, what gives a with "Please don't refight global warming here"? I don't question global warming. This is about the whether the models are credible for attribution and projection, providing scientific bacground relevant to Houghton's response, just like the other notes which you apparently are in favor of. Have you read Houghton's full response? It is little more than "hey, the models are coupled now and can reproduce past climate", nothing that addresses their problems.--Africangenesis 21:31, 27 April 2007 (UTC)

The others are at least elaborations of Houghton's position, while your's is obviously not (it attaches to his reproduction of one of the movies claims). And I'm not certain that any of them should be in. This is an article about the movie, and it should concentrate on the movie. That includes the reaction to it, but not an original analysis of the science. And I prefer to be called either Stephan, or Dr. Schulz. Addressing people by their family name only is uncivil. --Stephan Schulz 21:35, 27 April 2007 (UTC)

Nonsense. ~ UBeR 22:35, 27 April 2007 (UTC)

I am sorry about the Schulz, Stephan. Only note "b" is an elaboration of Houghton's position since it is by Houghton, the rest seem to be somebodies idea of what would back Houghton up. I did not know the notes had to be only uncritical support for his position. I would be interested if anyone can come up with backup for Houghton on point d, that goes beyond his rather off point response, and actually addresses whether the models are accurate enough for attribution and projection.--Africangenesis 21:42, 27 April 2007 (UTC)

I agree with Stephen - this is an article about the movie, and not about the entire global warming controversy. And there seems to be an intolerant, sarcastic, unscientific attitude of those here that disagree with the position of the film. There needs to be a clear delineation here. This article is about a movie, and to include points and counter-points and editorials and scribbling by people with an invested interest in the position opposite to the film, then it's way too big. Quoting an article that is an original source, fine. Quoting an article that quoted another article is hardly authoritative. And if you have to be reduced to quoting the science editor of a daily newspaper (a positon that only requires a high school diploma), then you're really desperate. --Corwin8 02:36, 30 April 2007 (UTC)

I've cleaned up some parts and removed redundant material (how many different ways can we discuss that mislabbeled graph?). I've also removed some stuff that seemed to argue about the issue in general instead of being DIRECTLY RELATED to the film. I've also removed stuff that did not have a direct reference. I'm assuming that someone's going to want to discuss these??? --Corwin8 03:11, 30 April 2007 (UTC)

Um, yeah, I expect so... "Delete first, discuss later" is not usually a helpful approach, and can be seen as gratuitously provocative. A self-revert pending further discussion could be seen as a gesture of good faith. Raymond Arritt 03:13, 30 April 2007 (UTC)

Corwin, I removed (or rather cut) sections that discussed the science, and had no direct relevance to the movie. You deleted descriptions to explicit reactions to the movie. The first don't belong here, the second should be a major part of the article. --Stephan Schulz 21:08, 30 April 2007 (UTC)

Took out notes section

I cut this (and the associate references):

Notes

α. ^{^} For more on troposphere temperature measurements, see the 2006 U.S. Climate Change Science Program report "Temperature Trends in the Lower Atmosphere:Steps for Understanding and Reconciling Differences". The Executive Summary says, "Specifically, surface data showed substantial global-average warming, while early versions of satellite and radiosonde data showed little or no warming above the surface. This significant discrepancy no longer exists because errors in the satellite and radiosonde data have been identified and corrected." [12]

b. ^{^} For more on the radiative effects of clouds, see any edition of John Houghton's book, The Physics of Atmospheres. In the chapter on clouds, the textbook says, "In section 6.3... it was mentioned that clouds interfere with the transfer of radiation in the atmosphere in two ways. Firstly, they reflect a certain proportion of solar radiation back to space, so reducing the total energy available to the system. Secondly, they act as blankets to thermal radiation from the earth's surface in a similar way to greenhouse gases. By absorbing thermal radiation emitted by the earth's surface below, and by themselves emitting thermal radiation, they act to reduce the heat loss to space from the surface."

c. ^{^} For more on human contributions to atmospheric carbon dioxide concentrations, see Global Biogeochemical Cycles. At the end of chapter 11 on the global carbon cycle, Holmen summarizes the global carbon cycle in Fig. 11-24 as described in the text. Vulcanism is stated to contribute 0.1 PgC/year to the atmosphere, while fossil fuel burning and deforestation contribute 6-7 PgC/year. Though plants and animals respire 60 PgC/year, and litterfall releases an additional 60 PgC/year, the biosphere also assimilates 120 PgC/year. The ocean releases 80 PgC/year to the atmosphere, but it also uptakes 80 PgC/year. A similar figure can be found online at NASA's Earth Observatory website, where carbon fluxes are expressed in Gt. Note that 1 Pg is approximately equal to 1 Gt. The most up-to-date infromation from NASA indicates that the air-sea carbon flux exchange is currently more on the order of 90 GtC/year (90 GtC/year released by the ocean to the atmosphere, and 92 GtC/year absorbed by the ocean from the atmosphere).

This is neither from the movie, nor, apparently, used by anybody notable in the discussion of the movie. Adding them in here amounts to original research. Reporting on the existing discussion is fine, but adding to it directly is not. --Stephan Schulz 21:50, 27 April 2007 (UTC)

This appears fair. Adding note (d) for completeness.

d. ^{^} For more on the problems with current models see Roesch A. (2006), Evaluation of surface albedo and snow cover in AR4 coupled climate models, J. Geophys. Res., 111,D15111, doi:10.1029/2005JD006473. Roesch found that all the AR4 models had a positive surface albedo bias compared to two sets of sattelite observations of 0.016 and 0.019 respectively. For perspective on the size of this correlated bias see the figure [13]. The 198 watts of solar radiation reaching the surface implies that the bias in the models is on the order of 3.2W/m^2 and 3.8W/m^2 respectively.

--Africangenesis 21:54, 27 April 2007 (UTC)

Agreed with Africangenesis and Dr. Schulz. ~ UBeR 22:33, 27 April 2007 (UTC)

Neutrality and cleanup tags

What in this article is POV? It has an accurate summary of the movie's content, and plenty of info about criticism of it and related controversies (Wusch, etc.). Do we still think that the POV and cleanup tags are necessary? If so, which part(s) need to be cleaned up or neutrualized? Oren0 21:07, 1 May 2007 (UTC)

Profanity necessary?

Do we feel that all the cussing is necessary in the section about Durkin's emails? Does including it really help anything? Maybe replace with ****, [expletive deleted], or rewrite so that he doesn't need to be quoted? It just seems like the language doesn't help the article at all. Oren0 15:15, 4 May 2007 (UTC)

No, Wikipedia is not censored Raul654 15:19, 4 May 2007 (UTC)

It does seem that the language doesn't help Durkin at all; but it does give useful info so why remove it? William M. Connolley 16:01, 4 May 2007 (UTC)

Caption edit reverted

William M. Connolley reverted my edit in the GHG forcing graph (which I'm not sure belongs on this page anyway, as this is a page about a movie, but that's another conversation). The image presents as fact that the amount of "temperature forcing" due to various factors is exactly known. I'm no climatologist, but I do know a good amount about mathematical modeling, so excuse me if I'm misinterpreting the graph. Based on what I read here, I understand that the graph is essentially attempting to best fit temperature variation to various forcing factors based on their concentrations and temperature differences. It seems that these "forcing" numbers are simply predictions based on a single model, not scientific fact. Based on this, the article should clearly state that this graph is based on a single model (after all, we know these models aren't the most reliable things in the world) and not actual scientific fact. If my understanding is correct, then I think my change of the caption to "Sulphate aerosol has continued to grow, but GHG forcing has grown faster, based on data from one global climate reconstruction model" (my additions in italics) is a reasonable one, and is by no means "too specific" as WMC suggests. Oren0 17:40, 4 May 2007 (UTC)

I disagree. First, I don't know what a "global climate reconstruction model" is and nor does google. Why you didn't just leave it at GCM I don't know. Second, I don't know how you got your text above, when the Image says "The time history and radiative forcing qualities for each of these factors was specified in advance and was not adjusted to specifically match the temperature record." So your caption is inaccurate, as well as pointlessly specific. There is no way adequate detail can be given in the caption: if more info is required, the image text has to supply it William M. Connolley 20:41, 4 May 2007 (UTC)

I also question the inclusion of this graph - is it cited explicitly by any of the programme's critics? If not, it strays a little close to original research or at best it's being used to support the critics claims, which is something Wikipedia articles aren't mean to do - the sources are meant to speak for themselves. QmunkE 21:28, 4 May 2007 (UTC)

Its useful information. No-one has disputed the neutrality of the graph. Its clearly relevant to the point at hand. Giving the reader easy reference to some valuable data is what wiki is for. And anyway, the article needs more pictures, not less. Why not admit your main complaint is that it makes Durkin look bad - not because its biased, but because any real and up-to-date data does the same, which is why he was so careful to avoid using any of it? William M. Connolley 22:21, 4 May 2007 (UTC)

It is a synthesis to advance your point of view. If you want to evangelise about global warming, please do so on your blog. Without referencing it here. Iceage77 22:27, 4 May 2007 (UTC)

No, you're being rather desperate here trying to remove useful relevant info you don't like. Its not a synthesis to place a graph of sulphate forcing next to a quote talking about sulphate forcing. You can use a different one, if you can find a better one. Why exactly do you think placing this info is "evangalising"? I'm baffled. I'll note also that if you have any concerns about the quality, veracity or NPOV nature of the graph you should of course raise them on the graph talk page William M. Connolley 22:48, 4 May 2007 (UTC)

Yea, verily, he evangeliseth not; nor does he SYN by the Wikipedia.

Putting up the graph and arguing that Durkin was wrong would be one thing. It's another to give Durkin's point, and to provide the reader with objective information about the issue at hand that equips the reader decide for himself or herself whether Durkin's statement is credible. Raymond Arritt 03:24, 5 May 2007 (UTC)

I think the including picture is exactly WP:SYN. "Editors often make the mistake of thinking that if A is published by a reliable source, and B is published by a reliable source, then A and B can be joined together in an article to advance position C." You're adding the graph to imply that Durkin's assertion is incorrect (otherwise, why is it there). No reliable source has made this connection as far as I know, therefore this violates the letter and spirit of SYN. Why don't you think it does? Oren0 21:50, 5 May 2007 (UTC)

Removing Real Climate blog

Would anybody object if I removed the Real Climate paragraph from the "Reactions from scientists" section? I've stood up to having it included up to this date, because I thought it had information that was not available in another source elsewhere. However, now that the programme has been quite so comprehensively dismantled by other scientists, I think it could be reasonably taken out. There's a lot of information now in the "Reactions from scientists" section, and I'm not sure how much the RealClimate paragraph adds any more (in addition to being controversial for being a blog, and co-written by WMC). --Merlinme 11:33, 9 May 2007 (UTC)

I shall comment rather than "voting", for obvious reasons. Firstly I object on principal, since RC is a RS there is no reason to take it out. Secondly I don't see the altered-graphs bit elsewhere William M. Connolley 11:55, 9 May 2007 (UTC)

As regards which sources are admissible, I note that there was pretty strong insistence on keeping a link to John Lawrence Daly in the Global warming controversy article, even though the late Mr Daly had no relevant qualifications other than the fact that, through his blog, he was a prominent participant in the debate. So, I think it's appropriate to keep RC.JQ 12:12, 9 May 2007 (UTC)

Agree with Merlinme. "If the information in question is really worth reporting, someone else is likely to have done so." The question here isn't whether it's a reliable source, we've been over that. Being reliable is only a secondary requirement for being included. We don't include everything because it comes from a reliable source, that should be known by now. ~ UBeR 17:14, 9 May 2007 (UTC)

I agree that RealClimate should be removed. It's a blog and it creates the perception of a conflict of interest that some RealClimate contributors are also some of the most active WP editors on the subject of global warming. It's better to wait until a non-blog source reports something, and post that. We also know that RealClimate is a source with an agenda and it's better, when possible, to use neutral sources. Oren0 18:22, 9 May 2007 (UTC)

I'm removing this for now based on the majority opinion here. If you want it readded, please discuss it here rather than simply reverting my edit. Oren0 18:24, 9 May 2007 (UTC)

I think it was a pretty slim majority- I would have preferred consensus. Just to clarify, I think the relevant part of the sources policy is that it's acceptable to use a good blog, but we should be cautious, and use a more obviously reliable source if it's available and says the same thing, which I think is the case now (but wasn't before). Also, regardless of whether true or not, there are perceived conflicts of interest with WMC editing the article, and I think it's better to avoid that perception if we can get the information from elsewhere. --Merlinme 08:54, 10 May 2007 (UTC)

In response to a question from WMC (and reading my post above again, it wasn't clear), I should clarify that the only theoretical conflict of interest I was talking about is in using WMC as a source in an article which he edits heavily. I wasn't suggesting there was a conflict of interest in him editing the article in general. --Merlinme 11:38, 10 May 2007 (UTC)

CO2 vs Temp graph

There is a graph halfway down the page which compares EPICA and VOSTOK ice core samples relating carbon dioxide and mean global temperature for the last 750,000 years. This image keeps getting swapped back and forth between two different graphs. I originally added the graph to the article, and have twice reinstated it in its original PNG form. It is a single continuous graph that I find easier to interpret. The description of this image states that there is an svg (vector) image that should be used in its place. The reason I do not feel this appropriate is because the vector image is not the same graph as the rastor image. The two graphs draws data from the same sources, but do not examine data along the same timeline. Since this is quickly degrading into an edit war, I thought I would pose the question of which image to keep. I'll go with whatever you guys decide, I just thought we should settle this now. If we do go with the svg version, though, it would be appropriate to update the caption to match the timeline in the new image as well. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 68.15.226.72 (talk) 20:22, 9 May 2007 (UTC).

