Talk:Tablet (confectionery)

Rambling conversation about name and origin that had no heading for years

I realise that there are many variations on the tablet recipe, all of them enjoyed by different people. The recipe I link to is my family's one, which I hope doesn't contravene policy.

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What gives? How did this get moved from Scots Tablet? I have never heard the term Swiss Milk Tablet. The term only gets 37 hits on Google, mostly from this page. "Scots Tablet" gets 113 hits. --scruss 17:33, 23 Apr 2005 (UTC)

That's simple. I moved it of course. I am Scottish and have been making (and eating) tablet since the 1960s. In Scotland it was always called Swiss Milk tablet or just plain tablet but never Scots tablet. I recognise that people living outside Scotland might well call it Scots tablet (although they should call it Scotch tablet since it is a foodstuff). What Google calls it is neither here nor there since Google didn't exist until fairly recently. What is important is what we Scots call it since we are more than likely the major manufacturers and consumers. In fact checking out your 37 Google hits indicates that many of them refer to Scottish websites (some of which are local agricultural shows with tablet-making competitions) whereas most of the 113 refer to sites outside Scotland. If you want a real authority on tablet, I would suggest contacting the WRI rather than Google. -- Derek Ross | Talk 19:42, Apr 23, 2005 (UTC)

Please don't move this page again. If you know Scots Tablet by another name, add it to the article, and create a redirect from your named page. --scruss 17:58, 23 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Please give me a good reason why it shouldn't be moved again. I'm still waiting for one. -- Derek Ross | Talk 19:46, Apr 23, 2005 (UTC)

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I'm Scottish too, Derek; it's only in the last three years that I moved to Canada. My family has known it as Scots Tablet, or just plain Tablet, since the 1940s. As I kid, I'd go to numerous coffee mornings and sales-of-work, and it was always "Tablet" or Scots Tablet". Until yesterday, I had never heard the term "Swiss milk" for condensed milk. It must be a regional thing.

A good reason not to move the article again? Tablet is known by many names. I created the article under the name Scots Tablet, because I knew it under that name while living in Scotland. If you had created the article as Swiss Milk Tablet, and I'd found it, I would have respected where you'd put it, but added a link or reference to the term Scots Tablet.

Also, the Glasgow Sunday Herald didn't complain about the naming when they linked to my recipe in 100 Things To Do In Scotland Before You Die. Am I Scottish enough for you now? --scruss 15:07, 24 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Obviously blue and white all the way through (and in a similar position to myself vis-a-vis Canada)! But getting back to the main topic, I don't think "Swiss Milk" is a regional name. The link that I gave is from Edinburgh and I saw several others which I didn't give, one being memories of a Dundee childhood, others referring to results from agricultural shows in Colonsay and in Stranraer, and in Aberdeenshire. That pretty well covers the whole country south of Inverness. I more inclined to believe that the name "Swiss Milk tablet" was originally coined in contrast to the older "Cream tablet" which you mention in the article as the traditional recipe. It's more probable that you always heard it called "tablet" because that is what everyone calls it in conversation. I would imagine that "Swiss Milk tablet" is its "Sunday" name, to be found only in recipe books, agricultural show class names -- and encyclopedias. However I'm not going to move it again without the support of references since it's obvious that both of us are relying on our personal experience which differs. I'm not currently in a position to do that since I'm visiting Houston and don't have access to any recipe books. And in any case I won't move it unless I can convince you that it's the right thing to do. Cheers -- Derek Ross | Talk 17:24, Apr 24, 2005 (UTC)

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Nothing to do with the above but I note that you say that your Aunt's results were better than your own. This is possibly because she used castor sugar (sold in Canada as berry sugar) rather than granulated sugar. Doing so improves the texture by reducing the grittiness of the final product. -- Derek Ross | Talk 18:57, Apr 24, 2005 (UTC)

I don't think she used caster sugar, Derek. As the sugar goes through a full melt when making tablet, the size of the initial grains doesn't matter --scruss 15:26, 2 July 2007 (UTC)

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Okay, I've had a think about this. The compelling reason not to move the article to Swiss Milk Tablet is that it might make people think the confection is traditionally from Switzerland. The term itself might be a trademark; the old posters used to have "Nestlé's Swiss Milk" as the banner. Use of "Swiss Milk" to denote condensed milk is confusing, for it's an American invention.

