Talk:Ras al-Ayn

Meaning of "Ras al-Ayn"

The article states that the meaning of the name of the town is "head of the spring" - this seems very doubtful as a translation to me, as a person who know arabic (though not an Arab myself). Rather the meaning of "ra's" here is most probably, as in most place names, that of "height" or "[mountain] top", so that the meaning should be (idiomatically) translated as something like "spring hill" or "mountain of the well". Does this sound reasonable to anyone, preferably with knowledge of the area, who reads this? I am going to leave this standing here for a couple of days, and if no remarks are made I'll just change it. That it is old (i.e. pre-arabic) seems most probable, and I have no argument with that. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 47.18.169.243 (talk) 03:17, 28 June 2015 (UTC)

Requested move 9 November 2015

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the move request was: Move. After three weeks and a relisting, we have a rough consensus that this is the primary topic. Cúchullain ^t/c 16:20, 30 November 2015 (UTC)

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Ras al-Ayn, al-Hasakah Governorate → Ras al-Ayn – With the other localities with the same name being relatively small villages, this city and district capital clearly is the WP:PRIMARYTOPIC, see also [1] vs. [2], [3], or [4]. The disambiguation page should be moved to Ras al-Ayn (disambiguation). PanchoS (talk) 21:48, 9 November 2015 (UTC) --Relisted. George Ho (talk) 02:52, 17 November 2015 (UTC)

• Oppose not primary, but it might well be primary for Ras al-Ayn, Syria. Given the recent attacks, people will want to identify the Syrian Ras al-Ayn. In ictu oculi (talk) 07:33, 17 November 2015 (UTC)

• Agree it would be much clearer the primary topic of Ras al-Ayn, Syria. I'm fine with that. PanchoS (talk) 13:38, 17 November 2015 (UTC)

• Support original proposal. Either it's the primary topic or it isn't (I think it is) – using a 'partial primary topic' like "Ras al-Ayn, Syria" helps no one. Jenks24 (talk) 08:40, 30 November 2015 (UTC)

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The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

Control

SDF recaptured the town earlier today.[5][6] --Semsurî (talk) 12:58, 15 October 2019 (UTC)

1977 decree to ban non-arabic place names

Dear editors to the this article. I would like to emphasize that the decree to ban non-arabic place names is sourced, and with a good source. Maybe about the wording we can differ, but as per source, it happened.. I sure do not want to include unsourced info about Serekanye. As per source, it happened, and sincerely, the Arab belt campaign is now not an era, of which Syrian "democratic" institutions can be proud about.Paradise Chronicle (talk) 22:37, 16 April 2020 (UTC)

Does this decree apply to Ras -al-'Ayn? I guess not (see Max Freiherr von Oppenheim multiple works and Ottoman maps, and I am ready to provide more sources). There was no Kurdish name to be arabized in the first place and this is a town with an Arab majority that has existed here for centuries. The Kurdish name is an invention of PYD and that does not make it a fact. I am OK with saying the Kurdish name is used by Kurdish parties, but to to say it was changed by Arabization policies, since this is simply not true. Bring me any document from before 2011 that uses Sere Kaniye? Cheers, Amr ibn Kulthoumعمرو بن كلثوم (talk) 23:45, 16 April 2020 (UTC)

You added a reference from 2014 that is funny to use here. This is a self-published monograph by no-body claiming things without a reference. The arabization piece in his book has no citation in the places he claims so. How about that? Amr ibn Kulthoumعمرو بن كلثوم (talk) 23:58, 16 April 2020 (UTC)

Ottoman times were no Assad times. And the PYD did also not exist in 1977. We can work on the wording, though. The source mentiones the decree banning non arabic place names, "creation of an Arab Belt" and "expropriate Kurds". The source doesn't say it wasn't called Ras al Ayn by the Arabs, it only says a decree banned non-Arabic place names like Sere Kanye. The decree, law or directive (different names in different sources) banning kurdish or non Arabic place names is quite well documented by multiple sources. You can say it is a Kurdish name used by Kurds and the name is banned by a decree, law or directive from 1977.Paradise Chronicle (talk) 02:44, 17 April 2020 (UTC)

