Talk:Old Trafford, Greater Manchester
|WikiProject Greater Manchester||(Rated Start-class, Mid-importance)|
M Johnson added a NPOV edit which I have deleted as the original author of this entry on Old Trafford. I would be happy to hear from M Johnson, through this discussion, what he feels is 'not neutral' about the article. The information contained within it is based on facts from the website of St. Bride's Church, Old Trafford, which is a long established CofE church and community centre in the area. Amendments and additions are based on my own knowledge of the area having grown up there and still owning a house in the area. M Johnson's other contributions to Wikipedia seem to have an Australian flavour so it intrigues me why an Australian would wish to profess greater knowledge of the area than a local inhabitant.
I tend to agree with M Johnson. It's the tone rather than the facts - have a look through wikipedia for other examples of 'when you think of .......(old trafford etc). It's a device overused by minor regional journalists - have a watch of channel m or BBC north west. It takes the form 'when most people think of the pigeon fancying slot, they think of boring television, well not anymore!'
I accept this point about the tone and style and will gradually rewrite the article to adopt a more formal tone and support the various assertions with facts as and when I get hold of the evidence. MBP
Chinese Health Center
Is this a health center for Chinese people (use [[Han Chinese|Chinese]]), or a place that sells Chinese medicine (use [[Chinese medicine|Chinese]]? Thanks!--Ling.Nut 15:18, 6 September 2006 (UTC)
It's a Chinese medicine centre, not necessarily reflecting a significant Chinese population in O/T, but Manchester has the second highest Chinese population in the UK after London and some of that is reflected in the proliferation of centres such as this in various parts of the city. Also, I think the change of use of the building reflects wider societal changes, so I thought it worth mentioning. Thanks for your contribution. MBP
To the person who has recently made some edits: you are obviously an informed contributor so I've no intention of messing with your changes. However, a technical, if boring, point about Morrissey: he started life on Harper Street in Old Trafford and moved from there during the mid-60s when his family bought a house at Queens Square, Old Trafford. When this came up for demolition in 1969 his family moved to Kings Road, Stretford. The only point at which he could be said to have lived in Hulme was when he lived at Queens Square, which is so close to the Moss Side end of Hulme you could literally throw a stone into it from there. Some sources quote Queens Square as having been in Hulme but check the old maps, pre slum-clearances: it was in O/T! This is worth quibbling over because he spent his childhood in the kind of Victorian terraced houses made famous by Coronation Street and the iconography of his band, The Smiths. Some of the melancholy of their music could almost be said to be connected with a nostalgia for this lost world. People who want to make out that he grew up in Hulme have an axe to grind: go figure! Sure, Hulme was part of his childhood hinterland but if you want to be really pedantic he never actually lived there. There is a video on YouTube where he talks about all of this. Check it out: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=onEFbTS002U MBP
St. George's is part of Hulme, isn't it?
I've reinstated the original page because a whole chunk was vandalised, removed. The person who made the Morrissey amendment should feel free to make it again if you feel strongly about it. MBP
Old Trafford also had a small Turkish Cypriot population during the 1970s but I can't find much info about this on the web, stats etc. Anybody know? MBP
Under places of worship some wag put Football: Old Trafford, Sir Matt Busby Way so I removed it as vandalism. Enough already!
- It's a problem though when the article about Morrissey contradicts what's said in this article. ---- Eric 19:58, 23 April 2007 (UTC)
There's quite a bit of information about Trafford Park in this article. Wouldn't that be better in the Trafford Park article itself, instead of being repeated here? Fair enough to mention Trafford Park's importance as a major local employer, but surely not details about the park itself? ---- Eric 14:31, 23 April 2007 (UTC)
Old Trafford vs. Stretford
Old Trafford is not a part of Stretford, it is a separate place with a very distinct and separate identity. Ask anyone who lives there! It used to come under Stretford Town Hall for administrative purposes until the changes of the early 1970s after which it became part of Trafford Borough Council. There is ample evidence of this elsewhere in this entry. MBP — Preceding unsigned comment added by 18.104.22.168 (talk) 16:35, 2 May 2012 (UTC)
- The irony is that, as the article describes, Stretford developed as two settlements that merged in the 19th century, the northern one of which was centred on what is now Old Trafford. And it's indisputable that Trafford even today consists of four towns: Altrincham, Sale, Stretford and Urmston.