I'm also not sure that using finer sugar would have much effect on the finished product. The sugar has to dissolve, then reach melting point as the water evaporates. There should be no crystals remaining from the original sugar; the old confectioner's term for this was boiling sugar back to sugar. The only things I've found that affect flavour and texture are using beet sugar (which makes it taste of turnips, yuck), and using any kind of brown/golden sugar, which causes interesting lumps of molasses to precipitate. The result's tasty, but it ain't tablet. --scruss 01:54, 26 Apr 2005 (UTC)

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After investigation, I find that there are two recipes for tablet. The older one just uses milk and sugar. It is known as Cream Tablet. The newer one uses condensed milk and it is known as Swiss Milk Tablet. The article already alludes to the two recipes but doesn't mention the different names. -- Derek Ross | Talk 07:06, Jun 4, 2005 (UTC)

Just to add some more conflicting viewpoints to the mix, I've only ever heard of the name "tablet". Neither Scots [sic] or Swiss Milk tablet would have meant much to me in other circumstances. Scotch tablet makes most sense in the same way we'd use Scotch whisky abroad or just whisky here. My relatives are from the Perth/Edinburgh/Lothian areas, if that helps things any. -- 81.131.73.198 01:51, 31 July 2005 (UTC)

That's fair enough. The only places that you might see it called Swiss Milk tablet would be recipe books, sweet shops or at an agricultural show. Otherwise as you say, it's almost always just called "tablet". -- Derek Ross | Talk 02:04, 13 September 2005 (UTC)

Well my mother's family are from the highlands (now mostly Skye) and I was brought up to cook (and eat) tablet there. Tablet was the only name by which I knew it. Marian McNeill in 'The Scots Kitchen' cites the Household Book of Lady Grisell Baillie (1692-1733) as listing among the purchages 'taiblet for the bairns'. 'Tablet' as a term by itself seems then to have a decent pedigree. Indeed my cookbook 'The Glasgow Cookbook' (1965) calls it 'vanilla tablet' or 'walnut tablet' or whatever. I suspect that 'Swiss Milk Tablet' is of more recent origin and either referred to a specific recipe or ingredient. The more generic name seems better for an encylopedia entry.

Mind you, in the family its normally known as 'fudge', and only called 'tablet' to distinguish it from the nasty chewy thing the lowlanders eat. Its also unclear why one needs the 'Scots', but that's another debate. I still make the stuff with cream and sugar, there's no need to use condensed milk unless you are really useless at cookery. Francis Davey 18:49, 12 December 2005 (UTC)

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you say potato, I say potato. You say tomato, I say tomato. Swiss Milk Tablet, Scots Tablet, Tablet, whatever. Perhaps (Swiss)milk tablet refers to the name Nestlé (a Swiss company, I think?) Nestlé over time became Swiss to mean any tin of condensed milk (you know, Hoover meaning any vacuum cleaner) as in the receipes in the Scottish Women's Rural Institute for 'Swiss Milk Tablet' and 'Swiss Milk Toffee' from whence I travelled to this page to find out what the hell '1 tin of Swiss milk' meant since I had no idea. I knew only tablet in speech (I am originally from Clydebank) but there were many different types of tablet sold over the counter, including, I think, Swiss Milk Tablet. Perhaps this was meant to convey a superior quality of tablet, you think?) I have no connection whatsover to the Scottish Women's Rural Institute, I collect recipe books -- this one was collected on a trip back home. - Anonymous

There was a 19th century American producer of condensed milk known as the Anglo-Swiss Milk Company. This is probably where the term Swiss Milk meaning condensed milk comes from. -- Derek Ross | Talk 18:42, 7 January 2006 (UTC)

Proposed deletion of 26 Dec.

