|This is the talk page for discussing improvements to the Sake article.|
|This article is of interest to the following WikiProjects:|
|WikiProject Guild of Copy Editors|
"The history of sake can be traced back to the 3rd century in Japan." Where does this date come from? The oldest Japanese documents go back to the 8th century. Is this date from the Wei Zhi, a 3rd-century Chinese history that includes a section on Japan? If so, please add some sort of reference to it.
Sake in Japan is older then 300 BC. Sake doesn’t mean rice wine, which is also a wrong translation since wine is made out of grapes. (Freddy): Wine, I believe, can be made from a variety of other fruits, not just grapes.
Sake written with the Chinese character Jiu which comes from alcohol. So Sake means alcohol. Kuchikami Sake is mouth chewing Sake. It didn’t need to be made of rice and existed already 2000 BC in Japan. Sake made of rice started in the Yayoi period around 300 BC. Sake brewing started around 700, but there are some indications that there has been Sake brewed more early.
I read the following paragraph 4 times and its meaning still eludes me. Maybe somebody who understands what it's saying better than I do can fix it:
"When World War II erupted, the sake-brewing industry was dealt a hefty blow as the government clamped down on the use of rice for brewing. Most of the rice grown during this time was used for the war effort, and this, in conjunction with many other problems, was the doom for thousands of breweries all over Japan. Previously, it had been discovered that small amounts of alcohol could be added to sake to improve aroma and texture. But by government decree, pure alcohol and glucose were added to small quantities of rice mash, increasing the yield by as much as four times. 95% of today's sake is made using this technique, left over from the war years. There were even a few breweries that were able to produce "sake" that contained no rice at all. Naturally, the quality of sake during this time suffered greatly."
I'm ok with this up to the word "Previously", then it goes all muddy. </Freddy>
Freddy, some reference for you at http://www.metmuseum.org This is about when rice cultivation was introduced in Japan. Wine is officially only made with grapes. So you may call something plum wine, rice wine and so on. It still doesn´t mean it´s wine. Hope I answered your questions Sake-simon 00:01, 20 September 2006 (UTC)
That second paragraph about the distinction in brewing beer, wine, and sake is total bullshit. Even if it had references and was clear, a more succinct exploration of sake's etymology in the intro would be sufficient. --- —Preceding unsigned comment added by 220.127.116.11 (talk) 18:11, 29 January 2011 (UTC) The intro paragraph loads up diffrent and vulgar if using IE vs firefox.
"As with other alcohol in Japan, sake is poured with the palm of the hand facing down and the back of the hand facing up, particularly when it is poured for another person. Pouring with the palm of the hand facing up is considered rude and is likely to elicit surprise and disapproval."
This sentence seems a little odd to me. It reads like there is a special way to hold a sake bottle/flask yet when I try to act it out it is the same as holding any other bottle/flask anywhere in the world. And apperantly the rude method would not be just that, but extremely clumsy as well. So either I'm missreading this, the sentence isn't properly formulated or the importance is overrated. Any ideas? --Jimius 15:50, 31 Mar 2005 (UTC)
- It seems odd to me too. The method certainly exists but it's considered rude in many cultures because it so hard to execute that you could only do it on purpose.
- It's not meant for a bottle or flask, but rather a bowl or cup, or perhaps saucer or anything like that, and the sentence just needs to specify that :) -- 18.104.22.168
The photo is neat, but to me it's more of a secondary picture. A better primary photo would be of a bottle or glass of sake, which is how most people usually see it. (Anybody have a digital camera and want to go have sushi this weekend?)
- Would a recipe for sake (brewing instructions) be appropriate for this article? I have an especially good one.
- Please do... --Jimius 15:59, 10 Mar 2005 (UTC)
Not sure if anyone wants to do this, but in anime releases charactors are often seen drinking sake. Could be worth noting as a reference to pop-culture. TomStar81 05:48, 10 Mar 2005 (UTC)
It is said that the alcohol in warm or hot sake is absorbed by the body more quickly, so drinking sake warm was popular during and after World War II to mask the roughness of the flavor due to difficulty of obtaining ingredients.