As the creator of both graphs I have to say the SVG version is preferable, for many reasons. The first is that the SVG versions involves some corrections in timescale issues present in the original, and removes an unnecessary normalization procedure allowing for original units. Then there's the SVG improvement over a raster image. I consider the PNG graph deprecated, not just for format reasons, but for technical reasons regarding the actual data presented. Please stop reverting to it. -- Leland McInnes 20:36, 9 May 2007 (UTC)

Also note that the graphs present the same timescale of comparison -- the PNG is over a longer time range, but lacks CO₂ for that extra range. -- Leland McInnes 20:37, 9 May 2007 (UTC)

That's cool, man. As I mentioned, I don't intend to push this matter any further. I just wanted to understand the change. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 68.15.226.72 (talk) 20:38, 9 May 2007 (UTC).

By the way, good work on the graphs and thanks for updating the caption. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 68.15.226.72 (talk) 20:45, 9 May 2007 (UTC).

Too bad we can't argue the science here.

Houghton showed complete ignorance of climate commitment or the current state of the climate models. Is it really ethical or good faith to be including those points of his that we know are wrong, just because they are in a quote from an authoritative source? We should make it clear that these are just quotes, not put being cited for the truth of the matter--Africangenesis 15:34, 15 May 2007 (UTC)

Hmm, I find the paraphrase of his statement entirely in agreement with the current state of the science - to the degree this can be expected from a 2 sentence summary of a 1 page statement. Anyways, the statement is properly attributed. --Stephan Schulz 15:43, 15 May 2007 (UTC)

I just watched this movie, and I found it to be very intresting. It gives a good new view on all politics... However, there has to be a reason amongst scientists why this isn't a more widely spread train of thought. Streetsabre 15:46, 15 May 2007 (UTC)

I suggest you read the article, especially the reactions of scientists. Basically, the movie is a combination of plain lies, serious misrepresentations, and minor but irrelevant truths. --Stephan Schulz 16:17, 15 May 2007 (UTC)

Stephan, I'd be happy to include a discussion of the current state of the science and how houghton has it wrong, however, I thought we weren't going to allow that in the article.--Africangenesis 15:48, 15 May 2007 (UTC)

Well, we are on the talk page. Your comment is strictly superfluous in the first place, as you rightly point out (the discussion of the science is irrelevant for this article, we report on the movie and its reception), but if you make the claim, you should be ready to either substantiate it or to retract it. --Stephan Schulz 16:17, 15 May 2007 (UTC)

Sure, this is the statement where he shows his ignorance of climate commitment:

• "However, the much more complete observations of the sun from space instruments over the past 40 years demonstrate that such influences cannot have contributed significantly to the temperature increase over this period."

He should have known that solar activity would not have to have increased in the last 40 years to make a significant contribution.

• "Climate models are too complex and uncertain to provide useful projections of climate change - NOT TRUE."

Here he shows his ignorance of the diagnostic studies. The fact that modelers produce similarities to current and past climates, and compare results with each other doesn't mean that they provide useful projections of climate change. They've been shown to have errors several times larger than the energy imbalance that is the responsible for the recent warming, as shown by evidence I've cited at Global warming--Africangenesis 16:46, 15 May 2007 (UTC)

Surely this is like normal weather prediction models? i.e. they're wrong, and we know they're wrong, especially over the long term, but we also know that they provide useful predictions, especially in the short term. We also know that they're a lot better than they used to be. To throw your hands up and say they have errors is to miss the point. If a weather forecaster tells me that it's going to rain today, I take my umbrella. If multiple, peer reviewed climate models tell me that greenhouse gases are increasing global temperature, it seems sensible to me to have a debate about what to do about it. Inaccuracy in itself does not mean something should be ignored scientifically. There are many examples of science where it works "well enough", even when we're aware of errors. Newtonian physics works "well enough" for most purposes, even though it's not a complete explanation. The question is whether there is something better out there, and you've not persuaded me that the errors in climate models are so bad as to completely ignore them. Are you saying that the science behind them gives predictions which are more wrong than if we just guessed? --Merlinme 17:32, 15 May 2007 (UTC)

I agree with your edit summary, the models are useful tools, but for qualitative purposes. They are not up to this quantitative task of attribution and projection. I think the models have some usefulness over a short time period, say ten years, because if they do have the energy imbalance right, even if it is attributed to the wrong forcings or feedback mechanisms, they will be pretty close on the temperatures and the heat storage into the oceans over that time scale. But even over that short decadal time scale they are quite limited, being unable to predict El Nino's for instance. I don't trust some of their CO2 feedbacks because their coupling to the oceans is wrong. I think if they display climate mode or tipping point behavior, that should be taken seriously and investigated for confirmation in the paleo climate data, but the quantitive threshold distance from the current climate state should not be taken at face value, but will require a lot of validation. Which models are you going to trust? There is too much correlated error to assume that averaging them together is an improvement.--Africangenesis 17:56, 15 May 2007 (UTC)

Given that you start with an authoritative statement that John Houghton doesn't understand climate science, and then ask us to rely heavily on your expert opinion ("I think" this and that, "don't trust"), it would be useful if you could give an indication of your qualifications to comment on this topic, Africangenesis. I note that quite a few editors of this article are identifiable as experts on various aspects of the global warming problem, and would be able to give an assessment of your standing in the field. JQ 00:01, 19 May 2007 (UTC)

Evidence is more authoritative than qualifications, the former allow you to make up your own mind. Hopefully, you don't want someone else to do your thinking for you. When requested, I backed up that "authoritative statement". If my statements become authoritative, let it be based on a history of being able to back them up, and demonstration of familiarity with the literature. Those who disclose credentials, have a history that they may be defensive about reversing, and may fear reversing previous opinions, especially if they are part of an organization or community where they would face ostracism for doing so. Let them start participating anonymously, where they can be free to acknowledge or concede points with uninhibited intellectual honesty. Let us also agree not to engage in incivility, that we would not use if our identities were known.--Africangenesis 01:26, 19 May 2007 (UTC)

Dr. Quiggin tends to like to commit the argumentum ad verecundiam fallacy. :) ~ UBeR 04:17, 19 May 2007 (UTC)

The idea that evidence based reasoning can be usefully treated in terms of a priori syllogistic logic is one of the classic reasoning errors encountered in this debate, one to which libertarians are particularly prone, in my experience. Africangenesis has offered his/her judgement (s/he thinks this, distrusts that) as evidence. If s/he were an independent expert that would carry weight, though not logical certainty (see appeal to authority which gets this more or less right). As s/he isn't, it doesn't. JQ 12:57, 19 May 2007 (UTC)

You are definitely trying to change the subject, I was asked a question and I responded, and my opinions also mentioned reasons. You are free to give your own subjective value to those opinions and you can ignore the reasons at your risk. I will do similarly regarding your opinions based on your "experience".--Africangenesis 07:00, 20 May 2007 (UTC)

Obsfuscation by the BAS

This is embarrassing obsfuscation by the British Antartic Survey

• "A comparison of the distorted and undistorted contemporary data reveal that the plot of solar activity bears no resemblance to the temperature curve, especially in the last 20 years. The recent IPCC report indicates that changes in solar irradiance since 1750 account for only ~5% of the increase in radiative forcing of the Earth’s climate compared with the effects of greenhouse gases (such as carbon dioxide, methane and nitrous oxide)."

Once again the public's ignorance of climate commitment is being exploited by a citing a resemblence of curves. Earlier increases in solar forcing are enough assure a significant solar contribution to the recent warming, although GHGs may still be dominant. The comparison of levels of forcing is further obsfuscation, since in a non-linear system the forcings cannot be simply compared or summed, as they are coupled to the climate in quite different ways. Furthermore, even if one was to compare them for their values at the surface, the CO2 should have been reduced by the lapse rate feedback to a fraction of the value being used.--Africangenesis 15:46, 15 May 2007 (UTC)

You may or may not be right, but thats beside the point: the prog asserted that solar causes warming based on a simple correlation between the plots, with no talk of lags. That argument is wrong, as BAS points out (disclaimer, I work for them, but I didn't write any of it) William M. Connolley 16:08, 15 May 2007 (UTC)

Davis Guggenheim's film ?

My Google check gives 45 Google hits for "Davis Guggenheim's film" vs 70900 hits for "Al Gore's film". I think commonsense ought to prevail here. But I suppose if commonsense prevailed, TGGWS would never have been made. JQ 07:50, 16 May 2007 (UTC)

Infinitus est numerus stultorum. "From director Davis Guggenheim comes the Sundance Film Festival hit, AN INCONVENIENT TRUTH, which offers a passionate and inspirational look at one man . . ." "Paramount Classics and Participant Productions present a film directed by Davis Guggenheim, AN INCONVENIENT TRUTH. Featuring Al Gore, the film is produced by Laurie David, Lawrence Bender and Scott Z. Burns." Magister dixit. ~ UBeR 16:00, 16 May 2007 (UTC)

Since Gore is the author of the content - it becomes a question of using common sense here. If the movie is per the same reasoning/rationale as WP:COMMONNAME referred to as Gore's then (imho) its the "correct" way to refer to it. --Kim D. Petersen 20:10, 16 May 2007 (UTC)

I'm afraid WP:COMMONNAME doesn't apply here. Quite simply, the movie is directed by Guggenheim and features Gore. What's difficult here? ~ UBeR 20:51, 16 May 2007 (UTC)

I know that commonname doesn't apply here - read what i wrote again please. Its directed by Guggenheim... yes - content written by Gore - featuring Gore. Are you saying that the content was written by someone else? As a sidequestion: How many M. Crichton movies are there? --Kim D. Petersen 21:03, 16 May 2007 (UTC)

I don't know... six? Riddle me this, how many Sam Neill films are there? ~ UBeR 21:07, 16 May 2007 (UTC)

By your requirements, and discounting shorts, exactly 1 [14], though that was a TV movie, so perhaps that doesn't count either. Can we just say zero? -- Leland McInnes 22:38, 16 May 2007 (UTC)

Hey, that's pretty good! ~ UBeR 22:46, 16 May 2007 (UTC)

Followup debate

The article currently states "The channel subsequently announced that it would be hosting a debate about the global warming issue to be broadcast in April." Did this happen?JQ 20:52, 18 May 2007 (UTC)

As far as I'm aware, no. I can't find a reference to it on the Channel 4 TGGWS site, or the Wag TV TGGWS site, or with a google search. It may be that it's later than originally planned. It may also be that Channel 4 got cold feet when they saw the reaction the programme got. It's a bit hard to say at this stage. If that's still no sign of the debate in June, we could probably think about taking that statement out. --Merlinme 09:14, 21 May 2007 (UTC)

I guess the failure to hold an announced debate might be relevant, since, as you say, it suggests that C4 is backing away from the programme. But we should wait and see. Would it be OR to contact C4 directly and ask about this? JQ 09:28, 21 May 2007 (UTC)

Template filling

I can't remember if if was here that the issue came up, but there's a great automatic template filling tool here. Just paste in the URL/ISBN and it generates the cite.JQ 21:09, 18 May 2007 (UTC)