On 25th Dec User:Oo7565 proposed that this article be deleted because it was "non noteabl sunject outside scotland not importent enough to be on here". I stopped the proposed deletion because this topic has a far longer history than most of the confectionery items listed on Wikipedia and is known under other names in other countries (the article gives details), thus showing the proposer's reasoning to be faulty. --- Derek Ross | Talk 07:25, 26 December 2006 (UTC)

Indeed, tablet is known (and made) in other parts of the United Kingdom. Francis Davey 21:50, 27 December 2006 (UTC)

Yes, thanks. I missed that while I was away. --scruss 23:33, 6 January 2007 (UTC)

Naming issue

I note that everyone in the above discussion agrees that the common name is simply "tablet"; wouldn't that suggest moving to tablet (confectionery), or some disambiguation to that effect? Alai 02:55, 16 June 2007 (UTC)

Most of us would probably agree, Alai. We just have to convince scruss. -- Derek Ross | Talk 04:53, 23 June 2007 (UTC)

move it there if you wish, but please keep a redirect - there appear to be external links to Scots tablet --scruss 15:23, 2 July 2007 (UTC)

Butter Tablet

is this the same thing as butter tablet? It looks and sounds as if it's one and the same.... 81.149.182.210 (talk) 02:47, 31 October 2008 (UTC)

Yes it is. -- Derek Ross | Talk 04:40, 31 October 2008 (UTC)

It can be, meaning that it is butter that is used rather than an alternative fat. Of course, tablet should only ever be made with butter. However, I have had 'butter' tablet which appears to have been made with more butter than usual, presumably to give a rich taste or imply superior quality. But it doesn't work,- the use of butter/sugar ratio greater than 1:9 interferes with the crystallisation of the sugar giving a 'heavy' or 'damp' textureHicon (talk) 19:06, 26 April 2010 (UTC)

Sugar and cream (the traditional recipe) works fine for me and the result is much appreciated. Francis Davey (talk) 23:51, 7 January 2011 (UTC)

Russian Fudge

Is it the same thing as Russian Fudge? I note no mention of russian fudge on wikipedia at all. Any ideas? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 125.238.252.75 (talk) 07:03, 1 January 2010 (UTC)

I came here to say the same thing. My guess is yes. Russian fudge appears to be a NZ and perhaps Australian name. Possibly US as well although that's more difficult to tell. I've never heard the name butter tablet or butter fudge before. Nil Einne (talk) 14:08, 8 January 2010 (UTC)

As a datum, I live in the US and know of tablet as a Scottish confection. I've never heard of russian fudge though. The first recipe I find for "russian fudge" is just like tablet. --Elijah (talk) 05:33, 8 January 2011 (UTC)

Russian fudge is a variant that contains golden syrup - it is not the same as a traditional tablet recipe.

Texture

Okay, this varies a bit depending on the recipe and for how long it's been boiled but in my experience it's grainy and slightly crystalline; it breaks when you bite it; it dissolves fairly quickly in your mouth if you let it and it is just on the edge of being brittle. "Chewy" is how I would describe caramels or fudge (although a piece of fudge is much softer than a caramel) but I wouldn't really use it in a description of tablet. If it's been boiled too long it becomes quite hard and brittle; if not boiled long enough, it's soft and verging on syrupy. Comments ? -- Derek Ross | Talk 20:04, 20 June 2011 (UTC)

I've always aimed for almost brittle (so it breaks when you bite it). The traditional tablet made at home and near my grandparents home in the Highlands was of a similar kind. "Chewy" would be wrong. I mean obviously you can chew anything, but I don't think its a helpful description. I'd agree with you on that score. Francis Davey (talk) 21:55, 20 June 2011 (UTC)

Sounds like we're on the same page then, Francis. Anyone else ? -- Derek Ross | Talk 22:51, 20 June 2011 (UTC)

Tablet has a grainy texture that crumbles under stress. It could never be described as "chewy". -- Scjessey (talk) 17:35, 21 June 2011 (UTC)

Swiss Milk

As other editors have pointed out, the use of "Swiss Milk tablet" as a name on this article is probably inappropriate. It is akin to referring to a vacuum cleaner as a "Hoover" and a tissue as a "Kleenex". I propose that we remove it from the lede. We could mention further down in the article that the term has become prevalent in Scotland because Nestle's condensed milk carries that brand name, but I'd rather we didn't do that either. Thoughts? -- Scjessey (talk) 19:27, 27 May 2013 (UTC)

That's rather a selective reading of the discussion above and if people call it "Swiss Milk tablet" who are we to say otherwise? I wouldn't use the term but people clearly do, including no less an authority than the WRI, per my citation. They also list a Swiss Milk toffee. Mutt Lunker (talk) 19:51, 27 May 2013 (UTC)