Huh? Warming sake causes the alcohol to be absorbed more rapidly, therefore it was done to mask the taste? Josh Cherry 19:52, 20 Mar 2005 (UTC)
- Yes, that's what it says. As I read it anyway. It apperantly makes the taste of alchohol more prevailant thus masking the taste of other low quality ingeredients. And when you're drunk enough, everything tastes like water :) --Jimius 13:27, 21 Mar 2005 (UTC)
- I take "absorption by the body" to refer to what happens in the gut. In any case, taste does not involve absorption. So this doesn't make sense. Josh Cherry 00:38, 22 Mar 2005 (UTC)
- Then if you do know the answer then by all means please edit the article, otherwise i'd recommend reaching the author who added that to the article in his/her talk page. He/she may be more able to explain his/her reasoning. --Jimius 02:38, 23 Mar 2005 (UTC)
- I take "absorption by the body" to refer to what happens in the gut. In any case, taste does not involve absorption. So this doesn't make sense. Josh Cherry 00:38, 22 Mar 2005 (UTC)
More than Japan
Since rice wine is referred to by its Japanese name (sake) in English, this subject is dealt with at the location Sake. However, this linguistic fact shouldn't blind us to the wider cultural fact that sake is part of the culture in other East Asian countries. I say we should expand the article by adding details of sake drinking in China at the very least. And how about info on sake sales internationally? Is much of it imported into Europe and America? — Chameleon 13:03, 28 May 2005 (UTC)
Should it be "sake (酒", given that the English term _sake_ is not equivalent to the Japanese term 酒, it is merely etymologically derived from it. Perhaps it is more appropriate as "sake (borrowed from 酒)" or something like that.
Why does the lack of hops make it more like "rice ale"? Most ales are hopped and some (IPA's, American Pale) are heavily hopped with both bittering and aromatic hops. -Jacksjb
- I guess someone was observing that up to the 1500's, beer had hops, ale did not. Nowadays most ales are hopped so this distinction really doesn't matter. I originally added the comparison between sake and beer with the intention of fighting the "rice wine" myth. A comparison to either beer or ale will work equally well, perhaps beverage purists will prefer the ale comparison. Personally I don't think it matters. The Crow 15:28, 3 November 2006 (UTC)
Serving of sake
re: the paragraph that begins:
- "As with other alcohol in Japan, sake is poured with the palm of the hand facing down..."
I am interested in further details of this, or a wikilink it it's explained elsewhere, or a citation or something. --Quiddity 01:15, 5 March 2006 (UTC)
"palm of the hand facing down" sounds like BS to me. I have never heard of this in the 7 years I have been here. Neither has my Japanese wife. I've deleted it "As with other alcohol in Japan, sake is poured with the palm of the hand facing down and the back of the hand facing up, particularly when it is poured for another person. Pouring with the palm of the hand facing up is considered rude and is likely to elicit surprise and disapproval." Naerhu 01:32, 5 March 2006 (UTC)
What they meen is that it is considered rude to pour it by grasping with the right hand then pouring backhanded into a cup to the right of that hand, with the bottle on top, and the hand on the bottom. This is as opposed to the normal way of pouring where if one is using the right hand, he positions the object receiving liquid to the left of that hand and pours into it with the bottle beneath his grasping hand. The "rude" way is unusual world round as far as I know, as it is awkward; though it shares a "rude" quality in Israel. If a person pours "backhanded" here it is also considered extremely rude as that is how someone pours water over a dead body. I'm not sure why it is rude in Japanese culture. Basejumper 13:23, 12 July 2007 (UTC)
Doesnt mean distilled spirit, because that would include vodka, etc. Shochu only includes distilled beverages produced by koji saccrification. 10:05, 5 March 2006 (UTC)
- what are you referring to? I am not sure what you are talking about so it is hard to make a specific response, but sake can refer to vodka, gin, etc.Naerhu 05:02, 23 March 2006 (UTC)
2 points: 1) I guess pouring sake for oneself is bad luck? [Source: Mom] 2) Blatant ad for the glass company? #Serving Sake
The pronunciation in IPA is different from the one given in...the random other system. Which is correct? Ardric47 04:03, 14 April 2006 (UTC)
- The IPA pronunciation is, AFAIK, correct. The one in the "random other system" is incorrect and misleading - I have commented it out. The pronunciation is similar to the SA in sa'lami and the KE in ke'bab said in rapid succession. (Imagine a robot able to pronounce syllables only, and it saying SA LA MI and KE BA B - get the SA and KE bits and you've got the pronunciation of sake) -- Tangotango 15:43, 14 April 2006 (UTC)
- More like the "sa" in "Sam" + the "ke" in "kelp." Less confusing, and closer to the Japanese pronunciation. Exploding Boy 16:26, 14 April 2006 (UTC)