External links

Much as I am flattered that you have put a link to my complaint to Ofcom I think that it is hardly appropriate that you have put a link to this in the "external links" section and no other critiques of the programme written by people far better qualified than me, of which there are many on the web. For example RealClimate, John Houghton, Bob Ward, and many others. Furthermore my amateur letter is the only link in the external links section not supportive of the contentions of the programme! This surely violates Wikipedia's neutrality policy, besides the fact that putting a single link to an amateur critique over many written by experts in the subject seems to violate good quality standards. Yours, Josie Wexler (apologies if I have made mistakes in Wikipedia protocol I have never posted on here before but this concerned me personally.) JWex 02:29, 20 May 2007 (UTC)

Sorry that last post should have gone under a new heading, here. JWex 02:32, 20 May 2007 (UTC)

Have you read the article, ma'am? ~ UBeR 05:14, 20 May 2007 (UTC)

I think MS Wexler's main point is that her letter is included as an external link, whereas other criticisms (and supporting statements) are linked in the notes section. The external links section, looked at in isolation, certainly appears unbalanced. JQ 05:57, 20 May 2007 (UTC)

Yes, sorry for being unclear. My point was specific to the external links section. I know there are other links in the notes and the main article. Ta JWex 11:18, 20 May 2007 (UTC)

The more formal looking notes, are for references that are discussed in the text of the article. I don't think your note is discussed in the text, someone may have just supplied the link because they thought it might be of interest to readers of this article. Hopefully balance is achieved on the article as a whole, and not in each and every section.--Africangenesis 11:24, 20 May 2007 (UTC)

Still, it might be good to footnote the letter, maybe where we mention complaints to Ofcom. I'll look at doing thisJQ 03:15, 21 May 2007 (UTC)

I've done this now, and done the same with a link to the Ball story as well as deleting to links unrelated to TGGWSJQ 03:30, 21 May 2007 (UTC)

A couple of links with no reference to the program keep getting reinserted. In what way are these links relevant, as opposed to any of thousands of others on the global warming controversy? If we include them, should't we have balancing items to reflect the relative prevalence of scientific views, say 20 or 30 links supporting climate science? I'm happy enough to add them if needed, but it seems inappropriate for this article.JQ 06:27, 22 May 2007 (UTC)

"A couple of links with no reference to the program keep getting reinserted." For example, the IPCC page? ~ UBeR 17:52, 22 May 2007 (UTC)

Yeah, it's not like the IPCC was one of the program's main topics or anything. Oh, wait... Raymond Arritt 18:39, 22 May 2007 (UTC)

Yeah, it's not like shunning the idea of global warming catastrophism was the program's main topics or anything. Oh, wait... ~ UBeR 18:56, 22 May 2007 (UTC)

What does this have to do with the show: Dangers of crying "wolf" on climate change or this: Global Warming False Alarms by Russell Lewis ? --Kim D. Petersen 18:52, 22 May 2007 (UTC)

The joint science academies statement (Note 2) doesn't mention the film.--Africangenesis 19:16, 22 May 2007 (UTC)

If it's not relevant then zap it. Before doing so, consider whether the film mentioned the joint academies' statement, or conversely, whether it argued that there was no support for AGW from authoritative scientific bodies (I suspect the former is very unlikely, while the latter may well be possible). Raymond Arritt 19:22, 22 May 2007 (UTC)

I've fixed that. ~ UBeR 19:33, 22 May 2007 (UTC)

removed vanity edit.

I removed the vanity part of this edit.[15]--Africangenesis 18:38, 22 May 2007 (UTC)

I've removed this bit, per our conflict of interest policy, which states, "Conflicts may include editing for the sake of promoting oneself" or cause. If after discussion it's found to be worthy of inclusion, a non-interested party (i.e. not Dr. Quiggin) can add it. ~ UBeR 01:28, 23 May 2007 (UTC)

I don't think a two-sentence quote in a Wikipedia article is going to make a big difference to my career, UBeR. The relevant guideline states "You may cite your own publications just as you'd cite anyone else's, but make sure your material is relevant and that you're regarded as a reliable source for the purposes of Wikipedia. Be careful about excessive citation of your own work, to avoid the appearance of self-promotion". Again in the context of hundreds of contributions to Wikipedia, I don't think a couple of sentences comes remotely near "excessive self-citation".JQ 06:03, 23 May 2007 (UTC)

I don't think what your career is or is not bears any relevance here. Well, perhaps it does, because it raises the question of whether your opinion here is noteworthy. At any rate, your piece doesn't seem to shed any particular or helpful insight on the issue or opinions expressed by other Australians. ~ UBeR 06:48, 23 May 2007 (UTC)

"I don't think what your career is or is not bears any relevance here." I take it you're withdrawing any suggestion of conflict of interest, then. JQ 07:08, 23 May 2007 (UTC)

You can promote yourself without promoting your career. ~ UBeR 07:11, 23 May 2007 (UTC)

Umm, please spell this out. Exactly how would two sentences in Wikipedia promote me, and to whom. Or are you saying, directly contrary to policy, that You should not cite your own publications . JQ 07:45, 23 May 2007 (UTC)

"conspiracy theories", "bizzare ideas", and "culture wars" classifications are unlikely to enhance an economist's career, since they are not within that field of expertise, unless perhaps the bizzare ideas were economic ideas? No, if there was a conflict of interest, it was just the interest in seeing your name in print again. There wasn't an internet link provided for these comments, so perhaps there was more substance to the comments than mere name calling and pejorative classification. I don't see how the comments are notable.--Africangenesis 13:59, 23 May 2007 (UTC)

So now it's just a content dispute. Fine, but please stop with the abusive vanity stuff in your edit summaries. JQ 19:53, 23 May 2007 (UTC)

Time and time again in the GW debate, refs that I and others have inserted have been removed because "op-eds can say whatever they want and are not reliable sources." Sorry, but those rules apply to you as well. Oren0 16:18, 23 May 2007 (UTC)

Huh? There are a dozen or so op-eds cited here. Of course, they are not reliable sources for scientific information, they indicate a range of opinions published in leading newspapers.JQ 19:53, 23 May 2007 (UTC)

If you want to find another example of a critical opinion piece published in Australia, that you think would be better, go ahead and insert it. Otherwise, you appear to want to make the claim that all responses here have been favorable. JQ 19:55, 23 May 2007 (UTC)

I don't see a need to cover favorable and critical responses from every country that don't add something substantively new, such as an important scientist or public figure weighing in. The "favorable" australian citation does not appear to be particularly notable either, unless that is the official editorial position of an important paper, as opposed to a signed column by a non-expert. I notice that your response appears to mock the paper. --Africangenesis 10:10, 24 May 2007 (UTC)

So, you're now claiming that Australian reactions don't count? This is an interesting interpretation of "vanity", and of course yet another policy violation. JQ 10:58, 24 May 2007 (UTC)

Just that Austrailian reactions are not notable just because they are "Austrialian". I've just read the COI page, and I see that labeling your edits "vanity" is discouraged, so I will now refrain from that and I apologize. But I also found that COI includes competitors to one's organizations. I note that you are a journalist for The Austrailian Finanacial Review, and that you saw fit to include a mocking pot shot in your edit against a competing newspaper. That gives the appearance of conflict of interest. Please remove you COI edit.--Africangenesis 11:07, 24 May 2007 (UTC)

This is even less defensible than your last claim. You clearly have little knowledge of the state of the media, or of public debate, in Australia. But if you want to go for moderation over it, feel free. In the meantime, having admitted that your multiple previous reverts were based on a misreading of the rules, I suggest you take no further action until your claim can be assessed.JQ 11:24, 24 May 2007 (UTC)

You overstate it completely. My prior reasons all stand, it just ain't nice to call it "vanity", I should have called it "conflict of interest" instead. By the way, why not just remove the reference to your competitor in the quote? And what is the bizzare idea that the Austrailian embraced? I've read teh article, and don't see it. Does you article explain it?--Africangenesis 11:31, 24 May 2007 (UTC)

The "bizzare" ideas referred to in your quote, via'a'vis the austrialian article, do not appear related to their claims for Swindle. I searched "Counterpoint" for swindle and there were no hits. Your quote seems to be more about other positions taken by the Austrailian and by Duffy, than about swindle. Perhaps we should reduce your component of that section to: " John Quiggin criticised the program for putting forward "conspiracy theories"", to keep it relevant to this article. And that would eliminate all conflicts of interest in relation to this article, except your involvement in the judgement as to whether your article on this was notable.--Africangenesis 12:19, 24 May 2007 (UTC)

Responses to scientists

I don't really like this section, mainly because I don't see how it can fail to lead to duplication. For example, Durkin's response to Friis-Christensen should go here, but it also seems appropriate immediately following the Friis-Christensen's comments further up. I guess I can see why the section was added, but I would prefer it if Durkin's response to individual criticisms were dealt with immediately after the criticism, and I don't really see why the Mick Hume quote is in at all.

--Merlinme 17:30, 24 May 2007 (UTC)

Actually a better place for the Mick Hume quote would be under the "Reaction to possible DVD release" section. --Merlinme 17:33, 24 May 2007 (UTC)

"Controversial" in the first sentence

Pointers to Archived Threads on this topic:

• Propaganda or polemic?
• Polemical documentary
• All those in favour of "controversial documentary film", with the "polemic" quote somewhere in the lead, say Aye. Those opposed say Nay

--GoRight (talk) 18:02, 29 November 2007 (UTC)

In the debate over at Talk:An Inconvenient Truth about inclusion of "controversial" in the opening sentence, an outside editor brought in by an RfC made the following comment, which seems to be what's going to happen on that page:

"The controversy, if discussed in the article, should be discussed in the introduction by way of "brief description" (perhaps a sentence or two; the introduction to this article actually needs to be expanded a bit on the whole). The descriptor "controversial", used in the first sentence of the intro, however, is problematic. It provides no context in favor of making the absolute (if referenced) determination that the film is, in fact, controversial. Whether the film is controversial is a matter of opinion; whether it has been described as controversial by specific sources is not. Merely stating that the film is controversial without context implies that the descriptor is, well, uncontroversial, even if it has a reference attached. I would make the same argument against including the descriptor "controversial" (without context) in the intro to the Mel Gibson article. So, in sum, the intro should be expanded, and in the expansion a "brief description" of controversy regarding AIT should be written up. · jersyko talk 20:06, 29 May 2007 (UTC)"

I think the exact same logic applies here as well. It seems that the word "controversial" should be removed from the opening sentence and the controversy should be briefly discussed in the lead section (it already is, but perhaps someone would like to expand on it). Oren0 20:44, 29 May 2007 (UTC)

Oren0, the difference from there to here - is that TGGWS is controversial in a very real sense:

• False graphs - admitted by the director
• Created as controversy (a polemic) - source: channel 4.

and so on. --Kim D. Petersen 20:51, 29 May 2007 (UTC)

Ie. In this instance, there is a context for the descriptor. --Kim D. Petersen 20:53, 29 May 2007 (UTC)

The logic seems reasonable but based on past experience I am wary. "Polemical" already has been downgraded to "controversial." If the next step is to remove "controversial" from the first sentence, will we then see an effort to remove "controversial" from the intro? Followed by deleting the word "controversial" altogether from the article? Raymond Arritt 17:02, 1 June 2007 (UTC)

I think the philosophy behind the argument of jersyko (though I could be wrong) is that why use the adjective when you could describe it in a lot more detail and let the readers conclude with their own thought? This is, I believe, also the philosophy behind NPOV. If you describe any controversy surrounding the film without using the word controversial, does it become any less controversial? That is what I think you have to ask yourself. ~ UBeR 17:41, 1 June 2007 (UTC)

Ahh, and we see it yet again, the typical logic... Al Gore OK, no one else is. Your joking right? or do you realy think it can't be found somewhere information about ICT lieing or streatching the truth... perhaps in ICT's article?[16]. how about the straight up lie that "there is no debate"? is it too much to ask for consinisty?--Zeeboid 21:03, 29 May 2007 (UTC)

Our opinion on which is more controversial than which is irrelevant. "Controversial" is an opinion. I couldn't make the intro to The Godfather say "The Godfather is a great movie that..." even if I found 100 sources that said it was great, because it's an opinion. I could say that the movie has been called "great" by x, y, and z...just as I can say that AIT or TGGWS has been called "controversial" by whomever. But to call them controversial as a matter of fact is incorrect. Oren0 21:10, 29 May 2007 (UTC)

Oren0 the context is that its controversial (i'd settle for polemic as well). Since Channel 4 itself labelled it as such. There is a long discussion about this further up on the Talk page - calling the film controversial was determined by consensus - instead of using the word: polemic. (which as said is attributable to the releaseinformation for the film). --Kim D. Petersen 21:21, 29 May 2007 (UTC)

Zeeboid, can you please settle down and disengage yourself from your personal opinion for a bit? There is very real controversy here - and the director has admitted to showing false graphs (the Temp graph). It is getting sued by one of the contributors to it (Wunsh). Another contributor says that his research is being misrepresented and to some extent falsified (Friis-Christensen). Channel 4 that showed it says that its a polemic. This has nothing to do with Gore or AIT.--Kim D. Petersen 21:17, 29 May 2007 (UTC)

To say that it has "caused controversies such as ..." or "has been called controversial by ..." or even "was called a polemic by Channel 4" would all be acceptable because they are attributable facts. However, calling it controversial is still an opinion. Oren0 21:47, 29 May 2007 (UTC)

Oren0: If its a polemic - then its designed to be controversial. I see no strange thing in this. I also don't see any specific negative connotations to the word. --Kim D. Petersen 22:39, 29 May 2007 (UTC)

General comment: This been addressed before. (Archive link -consensus-, let's move on). R. Baley 22:48, 29 May 2007 (UTC)

Even though that discussion came from the original wording of "propaganda film" and seems to be more about whether or not to call it a documentary than whether or not to call it controversial, I guess I'll have to live with that consensus for now. Oren0 22:56, 29 May 2007 (UTC)

I googled controversial "the great global warming swindle" (i.e. searching for the full title). This got 51,600 hits. This includes the Spiked interview with Martin Durkin in which, in an interview about TGGWS, when discussing how he's been censured in the past for his techniques (i.e. misleading and selectively editing interviewees, although he doesn't say that), he complains about how "seriously controversial" work is censored by Ofcom. Although he never actually says he thinks of his work as controversial, surely the context is a a tacit admission that he recognises his work is controversial.

