Talk:Yatung

Requested move 23 March 2021

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: moved. (non-admin closure) Vpab15 (talk) 11:32, 21 April 2021 (UTC)

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Shashima → Yatung – This is the name used overwhelmingly in English language sources. Citations below. Kautilya3 (talk) 23:09, 23 March 2021 (UTC)

• Lamb, Alastair (1989), Tibet, China & India, 1914-1950: a history of imperial diplomacy, Roxford Books, pp. 8–9: "it established a precedent which was followed by the Trade Regulations of 5 December 1893 which provided for the creation of a Trade Mart at Yatung, just across the border from Sikkim in the Chumbi Valley on the main road to Lhasa..."
• Fisher, Margaret W.; Rose, Leo E.; Huttenback, Robert A. (1963), Himalayan Battleground: Sino-Indian Rivalry in Ladakh, Praeger, p. 82 – via archive.org: "Nevertheless, the young Dalai Lama, who had meanwhile been invested with full powers as temporal and spiritual head of Tibet, fled south with his entourage to Yatung, on the Sikkim border, before his escape route could be cut."
• Norbu, Dawa (2001), China's Tibet Policy, Routledge, p. 169, ISBN 978-1-136-79793-4: "Tibetan authorities showed no less an objection to the Anglo-Chinese Trade Regulations of 1893 which agreed to the establishment of a British trade mart at Yatung (Dromo)."
• Wang, Hui (2011). The Politics of Imagining Asia. Harvard University Press. p. 173. ISBN 978-0-674-05519-3.: "The former recognized the British protectorate over Sikkim, while the latter opened up Yatung to commerce, with the English gaining special trading privileges and rights of consular adjudication."
• Fraser, Neil; Bhattacharya, Anima; Bhattacharya, Bimalendu (2001), Geography of a Himalayan Kingdom: Bhutan, Concept Publishing Company, p. 123, ISBN 978-81-7022-887-5: "Yatung in Tibet was the entrepot of commerce and the main centre of exchange for caravans arriving from Paro, Thimphu and Punakha."
• Walcott, Susan M. (2010), "Bordering the Eastern Himalaya: Boundaries, Passes, Power Contestations", Geopolitics, 15: 70, doi:10.1080/14650040903420396: "Yatung was the crossroads, until the 1959 Chinese invasion, for trade between India, Bhutan, Sikkim and Tibet."

An attempt to compare "Shashima" and "Yatung" fails, because the ngram viewer knows nothing about Shashima! -- Kautilya3 (talk) 23:34, 23 March 2021 (UTC)

• Oppose from the article: "During the British Raj era, it was known by its Chinese name Yatung. " really says it all. In ictu oculi (talk) 00:06, 25 March 2021 (UTC)
  • Says what, though? There is nothing in Wikipedia policies about the British Raj era. But there is plenty about recognizability. I have displayed reliable sources until the very recent decades. They all use "Yatung" and rarely even mention that the place is also called "Shashima". -- Kautilya3 (talk) 15:09, 25 March 2021 (UTC)
• Support The Tibetan name appears to be used only rarely in English language sources according to Google Scholar[1] (t · c) buidhe 22:18, 2 April 2021 (UTC)

Support - Seems to be the project:common name. Google News return 26 results for "Shashima" vs 114 results for "Yatung" (go to the last page to see the actual count). The sources in the article also points to "Yatung". ~ Aseleste (t, e | c, l) 09:10, 3 April 2021 (UTC)

• Weak oppose. Sources talking about the British Raj era do seem to use "Yatung", but most English-language sources talking about the modern town seem to use "Xiasima" (or sometimes other variations of Shashima/Shasima/Sharsingma/Xarsingma).[2][3][4] Not sure if there's a WP:COMMONNAME here but I think we should give more weight to sources talking about the modern town, the same way we have articles at Beijing instead of Peking and Sri Lanka instead of Ceylon. Another consideration is that the name "Yatung" is also used for the county, so a title like Shasima/Xiasima is less ambiguous. —Mx. Granger (talk · contribs) 18:31, 8 April 2021 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Original meaning

Mx. Granger, your quote says:

Yadong is a transliteration using Chinese characters of a Tibetan-language place name, meaning "nasal bridge mountain". It is the name of a small village located in the region that is known as "Chomo" in Tibetan and now collectively known as Yadong.

If your translation is correct, the use of "It is..." suggests that it is talking about the current situation. We know the current situation very well. That doesn't tell us anything about the original usage, or how the name came into being.

Let me tell you what I know. We have an extensive coverage of the Younghusband Expedition in 1904, and we have an enumeration of all the villages that existed at that time. There was none that was called "Yatung" other than the location of the "Yatung customs house" (27.42488°N 88.90649°E / 27.42488; 88.90649). This was the location that was allocated to the British for a trade mart, which they continued to call "Yatung", until they established a new trade mart at the present location.

Your source is not stating which village it is talking about. So it is bascially not adding anything to what we know. -- Kautilya3 (talk) 16:38, 27 March 2021 (UTC)

Actually, the first sentence does say that it is the Chinese transliteration of a Tibetan-language place name. What was that place name? -- Kautilya3 (talk) 16:40, 27 March 2021 (UTC)

Hi Kautilya3, the source I cited is talking about Old Yatung. It goes on to describe the history you mention – how the village was allocated to the British for a trade mart, which they later moved, etc.

Chinese grammar does not use tense in the same way English does – I translated "it is", but now that you mention it, it's true that this is a somewhat confusing translation. I'll try to clarify.

The source I cited doesn't give the original Tibetan; it only gives the Chinese transliteration (亚东 Yatung/Yadong) and the literal translation (鼻梁山 nasal bridge hill/mountain). —Mx. Granger (talk · contribs) 16:55, 27 March 2021 (UTC)

Ok, we will assume for the time being that the village was at the hill top, where there is a Kargyu monastery (27.4317895°N 88.9150545°E / 27.4317895; 88.9150545). There might have been a few houses surrounding it, but the more important significance of "Yatung" was the Chinese customs post down in the valley. I am surprised that there was a Chinese customs post at that time (1888 or earlier), despite the Chinese claiming that they had very little influence in Tibet.

Note also that your source repeats the standard polemics about the British "forcibly" opening a trading post, despite the well-known Trade Regulations negotiated by the Chinese themselves, apparently without getting the Tibetan agreement to them. -- Kautilya3 (talk) 20:24, 27 March 2021 (UTC)

Yatung

This is a nice description of Yatung from 1994. page 798. DTM (talk) 13:40, 31 March 2021 (UTC)