You are saying the decree banned something that did not exist. Gunter is giving no reference to where he saw Sere kaniy name banned! He is simply speculating, same for Kobani, but that's a discussion for a different time. The decree might have been applied to some Kurdish-populated villages with Kurdish names, not to an Arab city with an Arabic name. Does that make sense? Amr ibn Kulthoumعمرو بن كلثوم (talk) 20:36, 19 April 2020 (UTC)

Hi Amr ibn Kulthoum, to prove that a Kurdish place name was not represented in maps in a country where Kurdish place names were officially banned...I think this is difficult. I am sure there were Kurdish maps. In Turkey, where the other half of Ras al Ayn lies (Ceylanpinar) is and the Kurds were harshly oppressed, Kurdish documents were confiscated for decades. If you want to prove that Kurdish names were not used in maps...you need to find a source. One that says so, a good source. And it might better fit into the map section, than the Ras al Ayn article, because Kurds sure used their name for City.Paradise Chronicle (talk) 21:48, 19 April 2020 (UTC)

You just shot yourself in the foot buddy. This is exactly what I am asking for. Show me something that says/shows the name Sere Kaniye existed before the decree of 1977 you are claiming! Anything from travelers' stories, international missions (have been tons of those), documentaries, etc. Congratulations, you just found a story from 2013, rather than Gunter's 2014. Showing me an opinion piece from 2013 heavily relying on RECENT wikipedia articles, which are also heavily influenced by pro-Kurdish people like yourself, is not going to change anything. The fact is that you cannot prove this name even existed before the start of the war in 2011, period. Amr ibn Kulthoumعمرو بن كلثوم (talk) 23:53, 19 April 2020 (UTC)

One more thing, I don't know why you reverted a story referenced by your own source (Gunter). If you don't like the source, I am on, let's get rid of it everywhere. Actually, I was not convinced with its quality, given that the author is providing no citation for his claims. Make your mind until I come back! Amr ibn Kulthoumعمرو بن كلثوم (talk) 23:57, 19 April 2020 (UTC)

Comment: Its easy to solve this. Paradise Chronicle should provide an academic reliable source dating to before 1977 mentioning the Kurdish name (serekanye). Otherwise, there is no way to claim that the decree banned the serekanye name. Also, if its a decree, then it means banning all official non Arabic names and replacing them with Arabic names as there is no point from issuing a decree to ban popular usage of names (decrees are for institutions, not for commoners: no one can decree that in my daily life I need to use the work VolksWagen instead of VW for example). So, a reliable academic source should also be provided demonstrating that the name serekanye, not only existed before 1977, but was also used officially then banned. If the argument for not providing such a reliable source is that Kurdish documents were destroyed by the dictators, then this can be disregarded as we dont work on feelings and accusations. If it is not documented, it does not exist.--Attar-Aram syria (talk) 01:41, 20 April 2020 (UTC)

It was a source for the ban on non-arabic place names, I added. It was a secondary source for the 1977 ban in the first source. With the Gunter source you tried to show that a Kurdish name was not known until 2014, which is simply not true and he doesn't say so there, too. Here is another source of Serekaniye from 2013 to the one added before. And another one from 2012. Given your added info of an invented Kurdish name completely unsourced, I have some doubts upon your unsourced edits. I can live with the wording that Serekaniye wasn't "documented" before, but when the first time was when Serekanyie was documented, is a little difficult to confirm, as Serekanyie and other non-arabic place names were banned since 1977. The ban on non-arabic place names (as I understand it) doesn't mean something had to be named officially with a Kurdish name, but just that the Kurdish (non-arabic) name was banned. Of course many towns were renamed in arabic names with the directive, but we don't have the text of all the names that were changed, we just have the names that are in the sources.Paradise Chronicle (talk) 02:41, 20 April 2020 (UTC)

You use the sentence "banned in 1977" to give readers the impression that the city was named serekanye and this name was banned. Therefore, you should provide a reliable source for the name before 1977 or the info about banning non Arabic names is irrelevant and have no place in this article (Gunter does not provide a source for pre 1977 existence of the Kurdish name).--Attar-Aram syria (talk) 03:00, 20 April 2020 (UTC)