In any case, it's not like we're making the controversy up; and something which creates controversy is controversial, by definition. --Merlinme 09:16, 30 May 2007 (UTC)

Agree with jersyko on all counts. Should be removed, and will do so if no other will. ~ UBeR 22:56, 30 May 2007 (UTC)

How about finding a consensus first? The last time this was in dispute, it created an edit-war. And the current wording is a compromise with removing it and what i believe you would consider worse. So there is a good chance for another war. I think thats a poor idea. --Kim D. Petersen 23:21, 30 May 2007 (UTC)

To expand - the wording "controversial documentary" is quite alot weaker than "propaganda" or "polemic" etc. Which were the other alternatives. iirc. --Kim D. Petersen 23:24, 30 May 2007 (UTC)

At the risk of invoking Godwin's Law, we probably shouldn't label it controversial for the same reason we don't call Hitler "evil" - the controversy is discussed properly in the lead: we can let the facts speak for themselves. --h2g2bob (talk) 23:30, 30 May 2007 (UTC)

Precisely. ~ UBeR 23:48, 30 May 2007 (UTC)

UBeR if you believe the former well established consensus has changed - then submit it for a vote. The last time it was 2:1 for controversial + polemic somewhere in the lead.[17] I could understand if we were talking about something that happened a long time ago - but that vote was only 2 months ago, as you know since you took part. There is no particular reason to just change it without checking for such. I'm all in favour of a vote - and i may even suspect that the interest in this film has fallen so much that the outcome might be different. --Kim D. Petersen 00:09, 31 May 2007 (UTC)

I don't see what's wrong with calling a controversial film "controversial." It's not a pejorative term, like the example "evil" that someone mentioned earlier. TGGWS has generated a huge amount of controversy in the mainstream press and elsewhere, as demonstrated in the body of the article, and to neglect mentioning that fact in the intro is odd. (I haven't followed press coverage of AIT but if it has generated the same degree of press controversy as TGGWS then it should be called "controversial" as well.) Raymond Arritt 00:57, 31 May 2007 (UTC)

While I'm not suggesting a new vote, it's worth noting the context of the previous discussion. At that time, the alternatives were "propaganda film" or "controversial documentary," with the latter chosen because calling it propaganda is horrendously POV. Note that WMC and Kim were among the ones who opposed at that time, though it seems that they are the ones who would support the language "controversial documentary" now. Oren0 01:04, 31 May 2007 (UTC)

I can sorta see the point, but calling a controversial film "controversial" doesn't seem like a controversial matter (hope that's clear). See e.g. the intros to other controversial films such as Fahrenheit 9/11 or even Borat. Raymond Arritt 01:09, 31 May 2007 (UTC)

Oren0, yep i voted Nay, because i supported a stronger wording. But i adhere to the consensus that was established, and i believe it wrong to just ignore it. --Kim D. Petersen 01:16, 31 May 2007 (UTC)

I agree, Dr. Arritt. There is nothing fundamentally pejorative about the word controversial. It simply means there is some sort of controversy surrounding the subject. I've tried explaining this to Mr. Petersen and others, but to no avail. Maybe you can do better. Needless to say, despite the true meaning of the word "controversy," I still must agree with jersyko. ~ UBeR 04:15, 31 May 2007 (UTC)

The strange thing UBeR is that i don't hold strong views on controversial for AIT - i wouldn't revert it, even though i've done so once - to point out that the argumentation was faulty. But in the case of TGGWS, which is the topic we are talking about here, the background is quite different. The monetary backers of the show, Channel 4 are saying that they ordered it to be made as a 'polemic'[18] - its designed to be controversial. Thats the main point, and the one you seem to ignore. --Kim D. Petersen 15:33, 31 May 2007 (UTC)

Do you have indication for me to believe Channel 4 is responsible for TGGWS, monetarily? Or are you maybe confusing Wag TV? ~ UBeR 16:51, 1 June 2007 (UTC)

(moving left) RA, Fahrenheit 9/11 and Borat are excellent examples of what UBeR, jersyko, and myself have said. Note that the controversies are noted in the intros but neither is introduced in the first sentence as a "controversial film," just as we've done with AIT. Nobody is arguing that the controversies shouldn't be in the lead section, the question is whether "controversial," a matter of opinion, should be the first thing a reader reads about the film. Again, I couldn't open the page to "The Godfather" with "The Godfather is a great film that..." because that's a matter of opinion, no matter how agreeably true or well sourced. Whether is a negative or positive is beside the point. Oren0 04:34, 31 May 2007 (UTC)

We seem to be discussing the possibility that we replace "controversial documentary film" with "documentary film that has generated a lot of controversy". I personally struggle to see the difference. --Merlinme 12:15, 31 May 2007 (UTC)

We should adopt the same approach as with AIT - discuss the controversy in the opening paragraph but with a neutral first sentence. As things stand double standards are being applied. Iceage77 14:30, 31 May 2007 (UTC)

To further stir the pot, we are not referring to a film at all, but a television programme. So we should be discussing whether or not to call it a "controversial documentary programme" or a "controversial television documentary". I believe we would doing our readership a disservice by not calling it controversial. --Skyemoor 18:32, 1 June 2007 (UTC)

It's a documentary film that aired on TV and is being sold on DVD, much like many of the History Channel's documentaries. Needless to say, you've provided no reason for us to believe not calling the film controversial would be a disservice in light of explaining the controversy. ~ UBeR 18:56, 1 June 2007 (UTC)

If we're going to nullify the earlier consensus, I'd also like to reopen the issue of whether the show is truly a "documentary." Raymond Arritt 19:18, 1 June 2007 (UTC)

If we want to use Mr. Petersen's argument, we would argue that Channel 4 calls it a documentary. But I find that to be a lame argument. ~ UBeR 19:44, 1 June 2007 (UTC)

It's a documentary: [19][20][21][22]. I could go on all day. What a non-argument. Oren0 00:38, 2 June 2007 (UTC)

Three of your four sources describe it as "controversial' -- two of them, in the first sentence. Raymond Arritt 01:03, 2 June 2007 (UTC)

I've never argued that it's not controversial. I think it's inappropriate to say "controversial" (it's still a matter of opinion, no matter how many sources you have) as essentially the first word of the article. Leave the controversy to later sentences in the lead section. Oren0 01:19, 2 June 2007 (UTC)

Personally I thought this, from the documentary film page, summed it up quite well (talking about Michael Moore's films): "Indeed, the commercial success of the documentaries mentioned above may owe something to this narrative shift in the documentary form, leading some critics to question whether such films can truly be called documentaries; critics sometimes refer to these works as "mondo films" or "docu-ganda."' However, in addition to being a term not in wide usage, I can't believe anyone would prefer 'docu-ganda' to the current formulation. --Merlinme 10:57, 4 June 2007 (UTC)

Since this issue seems to be heating up again, I would remind those claiming a consensus that Consensus Can Change. --GoRight 09:03, 16 November 2007 (UTC)

By all means- but we argued about this endlessly a few months ago. A signficant proportion of the people who edit the article (perhaps a majority) would actually like something stronger than "controversial".--Merlinme 09:21, 16 November 2007 (UTC)

Would you prefer, for example, "extensively criticised documentary film", which is easy to backup with about twenty references? --Merlinme 12:57, 16 November 2007 (UTC)

Again a comment as such would be overtly favoring one specific viewpoint. The same argument could be made for AIT. It would be best to remain neutral and not put an upfront interpretive spin on what the film is and is not. The machine512 14:21, 16 November 2007 (UTC)

The original alternative is to, state what channel 4 did: TGGWS is a polemical documentary. Which is entirely attributable, and is what Channel 4 payed Durkin to produce.

The wording controversial was preferred by most, instead of this. See the very long discussion on this in the archive, which finally ended up with this [23]---- Kim D. Petersen (talk) 17:08, 16 November 2007 (UTC)

The opening paragraph should be a good summary of the article. It's a fair summary that TGGWS is controversial. It could also be described (with references) as "hotly disputed by many scientists", "a polemic by someone who's been criticised in the past for misleading editing", "a programme which has been shown to be false in several of its major points". In the circumstances, I think "controversial documentary" is fairly mild. ---- Merlinme (talk) 17:43, 16 November 2007 (UTC)

Yes, you can find references which say such things. I can likewise find equally forceful statements regarding AIT. When I attempt to argue for AIT as your are here, the response is basically (paraphrased) "it is not good enough to find a few references, you must demonstrate widespread trends." On this page those same editors are silent on this point. I find it rather disingenuous that some editors (not you specifically) would argue one way in the case of TGGWS while the opposite in the case of AIT. If the argument holds for one it should hold for the other, IMHO.

I have compiled a list of relevant Google queries to try and objectively assess whether there is a difference between these two films in terms of being viewed as "controversial". I have not tried to bias the result in any way. Google queries are what they are and we all know their limitations. They are, however, objective and not subjective in nature. If someone has more credible and objective numbers than these to assess the level of demonstrated controversy associated with each film, then I will be more than happy to see them. In the mean time I would argue that the numbers provided below are at least objectively defined and should be given consideration in this argument. --GoRight (talk) 23:26, 23 November 2007 (UTC)

I see that the "controversial" has been changed to "polemical" which I understand to mean "an aggressive attack on or refutation of the opinions or principles of another". See the Miriam Webster On-line Definition. Personally I think that this is a perfectly appropriate description of the film, so I think that we should modify the first sentence to be more in line with this definition. ---- GoRight (talk) 20:08, 16 November 2007 (UTC)

I think that the current version is now a good faith effort to make the first sentence more consistent with your description of it being polemic while not over stating its degree of success in that regard. ---- GoRight (talk) 20:24, 16 November 2007 (UTC)

Some Google Queries to Provide Objective Data on Purported Levels of Controversy

Consistent with WP:GOOGLE, search engines can be used to provide valuable data relative to a debate. It is important to understand what the resulting statistics imply, however. I have compiled a few relevant and interesting queries related to the issue of these movies being "controversial". This is being done in direct response to the oft asserted, but little supported, claim that the reaction to AIT was that it was overwhelmingly not controversial whereas the reaction to TGGWS was just the opposite. This is an attempt to inject some objective data, rather than subjective statements, into the discussion. Any other objective data on this topic would be appreciated.