Again, we are talking about an obscure source that does not specifically state that "Swiss Milk tablet" is a common name for tablet. At best, it is just an example of usage. The word "Hoover" is very common when describing a vacuum cleaner, but the Wikipedia article doesn't list it as an alternative term for the device. -- Scjessey (talk) 19:53, 27 May 2013 (UTC)

If you regard the WRI as an obscure source in regard to Scottish cuisine I think you'd better duck out of the discussion now. Removing a reliable source but leaving the material thus uncited seems rather a destructive course? Mutt Lunker (talk) 19:56, 27 May 2013 (UTC)

It is absolutely not a reliable source when it comes to citing a reference that "Swiss milk tablet" is a common name. As I said before, it is just an example of usage. And as I said above, it is my belief that "Swiss Milk tablet" should be excised from the article because it relates to a brand name. That is why I opened this discussion. And who the hell do you think you are to be telling editors they should duck out of a discussion, especially when I'm the one who started the discussion? -- Scjessey (talk) 20:10, 27 May 2013 (UTC)

If it is a brand name it's a pretty archaic one, not a current one as far as I'm aware (possibly generic rather than specific?) and even if it is, if that's what people call it, who are you to censor it on those grounds? I'm suggesting that if you lack sufficient knowledge that you regard the WRI as an obscure source in this field, you are likely to be be out of your depth. (Not that it's particularly relevant but regarding hoovers "in Britain the name Hoover became synonymous with the vacuum cleaner so much so that one "hoovers one's carpets"".) Mutt Lunker (talk) 20:25, 27 May 2013 (UTC)

Another example of usage then is Dundee Council's web site and the tourist board specifies it as an alternate term to plain "tablet". Mutt Lunker (talk) 20:44, 27 May 2013 (UTC)

Do we have a reliable source stating that "Swiss Milk" is a brand name? Do we have a reliable source stating that "butter fudge" is a common name for tablet? I would have thought that "Swiss Milk tablet" was a more common name for this sweet than "butter fudge" or "butter tablet". And yet we are not allowed to mention it? Why is that? Wikipedia is supposed to take a neutral view on trademarks, neither promoting nor avoiding them. So why should the possibility that this name may be based on a 19th century brand be important enough to make us want to suppress the name altogether? -- Derek Ross | Talk 22:17, 27 May 2013 (UTC)

Quite. Regarding "butter tablet", as with "Swiss Milk tablet" it's not a term I'd employ myself but I think have rarely seen it used for commercially available packets of the stuff (for export out of Scotland?). Butter fudge is a type of fudge (funnily enough) so clearly ought not to be here as a synonym for tablet. Mutt Lunker (talk) 22:48, 27 May 2013 (UTC)

And if trademarks and brand names are such a "no-no", perhaps we should look at the "Oreo" article which doesn't even acknowledge that "Oreo" is a brand of custard cream. Why is this allowed if Wikipedia goes to such lengths to erase brand names from articles? -- Derek Ross | Talk 00:29, 28 May 2013 (UTC)

It appears editors here are adopting a rather "Scottish only" view about this. The term "Swiss Milk tablet" is not used outside of parts of Scotland. In England and Wales, for example, the product is referred to as "butter tablet" or (less common) "Scottish tablet". Sainsbury, Tesco and numerous smaller producers sell it as "butter fudge". It is similar in other parts of the world, where I have also heard it referred to as "hand-rolled fudge" (even though it isn't really fudge). "Swiss Milk" didn't exist outside Scotland (it was called "Carnation" everywhere else). It makes more sense to have a note in the body of the article about the "Swiss Milk" name, but the lede should only contain the generics. And for the record, only "Golden Oreos" resemble custard creams, but are otherwise nothing like them. -- Scjessey (talk) 12:31, 28 May 2013 (UTC)

Custard creams come with strawberry, vanilla, chocolate, coffee and no doubt other flavours for the filling. They also come with various forms of biscuit including chocolate-flavoured. So to say that Oreos (of whatever type) are not a form of custard cream, seems a little odd. The standard ones certainly look and taste like a chocolate-flavoured custard cream with a vanilla filling to me. In any case you are avoiding the point, that whether the word refers to a custard cream or not, it is indubitably a brand name. -- Derek Ross | Talk 13:53, 28 May 2013 (UTC)