@Paradise Chronicle: Your new sources are both from the Civil War era, i.e. after PYD captured the city and decided to rename it, including ANF news, which is just another propaganda outlet for the PYD. The French mandate era was very pro-Kurdish as you know, allowing tens of thousands of Turkish Kurds to move into Syria, giving them lands, jobs and citizenship. Yet, there was no mention of such a Kurdish name, always Ras al-Ayn. Why? Simply because there was no Kurdish name, and no Kurdish population here, only in villages to the east. I am OK with something like this: "After PYD forces captured the city in July 2013, they named it Serekaniye (can use any of your citations here, e.g. NYT, Gunter). No earlier documentation of this Kurdish name is known." Also, this settlement will remove the Gunter reference to the banned names, as it is simply secondary-unbased information. Does this sound fair? Amr ibn Kulthoumعمرو بن كلثوم (talk) 04:22, 20 April 2020 (UTC)

I think it is good now as it is. It has an unsourced phrase that the Kurdish name is "probably" a "modern" literal translation of the ancient name. And a sourced phrase about the many versions of Ras al Ayn in the maps. And a sourced phrase about the ban of non-arabic place names. I think both opinions are shown. The PYD didn't "rename" the city, both names were present during the PYD Government. And there sure was a Kurdish population before. There was a resettlement program for Kurds in the area in the 1970s. Also west of Ras al Ayn. And here an other ref which says Ras al Ayn has a population mix of arabs Kurds and Armenians. The article is from David Enders, who at some time of his life was a senior producer for TRT world. Not really a pro Kurdish media outlet.Paradise Chronicle (talk) 10:36, 20 April 2020 (UTC)

I edited a good-faith compromise sentence as follows: "Although a 1977 decree banned non-Arabic place names[specify].[REF], the earliest use of the name Serekaniye that could be found is a New York Times article of 2013.[REF]" This leaves your decree reference, but with a more neutral and specific context. If you wish otherwise, bring me evidence of earlier use of Serekanye before 1977 (see my earlier comments). I hope you can meet me in the middle of the road. Amr ibn Kulthoumعمرو بن كلثوم (talk) 22:01, 20 April 2020 (UTC)

References

1977 ban on non-arabic placenames 2

Dear Amr Ibn Kuthoum, I'd like to clarify that in the English article about Ras al Ayn the Kurdish name Serekanye in known since 2009. Way before the New York Times article. And even the New York times is after the ANF article I showed here at the talk page. I'd really encourage you to inform yourself a bit before you add phrases containing invented or always into Wikipedia. Specially if you notice your edits are being reverted.Paradise Chronicle (talk) 07:43, 21 April 2020 (UTC)

And the article of the same name on Kurdish Wikipedia has existed since 2008. Konli17 (talk) 09:18, 21 April 2020 (UTC)

Dear Paradise Chronicle, great, then add "This name is known since 2009". Also, this means your reference on the 1977 does not apply here too, given that the name is newer than the decree. This has been my point since Day 1. Amr ibn Kulthoumعمرو بن كلثوم (talk) 21:03, 21 April 2020 (UTC)

Orphaned references in Ras al-Ayn

I check pages listed in Category:Pages with incorrect ref formatting to try to fix reference errors. One of the things I do is look for content for orphaned references in wikilinked articles. I have found content for some of Ras al-Ayn's orphans, the problem is that I found more than one version. I can't determine which (if any) is correct for this article, so I am asking for a sentient editor to look it over and copy the correct ref content into this article.

Reference named "census2004":