I am placing this into it's own section because the text for the following table is large:

Google Query	Controversial Hits	Non-controversial Hits
"The Great Global Warming Swindle" +"controversial" +"controversy"	10,200
"The Great Global Warming Swindle" +"controversial" -"controversy"	21,300
"The Great Global Warming Swindle" -"controversial" +"controversy"	14,900
"The Great Global Warming Swindle" -"controversial" -"controversy"		399,000
	46,400	399,000
	10.4%	89.6%
Google Query	Controversial Hits	Non-controversial Hits
"An Inconvenient Truth" +"controversial" +"controversy"	68,100
"An Inconvenient Truth" +"controversial" -"controversy"	162,000
"An Inconvenient Truth" -"controversial" +"controversy"	132,000
"An Inconvenient Truth" -"controversial" -"controversy"		1,930,000
	362,100	1,930,000
	15.8%	84.2%
Google News Query (All Dates)	Controversial Hits	Non-controversial Hits
"The Great Global Warming Swindle" +"controversial" +"controversy"
"The Great Global Warming Swindle" +"controversial" -"controversy"
"The Great Global Warming Swindle" -"controversial" +"controversy"
"The Great Global Warming Swindle" -"controversial" -"controversy"		4
	0	4
	0.0%	100.0%
Google News Query (All Dates)	Controversial Hits	Non-controversial Hits
"An Inconvenient Truth" +"controversial" +"controversy"	53
"An Inconvenient Truth" +"controversial" -"controversy"	623
"An Inconvenient Truth" -"controversial" +"controversy"	269
"An Inconvenient Truth" -"controversial" -"controversy"		13,900
	945	13,900
	6.4%	93.6%
Google Query	Controversial Hits	Non-controversial Hits
"The Great Global Warming Swindle" +"controversial film"	826
"The Great Global Warming Swindle" -"controversial film"		433,000
	826	433,000
	0.2%	99.8%
Google Query	Controversial Hits	Non-controversial Hits
"An Inconvenient Truth" +"controversial film"	668
"An Inconvenient Truth" -"controversial film"		1,840,000
	668	1,840,000
	0.0%	100.0%

Google Discussion

• Looking over the first page of "+"controversial" +"controversy" for either movie, 7 out of 10 call TGGWS "a controversial X" ("movie", "documentry",...) in the 2 line preview. 0 out of 10 do so for AIT, and indeed two or three contain phrases like "there's no such widespread controversy surrounding this film". I'm not impressed. --Stephan Schulz (talk) 23:40, 23 November 2007 (UTC)

• This effect is simply because the media have picked up a specific phrasing and replicated it. If a particular page is discussing AIT within the context of being controversial, or not, it is by definition controversial. If someone is trying to argue that AIT is NOT controversial then they are defending against someone who does. So even negative hits such as the one you point out are still valid hits in terms of the film being controversial.--GoRight (talk) 18:21, 25 November 2007 (UTC)

Nonsense. First, there is no reason why "the media" should pick up such phrasing for one movie, but not for the other (especially not if, as you seem to claim, they are so similar). Secondly, the Google summary shows you the context of the keywords. Its a good (if not perfect) indication of how they are used. And thirdly, that is an absurd claim. Consider "AIT is an uncontroversial movie about a controversial topic". There is no question that there is some controversy about AIT - there is some controversy about whether it is appropriate to give red roses to your bosses wife. The question is whether there is enough controversy to call the movie "controversial" and if (it's not), if this is a sufficiently significant property to require it to be mentioned in the introduction. --Stephan Schulz (talk) 21:38, 25 November 2007 (UTC)

It is evident that you don't pay attention to the media on political topics on a regular basis. They frequently reuse sound bite material from each other, and this is exactly the type of sound bite phrasing that gets used. Bush and his Gravitas. Kerry and his flip flops. TGGWS and being controversial. It is all the same effect.

I assume you are familiar with the newswire services like the Associated Press. One writer at the Associated Press writes a single story and that gets sent out to literally hundreds or thousands of media outlets and will get picked up by some percentage of them as "filler stories". This is why you can frequently find the same story, almost word for word in most cases, in a number of print media sources on Google news. The media in question don't have to be in some huge conspiracy, they merely need to echo one another on point for which they are ideologically aligned and the newswire services only serve to increase this effect.

I doubt that I have convinced you of anything here, so let us just agree to disagree on this point. --GoRight (talk) 02:38, 26 November 2007 (UTC)

Actually, let's not yet. If your hypothesis would be correct, then I would expect that the phrase in question appears a lot in pages by news outlets (which do reprint wire stories). Alas, "The great global warming swindle is a controversial" in both the standard news query and the news archive finds zero hits. Oops. --Stephan Schulz (talk) 07:59, 26 November 2007 (UTC)

Hmmm, an interesting result is it not? What does this result say about those 900+ hits you claim below in terms of being WP:RS?

Given that result I looked into the results returned by your query a little more carefully. Here is a page that claims to have taken a quote from BBC News. Note the first sentence: "The Great Global Warming Swindle is a controversial documentary film by British television producer Martin Durkin, which argues against the scientific opinion that human activity is the main cause of global warming." Here are a few interesting queries based on that:

• "The Great Global Warming Swindle is a controversial documentary film by British television producer Martin Durkin, which argues against the scientific opinion that human activity is the main cause of global warming." - 2 hits.
• "The Great Global Warming Swindle is a controversial documentary film by British television producer Martin Durkin" - 98 hits.
• "The Great Global Warming Swindle is a controversial documentary film by British television" - 269 hits.
• "The Great Global Warming Swindle is a controversial documentary film" - 757 hits.
• "The Great Global Warming Swindle is a controversial documentary" - 791 hits.
• "The Great Global Warming Swindle is a controversial" - 939 hits.

• "The Great Global Warming Swindle is a controversial" BBC News - 173 hits and note the similarity of the results.

Please note the trend identified above. This is from one BCC article which is no longer available on their site. The first three are clearly hits based on that one article. The rest? Who knows but I wouldn't rule out a lot of the other ones having been influenced in a similar manner. It all depends on how much you want to plagiarize the original source. A fair number of these go on to mention or reword the original text but have pretty much the same material.

I also note a lot of broken video links in these hits. I surmise that at one time there was a video on youtube or google video which also used this sentence. That likely influenced things as well.

Even so, I can also give you another potential source of bias to account for your result, and this is a good one. The wikipedia factor!  :) Let's not underestimate the influence this page has. It comes up at the top or near the top of a Google search for "The Great Global Warming Swindle". Please note the first line that is displayed in the preview.

More and more people are relying on wikipedia to be an unbiased source for material. They read it here, and post it there. Since this wikipedia article has this exact phrase in the opening line while the AIT page does not, this could easily be a factor in explaining your result as well.

I note that while I have provided not only explanations but evidence to support those explanations for how your query has a systematic bias. Perhaps you can show how mine are systematically biased, as in they inherently skew the relative results? As I said, if such a bias exists I will be happy to work to remove it. --GoRight (talk) 07:14, 27 November 2007 (UTC)

Not that I buy your argument that all the first three are "clearly hits based on that one article", but you do realize that even if you assign all of the first 4 queries to that hypothesized multiplication effect, and without any scrutiny of the 7 AIT results, its still 20 to 1, or XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX:Y. And if you look below, you see that the great "Wikipedia effect" has almost entirely failed to reproduce the Wikipedia lead sentence for AIT (and the three hits are clearly attributed). --Stephan Schulz (talk) 17:13, 27 November 2007 (UTC)

GoRight, I don't really understand what your point is. You wanted to bring in Google searches to justify (or otherwise) the use of "controversial" for TGGWS. Now the results don't seem to show what you want, you're going to ignore them? --Merlinme (talk) 08:25, 26 November 2007 (UTC)

The results are what they are. I claim my results are less biased that Stephan's. Both he and you are welcome to disagree. I have provided a rational explanation for what the bias in his queries are. If you don't believe my explanation then believe Stephan's results over mine.

I do not believe that there is any argument or any amount of evidence that I can provide which will change Stephan's mind on this matter. I hope others are more objective on this point. Given this, I simply see no reason to go on arguing this point with him as it will simply be an "I'm right. No, I'm right!" ad infinitum exchange. When faced with this type of situation, intellectually honest people typically just agree to disagree and move on. Does that answer you question? --GoRight (talk) 07:14, 27 November 2007 (UTC)

Yes. You are almost certainly correct that the Google results (and possibly even the BBC article) are heavily influenced by Wikipedia. I personally have found it disconcerting on a couple of occasions when attempting to research something on the internet which I think is wrong in Wikipedia, how many hits you get which basically repeat the Wikipedia article verbatim. Anyway, unfortunately all this shows is that Google is going to be of no help here. In which case, I'm afraid you're going to have to try to find another way to change the consensus (which has survived numerous other attempts to change it). --Merlinme (talk) 08:26, 27 November 2007 (UTC)

Agreed William M. Connolley (talk) 09:27, 27 November 2007 (UTC)

Whether the BBC article in question was influenced by wikipedia or not is certainly open to debate, and I see no evidence thus far that the particular BBC article in question was so influenced. What I do see evidence of is that the article in question undoubtedly got picked up and amplified. Either way the claim of controversy traces back to one source (either the BBC article itself or the wikipedia editors here if the BBC article had been influenced by them). This accounts for a significant percentage of the hits in Stephan's query. Wikipedia may possibly account for a significant percentage of the remaining hits in Stephan's query which were not influenced directly by the BBC article, thus diluting the validity of Stephan's claim even further.

Let us focus for a second on the implications of the above reasoning and assume, as you suggest may be the case, that the BBC article had in fact been influenced by this very page. In that case my queries above demonstrate that the article clearly amplified the effects of the commentary originating here significantly. Now you (collectively) wish to argue that the film is controversial based on the widespread characterization of the film as being controversial (and using Stephan's results as evidence). This becomes a circular argument on your part where you make a claim of controversy, play that claim through an amplifier, and then reassert the claim when challenged based on how how often the claim has been made. This amounts to you claiming the film is controversial simply because you called it controversial way back when.

So, even if your don't believe in the absolute figures generated by these Google searches, the the effects that they have uncovered in terms of amplification (whether originally sourced to the BBC News or here at wikipedia) still serves to at least undermine the current claim that the film is obviously controversial because lots of people have called it controversial, does it not? --GoRight (talk) 16:27, 27 November 2007 (UTC)

a) You raised Google, not us b) I'd have thought a pretty good definition of "controversial" is that lots of people have called it controversial, regardless of where that opinion originated. I mean, what else does the word mean? c) With the google evidence at best inconclusive (and I'm sure many would argue it's against your position), you appear to be trying to appeal to a large "silent majority" who don't think TGGWS is controversial. I'm afraid I don't think this exists. I've certainly seen no evidence of it. d) I can't see any of this having an effect on the current consensus. --Merlinme (talk) 17:24, 27 November 2007 (UTC)

"b) I'd have thought a pretty good definition of "controversial" is that lots of people have called it controversial, regardless of where that opinion originated. I mean, what else does the word mean?" OK, lets go with this and apply it equally to both films. So, what is the objective bar that I must meet in order to be able to make a comparable claim over at AIT? In other words, how many is "lots" and do either of the films meet that standard? --GoRight (talk) 17:32, 27 November 2007 (UTC)

Who said there was any objective bar? And why must the two films be treated identically? Do all Westerns have to be treated identically because they have a similar subject matter? Do Hitler and Stalin have to be treated identically because they're both 20th Century dictators? I don't edit An Inconvenient Truth. I've never seen the film, for a start. Therefore I have little or nothing to add on that Wikipedia article. I have seen TGGWS, and I do have quite strong opinions on it. I find the argument "a completely different film is treated in this way, therefore this film must be treated in the same way" completely pointless. They're different films. Please try and change the consensus on AIT on that page, and the consensus on TGGWS on this page. --Merlinme (talk) 17:46, 27 November 2007 (UTC)

LOL.  :) In case you hadn't noticed, they have been actively censoring this discussion on the AIT page and a recent compromise points that discussion back over here!

The bar should be objective to make it fair as required by NPOV, rather than simply the majority pushing their view onto the minority. As the minority view on this point I have no way to affect the text other than to engage you in these discussions. I feel strongly that the current state is skewed in favor of the "mainstream consensus view" so I seek to change it in a manner in line with the rules and conventions of this site.

The bar should likewise be the same for both films for the same reason, to make the assessment of WP:WEIGHT based on an objective measure rather than subjective opinions and to maintain NPOV is a "fair" manner. Again, as the minority view on this point I cannot win the argument based on subjective opinions and a show of hands so trying to make the measure objective simply gives me another tool to try and win the argument. And with scientific backgrounds this crowd focusing on objective measures rather than subjective opinions should carry some weight.

Having reviewed the past debates on this point and having made my own argument I will drop this discussion on the TGGWS page for now as I see that I am not swaying any real opinions so the consensus remains, albeit with one more voice on the minority side.  :)

Would you object to our taking a straw poll to simply confirm the relative numbers on each side (yes, I know, again)? --GoRight (talk) 20:25, 27 November 2007 (UTC)

For the last time, I don't know and I don't particularly care what they're saying on the AIT talk page. If you have a problem with what they've said there, take it up there.