If tablet was at all commonplace out of Scotland you might have a point but in over twenty years of regularly being in England (much less so in Wales) I have yet to come across someone (as far as I can remember) who previously even knew what tablet was when offered it, unless they had a family connection or the like to Scotland. It is after all a Scottish item so what it is called there is clearly of more significance. I'm interested to learn that it can actually be found in England as I have to bring a sack load of the stuff, along with soor plooms, when I go to our London office if I'm to avoid being lynched as it is regarded as a previously exotic and unknowm item to my non-Scottish colleagues and a rare and welcome taste of home to the Jocks and part-Jocks. If it does occasionally show up out of Scotland, any handle given to such a comaparatively unusual item by commercial outlets trying to market the stuff to punters who have probably not encountered it before is of much less relevance to this article. That you believe these terms should take precedence over a term widely, generically and verifiably used where the stuff is largely made and consumed seems bizarre. Tablet is even rarer outside the UK. A type of fudge (your actual fudge) called butter fudge exists so having it here as a term for tablet is at the very least confusing. That said, if it can be ascertained that tablet/taiblet is the conventional name (personally I think so but that's purely based on what people call it where I'm from) a separate section on alternate terms may be useful but not a miscellany of non-standard terms from where the stuff is rare or largely unknown (which I would contend is everywhere out of Scotland). What evaporated milk is or isn't called where tablet is not largely made or consumed is irrelevant (it was Carnation in my household (Swiss milk may thus have been employed as a term to avoid the brand name?)). Mutt Lunker (talk) 13:36, 28 May 2013 (UTC)

It is largely known in England, Wales, Australia, Canada and a number of other Commonwealth countries. To think it is only a Scottish thing is absolutely crazy. I've never been to Scotland, but I've been eating the stuff my whole life. I can buy it readily here in the United States (where it is usually called Scottish Tablet or Butter Fudge). You people need to look beyond your borders a bit more often. -- Scjessey (talk) 14:17, 28 May 2013 (UTC)

I am fairly rarely within "my borders" these days (and for some considerable time) and I believe that is the case for the third participant in the debate. From your user page you seem to be a big fan of the stuff so presumably are on the look-out for it, possibly skewing your view on the matter. It can be found out of Scotland but it is nonsense to say that it is anything like widely known. Go into any sweet shop in Scotland and many corner shops and newsagents and you'll find it. It's a rare and occasional discovery elsewhere. Mutt Lunker (talk) 14:33, 28 May 2013 (UTC)

True, Mutt. I left Scotland for Canada 10 years ago and only go back occasionally. Because of my job I travel globally and have done since the 1990s. My experience is that almost everyone inside Scotland knows what tablet is and almost no one outside Scotland does. That's not to say that I've never come across it in other parts of the world but it has been rare. -- Derek Ross | Talk 05:05, 29 May 2013 (UTC)

That's insane. It's in every Tesco, Sainsbury and Waitrose in England. It's widely available. Here's just a few examples: Sainsbury, Tesco, Chiltern, Cornish, Somerset, Cornwall. Can't find a link, but they sell it by the pound in my local grocery store in my part of Pennyslvania, imported from Canada. -- Scjessey (talk) 14:42, 28 May 2013 (UTC)

Er, you seem to be confused between fudge and tablet. Yes fudge is widely available throughout the planet. Fudge is not tablet. Mutt Lunker (talk) 14:52, 28 May 2013 (UTC)

No, it is you who is confused. I know the difference between fudge and tablet; however, producers of tablet often refer to their product as fudge (even though it isn't fudge). For example, Sainsbury's "Butter Fudge" is identical to tablet in every way. I don't know why they insist on using the incorrect term "fudge", but they do. Tesco used to call their product "Scottish tablet", then they changed it to "butter tablet", and now they call it "butter fudge", but it is still the same product. -- Scjessey (talk) 22:09, 28 May 2013 (UTC)