• From Al-Hasakah: https://web.archive.org/web/20130408075107/http://www.cbssyr.org/new%20web%20site/General_census/census_2004/NH/TAB08-1-2004.htm
• From Suluk, Syria: "2004 Census Data for Suluk nahiyah" (in Arabic). Syrian Central Bureau of Statistics. Archived from the original on 8 December 2015. Retrieved 15 October 2015. Also available in English: "2004 Census Data". UN OCHA. Retrieved 15 October 2015.
• From Qamishli District: "General Census of Population and Housing 2004" (PDF) (in Arabic). Syrian Central Bureau of Statistics. Retrieved 15 October 2015. Also available in English: "2004 Census Data". UN OCHA. Retrieved 15 October 2015.
• From Kobanî: "General Census of Population and Housing 2004: Ain al-Arab nahiyah" (in Arabic). Syrian Central Bureau of Statistics. Archived from the original on 24 November 2015. Retrieved 15 October 2015. Also available in English: "Syria: 2004 census data". UN OCHA. Retrieved 15 October 2015.
• From Ayn Issa: "2004 Census Data for Ayn Issa nahiyah" (in Arabic). Syrian Central Bureau of Statistics. Archived from the original on 8 December 2015. Retrieved 15 October 2015. Also available in English: "2004 Census Data". UN OCHA. Retrieved 15 October 2015.
• From Sarrin: "2004 Census Data for Sarrin nahiyah" (in Arabic). Syrian Central Bureau of Statistics. Retrieved 15 October 2015. Also available in English: "2004 Census Data". UN OCHA. Retrieved 15 October 2015.
• From Ras al-Ayn Subdistrict: "2004 Census Data for Nahiya Ras al-Ayn" (in Arabic). Syrian Central Bureau of Statistics. Retrieved 15 October 2015. Also available in English: "2004 Census Data". UN OCHA. Retrieved 15 October 2015.
• From Tell Abyad: "General Census of Population and Housing 2004: Tell Abyad nahiyah" (in Arabic). Syrian Central Bureau of Statistics. Retrieved 15 October 2015. Also available in English: "Syria: 2004 census data". UN OCHA. Retrieved 15 October 2015.
• From Raqqa: "2004 Census Data for ar-Raqqah nahiyah" (in Arabic). Syrian Central Bureau of Statistics. Archived from the original on 18 November 2015. Retrieved 15 October 2015. Also available in English: "2004 Census Data *". UN OCHA. Archived from the original on 17 November 2015. Retrieved 15 October 2015.
• From Al-Jarniyah: "Syrian census 2004". HumanitarianResponse. Pcode 'C5965'
• From Turkish occupation of northern Syria: "General Census of Population and Housing 2004" (PDF) (in Arabic). Syrian Central Bureau of Statistics. Archived from the original (PDF) on 8 December 2015. Retrieved 15 October 2015. Also available in English: "2004 Census Data". UN OCHA. Archived from the original on 17 November 2015. Retrieved 15 October 2015.
• From Al-Qahtaniyah, al-Hasakah Governorate: "2004 Census Data for Nahiya al-Qahtaniyah" (in Arabic). Syrian Central Bureau of Statistics. Archived from the original on 10 October 2017. Retrieved 15 October 2015. Also available in English: UN OCHA. "2004 Census Data". Humanitarian Data Exchange. Archived from the original on 2015-12-08. Retrieved 4 December 2015.
• From Al-Malikiyah District: "General Census of Population and Housing 2004" (PDF) (in Arabic). Syrian Central Bureau of Statistics. Archived from the original (PDF) on 8 December 2015. Retrieved 15 October 2015. Also available in English: "2004 Census Data". UN OCHA. Retrieved 15 October 2015.

I apologize if any of the above are effectively identical; I am just a simple computer program, so I can't determine whether minor differences are significant or not. AnomieBOT⚡ 18:12, 6 May 2020 (UTC)

Removal of material

@AntonSamuel: Can you explain the removal of sourced material and references and the addition of a citation needed template instead? There was no edit war as you claim in your edit. The dispute was over one word "Ras al-Ayn" vs. "Rēš Aynā" suggested by user Konli17. I had left it at your last edit (mirroring Konli edit), so this new removal of the entire paragraph altogether is not really justified. Amr ibn Kulthoumعمرو بن كلثوم (talk) 18:20, 8 July 2020 (UTC)

@عمرو بن كلثوم: Regarding removal of the BBC News source - it did not specifically describe the ethnoreligious composition of the city and immediate surroundings, but of the large area between Tel Abyad and Ras al Ayn. The article's Demographics section should be improved with a proper, reliable source that describes the ethnoreligious composition of the city. Regarding the statement that claimed that the city was "always" historically refered to by its Arabic name, with the earlier addition that "no accounts of using a Kurdish name are documented", it shows a clear, non-neutral intent to marginalize any Kurdish or other "claims" while claiming an exclusivity to Arabic claims with regards to the historical mentions of the city, moreover the scope of its claim - that it has always been described that way cannot be said to have been properly sourced. AntonSamuel (talk) 20:12, 8 July 2020 (UTC)

Reference to banning Kurdish names

There is no evidence that the Kurdish name Sere kaniye existed back in 1977 when this alleged decree appeared. Furthermore, the Gunter reference from 2014 does not mention that the name Sere kaniye was banned. The name was mentioned on pages 21, 114, 115 and 116, but no mention of it being banned. Amr ibn Kulthoumعمرو بن كلثوم (talk) 03:36, 20 July 2020 (UTC)