It's virtually impossible to be objective about something like this. What we can say is that there is consensus that "controversial" is a reasonable compromise, based on the alternatives. I for one find the use of "controversial" reasonable and defensible, but I would never argue it was objectively correct, in the same way that 1 + 1 = 2.

If I had to estimate, I would guess there are three or four people who want to lose controversial, two or three people who would like something stronger like "polemical", and three or four people who think controversial is reasonable. However whatever the figures are is to miss the point about consensus; "controversial" is the only thing which we can achieve a stable article with (because it's a compromise that people can live with). In Wikipedia consensus is to some extent determined by what version of an article survives; i.e. it's implicit consensus because it reaches a state which no-one changes. When I previously conducted the straw poll, it was as much as anything to get consensus. We agreed that a majority of people could at least live with a particular wording, and then the diehards said that they would go along with the near consensus. In this case, compromise led to consensus. If all you want to do is find out how many people you need to recruit to 'win' the argument, please do not conduct a straw poll, as that is most definitely against the spirit of Wikipedia. Please see: Wikipedia:Polling is not a substitute for discussion and Wikipedia:What_Wikipedia_is_not#Wikipedia_is_not_a_democracy.

Incidentally, I apologise if I've been getting slightly bad-tempered recently, it's just that these discussions are quite time consuming, we've had them before, and we don't seem to be going anywhere new. --Merlinme (talk) 08:32, 28 November 2007 (UTC)

• BTW, "An inconvenient truth is a controversial" yields 7 hits, while "The great global warming swindle is a controversial" yields 927 (and AIT generates 4.5 times more hits than TGGWS). Still not impressed... --Stephan Schulz (talk) 00:09, 24 November 2007 (UTC)

• This particular query is horribly biased because it completely eliminates any pages that legitimately discuss AIT within the context of being controversial but don't happen to use that exact phrasing, while at the same time playing into the tendency of the media to pick up news feeds and replicate specific phrasings such as the one applied to TGGWS in this case. --GoRight (talk) 18:21, 25 November 2007 (UTC)

Huh? On the contrary. This query gives us some indication of how many web pages actually call either movie controversial. Your queries inherently return all pages with phrases like "AIT is a movie about the global warming controversy" - which make no claim about the movie itself being controversial. And again, why is does the "tendency of the media to pick up news feeds and replicate specific phrasings" work for only one of the two movies? Looking e.g. at the Wikipedia lede for AIT, "An Inconvenient Truth is an American Academy Award-winning", there are only tree hits, all attributed to Wikipedia. How did the media fail to pick up this phrase? Looking at TGGWS again, "The Great Global Warming Swindle is a controversial documentary film" from our Lede finds over 700 hits...--Stephan Schulz (talk) 21:38, 25 November 2007 (UTC)

No, these queries tell us how many websites parrot this exact phrasing, which given the media effect is a huge and systematic bias. My queries have no such systematic bias one way or the other as far as I can see, but if you can find such a bias we can certainly work to eliminate it from the queries as long as it is based on a recognizable pattern or phrasing. You do agree that AIT could be discussed in the context of being controversial without actually using this exact phrasing, correct?

Do you detect a large number of false hits as evidenced by the actual text of the articles/pages as opposed to the 2 line summaries which are often misleading? If so let me know and I will either work to eliminate it or acknowledge it if I can't, but your example thus far is merely an example of a systematic bias that I have already avoided. --GoRight (talk) 02:38, 26 November 2007 (UTC)

• I do not claim that my queries have no false hits. If there are some specific phrases that appear to be biasing these results in a systematic way we can easily eliminate that bias by explicitly excluding those phrases. I would think that this is a preferable approach to obtaining an objective dataset than picking a specific phrase that is almost guaranteed to introduce just such a systematic bias. Agreed? --GoRight (talk) 18:21, 25 November 2007 (UTC)

I doubt that that is a useful and viable approach. --Stephan Schulz (talk) 21:38, 25 November 2007 (UTC)

Fair enough. As I said above if you can produce something that remains objective but is more credible then we can work with that. --GoRight (talk) 02:38, 26 November 2007 (UTC)

The only real conclusion I can draw from this is that the Google approach is highly controversial, to say the least. Gmb92 (talk) 06:44, 27 November 2007 (UTC)

Please help Wikipedia to Expand

I notice that a programme related to TGGWS has disappeared from this article, and another one is currently being reviewed for its notability...or its worthiness on Wiki. I'm referring to Doomsday Called Off, a documentary produced and broadcast by the Canadian Broadcasting Corporation. There is currently a full version available on google video (that hasn't been borked yet) [24] this file was uploaded April 21st, 2007, and so far has received over 73,000 views (which isn't too shabby for a suppossed CBC relic consigned to the dustbin for its un-notabilty). The documentary explored the hockey stick graph, reviewed climate change scientist (Michael Mann)...and was generally in a similar vein to TGGWS, so, a great place to link it then...especially on Wikipedia, would be the "related programmes" section on this article, aye, nay? I mean, its getting a tad elitist, does a docu have to be produced by Michael Moore, or have Guardian columnists wetting themselves because a docu like TGGWS offends their lightbulb changing fetishes, or does a docu have to win an Oscar to get a mention on Wikipedia? Its pretty sad it was deleted, or voted off, so much POV bullying and pushing, don't agree with it, going to delete it and cite Wiki rules like notabilty to hide the fact that it is simply being axed because you disagree with it. --Dean1970 13:43, 4 June 2007 (UTC)

Godwin in one (see your edit summary). Raymond Arritt 13:46, 4 June 2007 (UTC)

Godwins law, deary me, that works both ways....kinda should apply to those that have the word "denial' etched into their vocab to demean and intimidate those that disagree with them...they lose straight away too do they?! Thanks for avoiding the point issue I raise though. --Dean1970 14:08, 4 June 2007 (UTC)

If you want to be taken seriously then you have to act seriously, instead of ranting about nazi book burning and "lightbulb changing fetishes." Tell us what critical and scientific reaction there was to the show, give links to sources saying who was in it and who sponsored it, and so on. I Googled the title and the first 100 hits were almost all blog comments, with little useful information aside from the fact that it was produced by a Danish company. Raymond Arritt 14:21, 4 June 2007 (UTC)

I've removed this link once, because neither the programme nor the people in the programme are mentioned in TGGWS. What's the relevance? We can't have a link to every programme that has ever mentioned the global warming debate, there would be hundreds if not thousands. --Merlinme 14:40, 4 June 2007 (UTC)

It is amazing that this programme has hundreds if not thousands of hits, even if they are mainly blogs, more amazing is the tens of thousands of views on GoogleVid in just over a month. Willie Soon and Sallie Balliunas participated, as did John Christy and a few others, I don't know off hand (because I watched it a few weeks ago after seeing it on this article) because suffice to say the article has been exterminated. I don't know who sponsored it, but i'm pretty sure one or two Guardian writers will claim Exxon had a hand in it! As for reaction in the scientific community, a realclimate blogger (funnily enough)had a hand in its demise...nuff said, didn't like it, casts Mr Mann in a speculative light, axe it! --Dean1970 14:50, 4 June 2007 (UTC)

Every article on Wikipedia needs a little time and effort, CBC was the first web-hit, thats a good enough start for the article to progress...better than just axing it all together! --Dean1970 14:53, 4 June 2007 (UTC)

And it is perfectly reasonable to list the docu here as a related programme! --Dean1970 14:55, 4 June 2007 (UTC)

Merlinme, Hi! On a different note, I notice the article for AIT has a recent addition, a "synopsis section"! I tried to include one on this article a while back and it was swatted in seconds. Perhaps a revised section can be entered when the DVD is released?....apparently the DVD will iron out the minor errors made during the first televised airing and contain added features that bolster the film-makers claims regarding global warming swindles. --Dean1970 15:11, 4 June 2007 (UTC)

Well, that's not really how Wikipedia works, is it? I'm scarcely the only person whose opinion matters on this article. If you think a synopsis would add something, then please go ahead. Bearing in mind the controversial nature of TGGWS article though, it might be sensible to explain to people exactly what you're going to do and get a reasonable level of consensus that the addition would be sensible, or it may be reverted very quickly. Why don't you start a new "Synopsis" heading on this discussion page and see whether people think it would be worthwhile? (On a separate issue, I'm a little dubious whether the DVD version eliminating the 'minor errors' will make a silk purse out of a sow's ear, but that's fairly irrelevant with regard to the question of whether to have a synopsis.) --Merlinme 16:44, 4 June 2007 (UTC)

Thanks Merlinme, I think the idea of adding a "synopsis section" can be entertained after the DVD release to flesh out the film-makers claims. Raymond, sorry for making a comparison with book booking earlier, just curious as to why Doomsday Called Off was deleted, it was a little over the top though, apologies. It was an interesting documentary. And indeed, Godwins Law is a two-way street, environmental minister quoted today comparing the fight against global warming to fighting fascism in the early twentieth century, a kind of 'walk the plank or join the crew' way of saying "if you're not with us, you're a fascist". [25] But that's just my opinion. --Dean1970 02:28, 5 June 2007 (UTC)

I see now -- apparently Doomsday Called Off had an article and it was deleted. I didn't know that. But I can see where it would have been an uphill fight in terms of notability. Re your final comment, be aware that many of us on the scientific side of the problem cringe at much of the "we're all gonna die" stuff. Raymond Arritt 03:05, 5 June 2007 (UTC)

But James Hansen says it's OK to scream lies, so just follow the scientific method of lying. (SEWilco 03:51, 5 June 2007 (UTC))

Quote format

Does anyone else think the blocked-out quotes under the "Viewpoints expressed..." section look strange? I don't see the need for this format, given that they're brief quotes and not extensive blocks. Raymond Arritt 16:57, 4 June 2007 (UTC)

Screening date

I'm agnostic either way about whether the article should state the Australian screening date, but it is likely to become a source of contraversy when it is screened (OR I know...) - but there have already been attacks on the ABC for its decision (The Age 2-3rd June). It is also very unusual for an institution not normally in the business of screening polemical documentaries with this level of scientific innacuracy. Mostlyharmless 05:41, 5 June 2007 (UTC)

Oh I don't know. They ring-fenced it with enough politically-correct blather that there was no danger that anybody would assume that the ABC agreed with it. The sheep made all the usual sheep-like noises. Greglocock 04:08, 13 July 2007 (UTC)

Not to mention the noises made by Durkin's barking mad supporters, going from Durkin's Margaret Thatcher theory to the claim that it's all Prince Philip's fault. ROTFLMAO! JQ 08:15, 13 July 2007 (UTC)

Quotes!!

William, I made a good faith edit, chill out brother. I just added to his quote...whats the frikkin big deal!! Do you see me trimming down criticism?? Is Durkins quotes on some kind of wikiration i don't know about. People need to cool down with the paranoia it getting absurd, it good to be pushy for excellence to help article I agree but show good faith even if we disagree on stuff!!!!!!! --Dean1970 12:01, 7 June 2007 (UTC)

I don't care for your familiarity. You made an edit; I disagreed with it. Please show some good faith yourself. There is no need for excess Durkin quoting William M. Connolley 12:44, 7 June 2007 (UTC)

You disagree with the edit so you delete it?! um no, you disagree with the quote so you delete it. You didn't seem to have a problem with excess quoting on a page we're both familiar with in the not-too-distant-past. But all of a sudden it's an issue when it is the other way around. Again, I repeat my question: Are public quotes made my Mr Durkin restricted by some wikiration I'm unaware of? --Dean1970 13:19, 7 June 2007 (UTC)

Your question is a very strange one, taken literally it indicates a gross lack of understanding. So I'm unsure how to take it. To give the obvious answer: there are no hard limits. It is a question of balance. Simply because its a Durkin quote doesn't mean it belongs: how much to quote is a matter of judgement. But all that is obvious William M. Connolley 13:36, 7 June 2007 (UTC)

William, I just edited the quote in its entirity fromThe Scotsman article. No more, no less. The quote is pretty short anyway. It is a sharp rebuke. Durkin asks his detractors in a few short words why they didn't make a song and dance about the media when they were making connections about Global Warming and the New Orleans hurricane disaster. Simple! --Dean1970 13:52, 7 June 2007 (UTC)

Its yet more stupidity from Durkin - Katrina is a nuanced matter, see the RC article http://www.realclimate.org/index.php/archives/2005/09/hurricanes-and-global-warming/. It doesn't belong in this section; its unreasonable to give Durkin a longer quote that the one he is responding too. There is quite enough Durkin in this article already William M. Connolley 14:09, 7 June 2007 (UTC)

RealClimate states: Katrina was the most feared of all meteorological events, a major hurricane making landfall in a highly-populated low-lying region. In the wake of this devastation, many have questioned whether global warming may have contributed to this disaster. Could New Orleans be the first major U.S. city ravaged by human-caused climate change?