I'm confused that you are advocating the term butter fudge whilst also recognising it is wrong. Perhaps a note that unconventionally and in recent years, some (English-based only?) firms have been (mis)labelling tablet as fudge but if you're objecting to a long-standing and verifiable term like Swiss milk tablet and you yourself know the difference, reference to tablet as fudge has at best to be relegated to an alternative names and misnomers section, or the like. This sentence from a version several years ago, or an elaboration and expansion of it could go some way: "Tablet is occasionally referred to as Butter tablet, Scots tablet or as Swiss Milk tablet, since some people call condensed milk "Swiss Milk"." That's a point that I'd forgotten to note incidentally in that it's condensed, not evaporated, milk that's usually used, although I have several recipes with fresh milk. Citations for the full term "Swiss Milk tablet" are mentioned above but a citation for the def. of just "Swiss milk" would be useful for the explanation (I can only find it in ref to tablet as yet). For "Scots tablet", that's what McNeill calls it, though in the plural for the recipe title. Mutt Lunker (talk) 22:24, 28 May 2013 (UTC)

I am not advocating the term "butter fudge". That is something adopted by supermarkets and the like. The correct term is tablet. "Swiss Milk tablet" is only used in Scotland, and only because of the "Swiss Milk" Nestle brand. My personal preference would be to simply say:

Tablet (taiblet in Scots) or butter tablet is a medium-hard, sugary confection from Scotland.

I'd relegate other terms to an independent section in the body of the article. -- Scjessey (talk) 23:57, 28 May 2013 (UTC)

I could go with that but let's cut out "butter tablet" too because it's not that common a name, and just put all the other names in an "Other names" section describing the origins of each. -- Derek Ross | Talk 04:47, 29 May 2013 (UTC)

I suspect that terms like "butter fudge" and "butter tablet fudge" are being used so that people who don't know what tablet is identify what sort of a product it is. Use of the term "butter" is presumably to tell you it is made with butter (not all recipes do) but is also typical marketing speak to try to advertise some "nice" ingredient that the marketers think will make their produce popular. I presume. Clearly "tablet" is the right name for the article since you can make it without butter, Swiss Milk etc and the earliest recipe we have for it does so. Other names can be given if sourced. Francis Davey (talk) 10:05, 29 May 2013 (UTC)

Are we moving then towards a decision to use only the term "tablet" in the lede (possibly also with the vernacular form), all other names in a separate section?

Regarding optional ingredients, my previously mentioned WRI cook book has numerous tablet recipes (qualified as coconut tablet, almond tablet etc.), most of which simply specify milk, only the aforementioned specifies "Swiss milk" and the one which is simply "tablet" without a qualifier has only water, sugar and "flavouring" as ingredients, listing various alternatives for the latter.

I'm travelling and busy currently incidentally so may not be able to implement any such edits, should consensus be reached, for a few days; go ahead the rest of you in that case. (I had thought you had added the term "butter fudge" to the lede Scjessey so apologies if I was wrong.) Mutt Lunker (talk) 23:55, 29 May 2013 (UTC)

Before I forget, I've made at least the initial creation of a separate section on names. Mutt Lunker (talk) 17:17, 5 June 2013 (UTC)

Sainsbury's butter fudge

Prompted by the discussion above and hopeful of finding some tablet (if mis-named as butter fudge) while out of Scotland I swung by a very large Sainsbury's in London. Unable to find it in the confectionery aisle, I asked the shop assistant who was there stocking shelves. After showing me some non-Sainsbury branded fudges but otherwise drawing a blank, on explaining to her that the item I was after was really a Scottish item called tablet, but that Sainsbury apparently labelled it as fudge she told me her manager was, by luck, Scottish and went to find him. He confirmed that they did a Sainsbury's butter fudge but that "it's a fudge, it's no tablet, never in a million years"; that it was soft, not as sweet. The three of us went back to the aisle to look as I was going to try it anyway but the range has apparently changed recently and there was none there, today at least. The manager said that that assistant knew the confectionery range better than anyone in the store and if she didn't know the item, they didn't stock it any longer. Mutt Lunker (talk) 23:37, 11 June 2013 (UTC)

Thanks for sharing that, Mutt. I loved it. But you have to be more careful. The WikiPolice will haul you over for Original Research! -- Derek Ross | Talk 01:41, 12 June 2013 (UTC)

It is possible Sainsbury doesn't stock it anymore (I now live in the US and rarely visit England) but the stuff they had was absolutely the same as tablet. It came in a "Taste the difference" packaging. Tesco still does a similar one. There's no way in a million years you would call the stuff fudge. It's hard, crumbly and very sweet. It's identical to Scottish tablet that I've been eating for years. -- Scjessey (talk) 16:55, 12 June 2013 (UTC)