....Which is different from the さ(sa) in sake. Exploding Boy 01:46, 15 April 2006 (UTC)
- The "a" in "Sam" in General American is a nasalized [æ] (I don't want to take the time to look up the combining tilde). I don't think Japanese has that sound, so should it be /sakɛ/ then? Ardric47 02:36, 15 April 2006 (UTC)
To be honest, I don't think those IPA symbols have much value. Most people can't understand the bloody things. And we shouldn't be giving pronunciation guides only applicable to Americans. Exploding Boy 06:24, 15 April 2006 (UTC)
- I managed to record the pronunciation of sake, which I've uploaded and linked to in the first paragraph. -- Tangotango 07:34, 15 April 2006 (UTC)
- having lived in Japan and having been to many an onsen (hotspring bath), I have consumed several gallons of Sake. You say, "Osake Kanpai!" Which means, "To the (honorific) sake!" Sake is pronounced SAH-KEH. Not SA (as in Sam) -KAY, or SAH-KEE. Now I'm going to go do some KAH-RAH-OH-KEH and work on my KAH-RAH-TEH, you AH-MEH-REE-KAHN-SU! SA-YO-OH-NAH-RAH!
- I agree with the pronunciation suggested by this anonymous poster, because I speak Japanese as well. The Japanese word 'sake' is pronounced 'sah-keh' as in the 'so' sound made from saying the word 'sorry' (so•rry; with the syllable separator) Fortunately, everyone pronounces that pretty much the same. but the '-ke' part not everyone can understand. It's 'keh' as in the name 'Kevin' (Ke•vin) Please learn that this is pronounced 'sah-keh.' 22.214.171.124 11:53, 12 August 2007 (UTC)
- He told me it was champagne, but it tasted like sake to me! — NRen2k5 11:38, 16 November 2007 (UTC)
- The pronunciation is currently given as /ˈsɑːkiː/ or /ˈsɑːkeɪ/. The former is incorrect. I've deleted it. ParkKimLim (talk) 08:10, 19 April 2011 (UTC)
- Please see Merriam-Webster Dictionary 2). The pronunciation is usually used in America. ―― Phoenix7777 (talk) 12:27, 19 April 2011 (UTC)
- Yes, but why are we showing an incorrect American pronunciation rather than the correct Japanese pronunciation? ParkKimLim (talk) 02:30, 20 April 2011 (UTC)
- I see that the pronunciation is highly controversial. As of now, the article states that "sah-kee" is the "correct" way to pronounce this and is "backed" by an entry in a dictionary. The Oxford Dictionary gives me "sackay" and "sah-kee". I personally don't know anybody who says "sah-kee" and it is undenyable that "sah-kay" and "sackay" are common. Since everybody just says the word "sake" the way they want, why include the pronunciation (IPA) in the article at all? There is no one correct way to pronounce it in English (and no, dictionaries are no authorities here). I suggest we delete the IPA for the English pronunciation from the article. Fivedays (talk) 04:33, 5 July 2012 (UTC)
This article contains a lot of information about brewing, however it is all scattered throughout the article. I have created a brewing section to explain the basic brewing process, and leaving the details of variations and history to other parts of the article. I expect it should be expanded and refined. The Crow 00:05, 17 June 2006 (UTC)
- A good idea Sake-simon 00:40, 17 June 2006 (UTC)
Useful reference about current production in Kansai
I cited this source in the Kansai region article, but it might be appropriate here. It's about sake production in Japan, particularly in the Kansai area, but also touches on other issues. -- Exitmoose 02:12, 25 January 2007 (UTC)
Alcohol Quantity by Volume
COuld someone add what the normal range of alcohol by colume is for sake. There is a myth that it is highly potent, but my friend NAtsumi told me it is actually light compared to AMerican liquors. Any knowledge? Basejumper 13:27, 12 July 2007 (UTC)
- From Wikipedia article on Rice Wine:
Unlike wine, which is made by fermentation of naturally sweet grapes and other fruit, rice "wine" results from the fermentation of rice starch converted to sugars. This process is akin to that used to produce beer; however, beer production employs a mashing process to convert starch to sugars whereas rice wine uses the different amylolytic process. Rice brew typically has a higher alcohol content (18-25%) than wine (10-20%), which in turn has a higher alcohol content than beer (3-8%). Sake is therefore one of the strongest undistilled alchoholic drinks, but not nearly as stong as drinks made through distillation like vodka or scotch. 126.96.36.199 (talk) 20:08, 4 December 2008 (UTC)
Under doburoku the page mentions that homebrewing is illegal in Japan but a citation is not given. My Japanese friends have told me mixed things about the legality of homebrewing, the laws may even depend on the locality. I think this should be removed unless a clear citation can be found. --HitoriTabi (talk) 08:14, 20 January 2012 (UTC)
Sake is a rice wine/brew
"Sake is often referred to in English-speaking countries as a form of rice wine. However, unlike wine, in which alcohol is produced by fermenting the sugar naturally present in grapes, sake is produced by means of a brewing process more like that of beer. Thus it is more like rice beer than rice wine."