William, an informative article, but "low-lying region"?, try "below sea-level city", not only that, but situated in the gulf of mexico in a area prone to centuries of recorded hurricanes! A recipe for disaster if I've ever heard one. Fair enough, RealClimate does state there is no way of knowing whether or not Global Warming caused Katrina and explains how future sea temps can alter hurricane intensity, ok, fair enough, but Durkin wasn't responding to RC, he was asking why scientists such as the ones who have flamed his documentary for its errors haven't spoken out against media-outlets who aren't so rational when it came to pinning Katrina on GW, and I know there are plenty! That was his point. Its not what you or I think of him when it comes to quoting him on wiki, we all have to leave our own personal opinions out of it. I edited from a reputable source an account of what he said, and it was trimmed for reasons that I have to assume are personal. --Dean1970 14:45, 7 June 2007 (UTC)

Durkin's comparison may or may not be reasonable, but the problem with the quote is that the relevance to TGGWS article is unclear to me. Katrina does not seem to be mentioned anywhere in the transcript. Durkin makes the comparison for rhetorical effect, and in an already long article, I'm not convinced this adds anything to our understanding of TGGWS. Plenty of other quotes, by other people, have been edited down; there's no Durkin specific 'rationing' going on. --Merlinme 15:01, 7 June 2007 (UTC)

That's the crux of the issue. This article is about the TV show TGGWS; it isn't "everything Durkin ever said in relation to global warming." Raymond Arritt 15:18, 7 June 2007 (UTC)

Merlinme, his quote was in response to a group of scientists regarding the DVD release, that makes it relevant to TGGWS. As for the article being too long, which areas do you propose be sacrificed to make it shorter? Raymond, I'm hardly burdening Wikipedia's servers with approx 2 lines of quote. Plus, I've already mentioned something in relation to long quotes earlier! --Dean1970 16:16, 7 June 2007 (UTC)

"Claims" vs. "Points"

Should the header "Claims made by the film" be replaced with "Points made by the film"? Claims implies that something should not be taken too seriously to begin with, but it seems to me that criticisms of the film and filmmakers are adequately documented throughout the article (even beginning in the opening sentence). IMO, the term 'points' would be more neutral.

Claims makes it clear that they are unproven; "points" would imply more solidity than they deserve William M. Connolley 20:29, 18 June 2007 (UTC)

"...argues against the scientific opinion that human activity..." Isn't this a biased conclusion? Science is on all sides of the global warming debate and does not speak with one voice. And yet this documentary argues against "scientific opinion." —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 69.132.15.106 (talk • contribs) 06:43, 5 July 2007.

See: Scientific opinion on climate change --Kim D. Petersen 09:37, 5 July 2007 (UTC)

Yes, they are claims, in a programme that is avowedly making claims against a consensus. But the phrasing of the points/claims is inconsistent. It is not always clear to me what is being claimed by the programme, what is counter claimed by its critics, and what is evidence in favour of either. Please can someone who has seen the programme clarify this. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 202.64.168.196 (talk) 10:49, 5 November 2007 (UTC)

DEFINITELY a biased contribution!

When comparing the section titles and wording to say..."An Inconvenient Truth" it's very apparant that this contribution is extremely biased.

I think it needs to be changed completely.

You mean its too favourable to TGGWS? William M. Connolley 17:55, 8 July 2007 (UTC)

Given the very negative tone of the article, I think he means the opposite. Still, you need to be more specific. S0CO^{(talk|Contribs)} 15:24, 9 July 2007 (UTC)

I agree with William - if anything, this article is far too generous. Raul654 15:30, 9 July 2007 (UTC)

I do not deny that the documentary has serious problems, but still, over half of the article is devoted to criticism of the documentary and its producers. In what way is it being too generous? S0CO^{(talk|Contribs)} 15:55, 9 July 2007 (UTC)

This has been discussed before on this very page. I stand by my above comments. A full quarter of the article is an uncriticial recitation of the contents of the movie. Raul654 15:59, 9 July 2007 (UTC)

That is what the idea of an encyclopaedia is all about. Our job as editors is to present the facts about a subject before analysis. Being as this article is primarily about the documentary itself, and not just the criticism of it (legitimate though it may be), a straightforward outline telling the contents of the documentary without bias is a valid addition to the article. The crit section later on does an excellent job of pointing out problems with the documentary, so I see no good reason to provide counterpoints throughout the summary of the film's contents. ~ S0CO^{(talk|contribs)} 16:11, 9 July 2007 (UTC)

As far as I can see, the only problems mentioned in the recitation refer to claims that Durkin himself has withdrawn. If the article did not mention Durkin's withdrawal on points where his error is proved beyond doubt, that would be even worse for him.JQ 08:18, 13 July 2007 (UTC)

"The facts about a subject" means stating it's wrong when it's wrong. It doesn't mean serving as yet another platform for deliberate disinformation. --84.46.0.37 08:43, 13 July 2007 (UTC)

Spot-on, 84.46.0.37! This article does a great job of stating where Durkin is wrong (nearly everywhere), while acknowledging the handful of valid points in the film. Thus, unlike, say Channel 4, Wikipedia is not a platform for disinformation.JQ 09:39, 13 July 2007 (UTC)

I fail to see what was so difficult to understand about what I was saying. What is wrong with telling what the contents of the documentary are before saying what is wrong with it? There's really no need to be so eager; there's plenty of critical material to go around. ~ S0CO^{(talk|contribs)} 17:43, 12 September 2007 (UTC)

There is no need for an encyclopedia to become a mouthpiece for propaganda. Neutrality will always include critical analysis. --Skyemoor 01:38, 15 September 2007 (UTC)

I don't think anyone disagrees with this. My critical/ironical comments were directed at the unsigned comment that opened the thread JQ 23:11, 12 September 2007 (UTC)

Lack of refutation

Consider this statement from the film: "Volcanic emissions and carbon dioxide from animals, bacteria, decaying vegetation and the ocean outweigh our own production several times over." It seems the refutation is that film got the amount of volcanic emissions wrong. Does that mean CO2 from animals, bacteria, decaying vegetation exceed human contribution? I am conerned with the tone of the article being very negative about the facts but lacking in formal refutation from the scientific community. Specifically, there doesn't seem to be a coherent response to points made in the film. Does one exist? --Tbeatty 05:44, 10 July 2007 (UTC)

Refutations abound. You say you want a "formal" refutation - to wit, no formal venue (like a peer reviewed journal) is going to waste time and space to print a formal refutation. Raul654 14:12, 10 July 2007 (UTC)

That's the kind of stuff I was looking for except for a little broader. It refutes points which is good. Here's the bigger points that I don't yet understand.

• Two periods of climate change remain bones of contention. The first is the medieval warm period and it's causes. As I understand it, the prevailing theory is that it correlates to solar maxima. The second is the cooling period from 1940 to 1970. This is explained now as sulphates from volcanoes. Sun and volcanoes. I understand the theories of why each in turn are being used, but it seems kind of incongruous to in turn embrace and dismiss those explanations depending on whose Ox is being Gored (pardon the pun).

No, the sulphates are not (primarily) from volcanoes but from fossil fuel burning. You find it odd that, at different times, different forcings have occurred? William M. Connolley 08:30, 11 July 2007 (UTC)

• I am concerned about key facts that are not being widely disclosed. For example, in the links you provided, it is clear that human contributions to CO2 are relatively small (single digit percentages) with the explanation being that the change has upset the balance. This is valid, but it is not the message that is being presented publicly. Rather, the message is that humans are a main contributor of CO2. This is not factual.

You are being told that humans are the main contributor to increasing GHGs. That is entirely correct William M. Connolley 08:30, 11 July 2007 (UTC)

• Another key fact that I have become aware of recently after reading is that Global Warming is the biased presentation in the press over the real issue of Climate Change. For example, it is not widely known that the Eastern seaboard of the U.S. has been steadily cooling.[26] This is not an unexpected phenomenon. The press though focuses on Global Warming therefore Warming is always the story. ask someone on the east coast if it is warmer or colder and they will most likely respond "warmer" because they have been bombarded with warming even though the data says otherwise.

If you're saying that the press often don't report things well, then my response would be "welcome to the real world", and apply that lesson to all the other things the press says. But it has no bearing on the science of GW William M. Connolley 08:30, 11 July 2007 (UTC)

My conclusion is that there are valuable points made in this documentary even though there are factual errors and misrepresentations. They certainly seem to have highlighted points that are not being highlighted by IPCC. Certainly it is political viewpoint similiar the Gore's AIC movie. --Tbeatty 05:35, 11 July 2007 (UTC)

I think you are being very generous to TGGWS William M. Connolley 08:30, 11 July 2007 (UTC)

William, I think you are engaging in exactly the same kind of debate that Tbeatty is referring to. I have yet to hear anyone refute a number of the claims made in this film that if true would be catastrophic to the notion of "man-made global warming". Yet rather than address those specific points, it is much easier to address the points that are in fact wrong and then declare the whole thing factually incorrect.

Among the points made in the film that are yet to be refuted with sited facts are:

1) CO2 makes up a negligible fraction of GHG's.

Incorrect Greenhouse gases.

2) There are a number of sources contributing many times more CO2 than humans each year.

True but irrelevant, in much the same way that two extra beers per day is significantly less than other parts of one's diet, but will still cause weight gain if no other changes are made.

3) Warming is occurring at the surface not in the troposphere where it is predicted by the Greenhouse Effect.

Incorrect Satellite temperature measurements.

4) The entire cosmic ray theory presented in the film.

Nonsense.[27]

5) That the correlation between CO2 and temperature has been miss-represented.

It certainly has been by TGGWS.Hal peridol 17:02, 11 July 2007 (UTC)

There are probably more that others have noticed, this is just off the top of my head. But I would like to add that there are a number of places where you can find quotes from scientists where they disagree with these notions but facts are never presented, merely quotes. As I am sure you are aware quotes are opinion unless supported by facts.

Would it not be fair to add to the end of this article that these things have not been addressed? Ultimately the goal of the article is to document the film. If in documenting the film, it is deemed necessary to document the portions that are refuted, then it would only make sense to document the portions that have not been refuted. Personally I don't feel that the responses to the film belong on the page at all, but if they are there then this information is relevant as well.

I feel that the state the article right now, is a reflection of the feelings of the most prominent editors who frequent this topic on Wikipedia. This statement is of course true by definition, however the point I am attempting to illustrate with the comment is that you needn't look very far for the origins of the bias in the article. Sqrl 16:36, 11 July 2007 (UTC)

Indeed, you don't need to look any further than the plain facts denied by Durkin.JQ 08:12, 13 July 2007 (UTC)

Conspiracy POV Insertions

Making reference to a citation of "conspiracy" is fine of course, but isn't it biased to insert remarks based on personal opinion? As with:

• State of Fear Novel by Michael Crichton that describes a fictional conspiracy similar to that alleged by Durkin

The machine512 10:08, 13 July 2007 (UTC)

I don't recall durkin alledging a conspiracy in the strict sense, but rather making mention of partisanship, which is quite different. I think blatantly calling his points in the film a conspiracy is somewhat twisted. The machine512 10:16, 13 July 2007 (UTC)

As I said, the title is self-explanatory and the program begins with the claim that global warming is a "lie". The advance publicity says "the greatest scam of modern times". The conspiracy theory, in which Margaret Thatcher paid scientists to lie, so as to promote nuclear power, is quite clearly presented. Numerous commentators have noted the fact that the film presents a conspiracy theory, and no one (at least no one who could be regarded as a reliable source) has denied or rebutted these comments. JQ 11:38, 13 July 2007 (UTC)

It would be the same as putting The Day After Tomorrow in the "see also" section on the article An Inconvenient Truth with the summary "a science fiction movie that depicts possible future weather events alleged by Gore" - using this quote to back it up [28]. I have googled and cannot find a statement where Durkin says anything about State of Fear. --Dean1970 05:17, 14 July 2007 (UTC)

The conspiracy in that novel was nothing like anything Durkin has alleged. In it, people were faking instrument readings, creating earthquakes (IIRC; it's a while since I read it, and I'm not going to re-read it) and so on. I've edited the article accordingly, but I'd be happier to not remove all mention of That Book from this article. CWC 12:30, 14 July 2007 (UTC) Stupid typo struck out 13:54, 15 July 2007 (UTC). Heartily endorse removal of "See also" link.