The "alleged" decree from 1977 is mentioned by Gunter, Tejel, HRW, and relief web too. So it is not so much an "alleged" decree, but a well known one. It is mentioned in the article, that Sere Kanye is probably a "modern" literal translation. I moved the phrase on the ban before the mentioning of the Kurdish name Serekanye. Is this better for you?Paradise Chronicle (talk) 12:26, 20 July 2020 (UTC)

There is no reference (or any record) that the Kurdish name even existed when the decree was instated in 1977. My problem is using recent references (e.g. Gunter 2013) to the decree statement here to imply the original name is Kurdish and it was banned, when there is even no evidence it existed back then. The Gunter work does not tell that Sere Kaniye was being used before the decree. The original name is Arabic, the name commonly used is Arabic, and your insertion of this reference here is misleading (WK:UNDUE). The decree might have targeted some villages here and there, but here there was no Kurdish town name being used to be banned. Majority Kurdish town names such as Afrin, Jinderes, Amuda were not changed or banned. Qamishli is Turkish, not Arabic and was not changed, but the village Coban bey (Ar-Ra'i) was changed. Simply put, major town names have always been either Assyrian/Syriac (e.g. Derik) or Arabic (e.g. Ras al-Ain, Hasakah, Tel Abyad, Qubor al-Bid). Some are/were Turkish (e.g., Qamishli, Arab Pinar). Qubor al-Bid is Arabic but still was changed because it had a negative connotation (meaning white graves). Amr ibn Kulthoumعمرو بن كلثوم (talk) 20:10, 20 July 2020 (UTC)

It isn't claimed in the article that any Kurdish name was banned. The Gunter source was only used to source a decree banning non-arabic names which you mentioned is "obviously" in contradiction to "all" the other info in the article. As the decree really existed and is cited by various institutions and well known authors, I thought an explanation might be good. But after this discussion I agree that the decree could have been better used. For the moment I have no opposition to the removal of the decree. If the decree is ever enforced in Serekanye/Ras al Ayn, it can be re-added.Paradise Chronicle (talk) 07:16, 21 July 2020 (UTC)

OK, given this agreement, I will remove the reference to the decree from the article. This is the second time we reach consensus after the Kurdwatch quote in the Tel Abyad article. I appreciate your understanding. Cheers, Amr ibn Kulthoumعمرو بن كلثوم (talk) 06:23, 22 July 2020 (UTC)

Proposed merge of Ras al-Ayn bombing into Ras al-Ayn

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section. A summary of the conclusions reached follows.

To merge Ras al-Ayn bombing into Ras al-Ayn for reasons of both short text and context. Klbrain (talk) 11:19, 23 November 2022 (UTC)

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While the bombing itself is a significant event, it should be merged into the modern history segment of the main article. There is insufficient material here to form a freestanding article Fiddle Faddle 11:38, 3 April 2021 (UTC)

• Merge Agree that this would be better handled in the parent article, where there is already coverage of similar recent events; esp. as it's unlikely that much new content will need to be added (the incident happened 3+ months ago). --DoubleGrazing (talk) 12:11, 3 April 2021 (UTC)
• Merge - change my vote. See comment below. Paradise Chronicle (talk) 23:45, 3 April 2021 (UTC)

There were several bombings in Ras Al Ayn besides the one on the 10 December, like on the 2 January, 3 February the 25 February and maybe we could consider an other article to merge the bombing into. Maybe Timeline of the Syrian Civil War is good for the moment? There will probably be a better article in the future. Maybe with information from the 2020–2021 Ayn Issa clashes and similar articles an article on the side effects of the Turkish offensive into Northern Syria can be created.Paradise Chronicle (talk) 20:07, 4 April 2021 (UTC)

• Merge as initially propossed. The short text in Ras al-Ayn bombing can expand and update the short Ras al-Ayn#Civil War section. Future articles or rearrangements are not prevented by this merge, once editors have a time to write them. Klbrain (talk) 08:18, 22 October 2022 (UTC)
• Merge as suggested in the original proposal. Adding the information to this article provides context that is lacking in its standalone state, but doesn't lock it forever here. If someone creates an article that is more specifically about Turkish offensives, the same information could be copied over to the new article. Joyous! | Talk 00:26, 21 November 2022 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

  Y Merger complete. Klbrain (talk) 11:19, 23 November 2022 (UTC)