I changed "sake is produced by" to "rice wines are produced by", because the wording seems to falsely imply that sake isn't a rice wine, or that other rice wines aren't similar. But 'Phoenix7777' undid my edit with no explanation, and if I redo it he'll probably undo it again. So I'm putting this here instead. LieAfterLie (talk) 12:06, 13 April 2012 (UTC)
- The statement isn't implying anything at all. It is clearly stating that sake is more like a beer than a wine, and why. It's true and if you understand the explanation, I don't see how you can disagree.--Taylornate (talk) 13:49, 13 April 2012 (UTC)
- The distinction is between wine and rice wines, not sake and rice wines, as it is a normal rice wine. Saying 'it is often referred to as rice wine, however' seems to falsely imply that it isn't a rice wine. It just wasn't worded well at all, and I tried to clean it up. LieAfterLie (talk) 16:22, 16 April 2012 (UTC)
- After looking at the article Rice wine, it seems that LieAfterLie is right. This article says rice wine, like sake, is made using a process similar to brewing beer. Confusion reigns, however, as I note that Rice beer redirects to Sake. Wahrmund (talk) 19:27, 16 April 2012 (UTC)
- See, I totally wasn't lying. Plus I imagine they're named after their alcohol content rather than production process, which is more relevant for the uninformed consumer. They do have three times the alcohol of beer, even somewhat more than wine. LieAfterLie (talk) 02:34, 17 April 2012 (UTC)
I guess it's not getting fixed. LieAfterLie (talk) 05:34, 22 April 2012 (UTC)
- I changed the "Rice beer" redirection to "Rice wine." Wahrmund (talk) 16:16, 22 April 2012 (UTC)
I'm mildly surprised that this debate/discussion is still going on. I understand the need for accuracy, and I can understand the need to use common terms. Look, sake is neither "wine" nor "beer", it's sake. However, people use terms like "rice wine" and "rice beer" (though I've never heard it used in conversation) as terms of convenience when answering someone's question, What is sake? They're both misnomers. And English-speaking Japanese that I've known use the term, and probably prefer to use the term "rice wine". (Let's face it, wine is perceived as a more sophisticated beverage than beer). Both terms can be, and probably should be, included in the article, with explanations of accuracy, relevance, and common usage. Maybe the explanations should be put in a separate small section, like English terminology. Boneyard90 (talk) 16:36, 26 May 2012 (UTC)
I'll be doing an addition to the Water section beginning with wanted and unwanted minerals. The claim that most urban breweries import their water I think should be removed. If needed breweries can filter out unwanted components like iron and add nutrients that aid in fermentation. More info on that here http://www.sake-world.com/html/water.html. I'm not saying there isn't a brewery out there that brings in water from offsite, but for most that would be prohibitively expensive.
Also there is a great history about how the Nada ward of Kobe, Hyogo first built a reputation on quality water and became a major production hub. I'll post some references on that if anyone wants to help build that out. Mrbenbell (talk) 15:29, 21 October 2012 (UTC)
Edit by User:Hellafeino
A new contributor, User:Hellafeino, attempted to edit a section of the article, though it was improperly formatted, and possibly opinion. I reverted the good faith edit, and invite User:Hellafeino to come here and explain the type of change to be implemented, its significance, and the reliability of the source. Boneyard90 (talk) 20:30, 3 February 2013 (UTC)