Unless some third party has explicitly made a link between these two fictional works (TGGWS and SOF), linking them here would be WP:OR. If a commentator has linked them then we could mention it. [quick google...] Ah, have a look at this. Raymond Arritt 14:40, 14 July 2007 (UTC)

I'd forgotten it, but Google also turns up this [29]. However the Guardian link is better. This leaves us with a couple of alternatives:(a) Mention Crichton's book as presenting a fictionalised conspiracy theory similar (in broad terms) to Durkin's;(b) Don't mention it at all. I'm happy either way.JQ 00:16, 15 July 2007 (UTC)

Agreed. The article is already waaaaaaaay too long, so I'd lean toward not mentioning. Raymond Arritt 00:22, 15 July 2007 (UTC)

Being as Crichton's book is admittedly a work of fiction, it does not seem to belong on a page which discusses a real-world topic. If we were to include State of Fear on this page, then by the same logic we could include a link to the film Capricorn One on the article about Apollo 11. Now, TGGWS has problems. I do not deny that. So, arguably, does An Inconvenient Truth, or any other documentary on a controversial subject, even if not to the same extent. But despite its flaws, TGGWS is set in a real-world context. State of Fear is not. Unless we want to redefine the boundaries of what is relevant to an article and what is not, it would be best to exclude the inlink to State of Fear entirely. ~ S0CO^{(talk|contribs)} 00:28, 15 July 2007 (UTC)

We seem to have consensus, so I've deleted it.JQ 02:50, 15 July 2007 (UTC)

Rebuttal by Chris Merchant

In case somebody would like to add this to the article: Chris Merchant from the University of Edinburgh has produced a nice rebuttal entitled "Scam of the 'Great Global Warming Swindle'". Google Video Bittorrent 115 MB. AxelBoldt 17:49, 29 July 2007 (UTC)

Adding External Links

Should there be a link to the actual program on Google Video? Revolutionaryluddite 18:39, 15 August 2007 (UTC) [30]

It's not allowed for copyright reasons. Iceage77 18:47, 15 August 2007 (UTC)

Okay Revolutionaryluddite 18:50, 15 August 2007 (UTC)

Claim in the film without criticism

The film "Claims that all sceptics are funded by private industry (such as oil, gas, and coal industries) are false and have no basis in fact." While nearly all scientists who disagree with most or part of the popular media views on climate change are doing so out of their good-faith-based research of the scientific record, there also has been a well-documented misinfromation campaign by Exxon. The 'criticism section' doesn't mention this. Revolutionaryluddite 21:25, 15 August 2007 (UTC)

SO2 levels

Durkin said "Thanks to China and the rest, SO2 levels are far, far higher now than they were back then. Why isn't it perishing cold?"

Is there any record of sulfur dioxide levels over history? I looked in the sulfur dioxide article but only see US emissions for last few decades and note that Chinese emissions are only now approaching that of the US in the eighties. Is Durkin actually talking about sulfate? Because the climate change attribution graph shows sulfate levels declining since 1900 so he would clearly be wrong there. And the attributions page quotes "In the second half of the century we find that the warming is largely caused by changes in greenhouse gases, with changes in sulphates and, perhaps, volcanic aerosol offsetting approximately one third of the warming." which suggests that sulfate levels have increased (so the cooling effect increased), but the much greater rises due to CO2 have overridden the effect.

I guess what I'm asking, is whether Durkin was wrong about global SO2 levels being highest now relative to the past? Obviously he doesn't understand (or want to say) that the increase in coolant could be negated by the increase in greenhouse gas. His claim here doesn't seem to be dealt with in the article. 172.188.190.67 09:19, 18 August 2007 (UTC)

Check out doi:10.1016/j.chemosphere.2004.08.022. According to Stern, global sulfur emissions peaked in 1989 and were dropping since then, at least until 2000 when his data ends. Nils Simon 11:37, 18 August 2007 (UTC)

They look fairly linear up since 1900 at Image:Climate Change Attribution.png. But Durkin is being deliberately stupid: the point is the balance between sulphate and CO2, not the absolute values William M. Connolley 09:40, 4 September 2007 (UTC)

Online poll

I can certainly see why "Voodoo poll" seems like a POV link, but that is the name for Wikipedia's article about online polls and similar surveys. Online polls are very different from normal opinion polls and the "opinion poll" article doesn't cover online polls at all. If someone wants to create an "Online poll" article(or move an existing article to that name, then we could link to that instead. ·:· Will Beback ·:· 00:27, 4 September 2007 (UTC)

As regards the representativeness of the respondents, the studio audience was stacked with supporters of Lyndon LaRouche. I imagine they voted early and often in the online poll. JQ 07:19, 4 September 2007 (UTC)

The link currently points to Voodoo poll, which is almost a stub, is completely unreferenced, and says in the first sentence that it is a pejorative term for an opinion poll. I don't think it's a good link in this context. I really dislike it on Wikipedia when the link is to something significantly different to the linked text, and (quite apart from Voodoo Poll's lack of references), I don't think someone clicking on the words "online poll" would expect to be taken to "Voodoo Poll". If no "online poll" link exists, then the correct approach is either to not link it, or to link it anyway. The red link is essentially a hint to someone to go and create the article.

The fact is I haven't been able to find a darn thing about the poll except what's in the external link, and that's the bare statement that 45% of people who responded to the online poll after the programme were sceptical of global warming. Now, you have every right to think this of extremely dubious validity, but without more detail as to how the poll worked, how is it Verifiable that it was a Voodoo Poll? It's a theoretical possibility that Gallup conducted the online poll and used various methods to try and make it representative. I agree that's pretty darned unlikely, and the poll probably has about as much validity as conducting a straw poll at an oil conference, but why don't we just say that we don't how the poll was conducted, and have done with it. --Merlinme 09:10, 4 September 2007 (UTC)

Unfortunately, virtually all online polls appear to share the trait of a self-selected pool of respondents. Hs anyone ever heard of one that wasn't? "A voodoo poll will tend to involve self-selection, will be unrepresenative of the 'polled' population, and is often very easy to rig by those with a partisan interest in the results of the poll." So we're talking about the same thing. The article on "voodoo polls" includes five references establishing the usage that includes "online polls". I'll work on finding more sources and moving the article to a less pejorative name. Regarding this page, though, if we're not sure of the value of the poll it might be better to leave it out rather than try to hide its faults. ·:· Will Beback ·:· 18:31, 4 September 2007 (UTC)

PS: This appears to the online poll in question: "Do you think human activity is a significant contributor to global warming?" Yes: 52.23%, No: 45.14%, Don't know:2.62%, Total votes: 2060.

Again, since it has no statistical or scientific merit, I don't see a good reason for including it. If we do include it, shouldn't we give the largest result first? ·:· Will Beback ·:· 19:09, 4 September 2007 (UTC)

I'm proposing deleting all mention of the online poll because online polls are useless. Any objection? ·:· Will Beback ·:· 21:40, 6 September 2007 (UTC)

Given that it doesn't even seem to say what the sceptics want it to say (a majority actually thought human activity is causing global warming), I can't really see any point leaving it in. --Merlinme 16:58, 7 September 2007 (UTC)

Delete per Will. Inane things like online polls shouldn't be dignified by their inclusion here. Raymond Arritt 17:01, 7 September 2007 (UTC)

Per the responses here I've deleted mention of the online poll. ·:· Will Beback ·:· 19:55, 9 September 2007 (UTC)

Opening paragraph

I changed "scientific opinion" to allegation removing a link to another page which suppresses the petition Project. This was reverted by a claimed engineering student asserting it "unacceptable" and claiming the 18,000 signature petition is "debunked." I then received intimidating messages in my own page, not here, claiming I'd hurt their feelings, violated policies and so forth. Everything I wrote here was deleted and, having seen these tactics before, can stay that way because I am gainfully employed elsewhere. The video remains unsuppressed, and anyone who cares to see scientists begging leave to doubt the politicians can google Petition Project. translator 02:33, 6 October 2007 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by Interpreter (talk • contribs) 02:25, 6 October 2007 (UTC)

I think that Interpreter is making a valid point. There seems to be a big effort at Wikipedia to malign the dissenters against the man-made climate change theory. However, I don't think "allegation" is the best term for the intro (as he says, that was reverted anyway.) I have substituted "dominant theory," but I kept the link to the other Wikipedia article. This is intended to be a compromise and I hope that it doesn't get reverted again. --Gelsomina 13:41, 7 October 2007 (UTC)

Since the current Scientific theory is the only one. You can hardly say dominant, since the implication of the word dominant, is that there are other equally valid theories. Since there is no other such theory (but a few hypothesis') its misleading. (and it misrepresents the linked article). --Kim D. Petersen 14:03, 7 October 2007 (UTC)

I disagree. There are other theories which maintain that climate change during recent history is caused by the same factors which caused climate change before the industrial revolution, or which cause climate change on Mars today: solar activity and/or cosmic radiation. --Gelsomina 06:04, 13 October 2007 (UTC)

No. None of these rises to the status of a scientific theory. At best they are hypotheses, usually refuted ones. They have no standing in the scientific community. --Stephan Schulz 07:26, 13 October 2007 (UTC)

So you are claiming that all climate change before the industrial revolution, including the ice ages, is a complete and utter mystery to climatologists? That there is no accepted theory to explain it? --Gelsomina 14:27, 16 October 2007 (UTC)

Huh? Are we speaking the same language? I was talking about theories explaining the current climate change, not previous ones. If I find a corpse with a bullet in his head and a reasonable bleeding pattern, I am strongly drawn to the conclusion that he was shot - despite the fact that most previous deaths are not due to shooting. I can speculate that he died of other causes, of course. But then I find no poison and no pathogens, he seem to be in good health otherwise and well-nourished, and its very hard to account for the bullet if he was already dead. I have no trouble discarding the Voodoo hypothesis in that case... --Stephan Schulz 14:46, 16 October 2007 (UTC)

Your analogy trivializes climate change. A change as profound as an ice age indicates enormous processes at work. If such processes changed climate before, what makes you so certain that these processes are not still active? And perhaps more to the point, on what authority are you discounting those who claim that they are? --Gelsomina 14:52, 16 October 2007 (UTC)

These processes are certainly still active. But none of them, and no reasonable imaginable combination, would produce a signature like the current episode of global warming. And I say so based on both my own reading and understanding, and the considered scientific opinion on climate change, as expressed by the IPCC, supported by all leading scientific societies (and a number of minor ones), and vastly predominant in the scientific literature. --Stephan Schulz 15:50, 16 October 2007 (UTC)

In your opinion (because it does seem to be your personal opinion that we are discussing here,) what is causing the melting of the ice caps on Mars? Is the warming observed here on earth more significant than the warming of Mars? --Gelsomina 06:28, 17 October 2007 (UTC)

I don't know what you've been talking about. As I stated above, I am talking about the considered opinion of the scientific community. As for Mars, the "ice caps" are not "melting". Some dry ice (frozen CO2) is evaporating. We have extremely limited knowledge about Martian climate - Viking was only 15 Martian years ago, and we do not have even a local temperature series since then. There is some evidence that parts of Mars may be warming, but no comprehensive view about how wide-spread this warming is, and what the ultimate cause is. What we do know, of course, is that the favourite septical "theory" du jour for global warming on Earth (less clouds caused by less cosmic rays caused by increased solar activity) is inapplicable to Mars, which has a completely different system of ice- and sand clouds in a much much thinner atmosphere with a lot less thermal inertia. --Stephan Schulz 21:41, 17 October 2007 (UTC)

• Note. Gelsomina (talk · contribs) has been blocked as a sock of banned user Herschelkrustofsky (talk · contribs), based on checkuser evidence and editing. ·:· Will Beback ·:· 07:34, 19 October 2007 (UTC)

All roads lead to Rome

These links all go to the same article:

• anthropogenic global warming theory
• global warming theory
• global warming

Is there, then, no difference between the thing - and the theory which explains the thing? We have separate article on motion (physics) and the various laws of motion. --Uncle Ed 01:09, 16 October 2007 (UTC)

What does this have to do with our coverage of this film? Raymond Arritt 01:24, 16 October 2007 (UTC)

Those are just redirect pages, which anyone with a four-day account could have added at any time. For a time, the term "Hopeless failure" redirected a reader to the article on George W. Bush. It really doesn't mean anything here. ~ S0CO^{(talk|contribs)} 04:07, 16 October 2007 (UTC)

See this:

• anthropogenic global warming theory (created June 6, 2007 by Dragons flight)
• global warming theory (created November 11, 2004 by Uncle Ed)

...now that's interesting.

~ S0CO^{(talk|contribs)} 04:14, 16 October 2007 (UTC)