I have a copy of Trafford, Greater Manchester (1994), produced by Trafford Council (it's what other councils typically call their district/borough guide). In that, Old Trafford is listed as a part of Stretford. For instance (page 25) it mentions the cricket ground and Great Stone Road, under the heading Stretford; and again on pages 69-70, the parks at Old Trafford (Hullard and Seymour) are in the section for Stretford... This isn't pre-1974 Stretford Council, this is Trafford Council in 1994. Equally, has it not occurred that Trafford Town Hall, in Old Trafford, was once called Stretford Town Hall? - That's where Trafford Council put it too (). Can I suggest we revisit the lead, which currently does not mention Stretford? -- 23:45, 22 November 2012 (UTC)
- I have, possibly, a better quote which explains things rather nicely IMHO:
Historically and geographically, Stretford and Old Trafford (Brook's Bar) are unlikely partners - they were combined as Stretford simply because the lords of the manor were the Trafford family. The original Old Trafford area, and out to Brook's Bar, always felt that it belonged more to Manchester, and the local people did not venture often to the King Street end of Stretford, preferring the bustling streets of Moss Side and Hulme
— page 39 of Stretford (1997) by Cliff and Sylvia Hayes
- I'm sure that will help in the improvement of this article. The Introduction (pages 5 and 6) of the same book also put Old Trafford, plus Trafford Bar and Trafford Park, squarely in Stretford.-- 15:05, 27 November 2012 (UTC)
The history of immigration into the area, interesting though it is, should surely be elsewhere in the article? By definition history isn't the present day. ---- Eric 19:53, 23 April 2007 (UTC)
--- It's only recently that an entry has been made on Trafford Park Industrial Estate. At the time of writing this there wasn't a link elsewehere on the site. The stuff about Morrissey here is accurate; information elsewhere cited in Wikipedia is based on info from biogs etc, most of which is inaccurate, or too easily accepting of legend rather than fact. The point you make about immigration is valid but I was attempting to give an impression of Old Trafford beyond the public perception based on the fame of the sports stadiums. Maybe cultural diversity could be a sub-heading in itself as it is, and has been, a significant characteristic of the area for many years, unlike neaby Salford which has a very different profile in this sense. Mikeyboyproduct
Some of these recent additions - about cinemas and 'the film Mandy'- seem more like personal reminsicences than being information relevant to an encyclopaedia. Plus the person who entered this info has made a town halls of the entry about the football and cricket stadiums. Bring back Malleus Factotum or whatever he calls himself.
- I've moved the football and cricket stadiums bit to a new Sports section, as it just seemed to have been dumped randomly where it was. Plus, as you say, it was "town halls". :)
- I do find the Lamdmarks section very odd looking. It seems to be a list of cinemas and bandstands that have been demolished. So how can they be landmarks? --Malleus Fatuarum 22:56, 8 August 2007 (UTC)
I think the business about the cinemas and the film 'Mandy' is interesting but wouild be better off in the discussion page. I remember the Imperial at Brooks Bar but not the other cinemas so was fascinated to discover that there were four altogether in the area. Incidentally, some of the Edith Evans film 'The Whisperers' was filmed in the old library on Stretford Road, which is now the Buddhist Centre. I'm sure Alan Maxted will remember that library and may know about that film. However, I don't see how this kind of thing could be of general interest or that it should be included in what is, after all, supposed to be an encyclopaedia, not a place for 'the remembrance of things past'. I think the same point applies to the inclusion of the names of former MPs. As regards landmarks I could take some snaps next time I am in O/T and upload them to the site. MBP
- I've removed the dubious list of previous MPs. Apart from anything else, a similar list would potentially appear in every article about an area in the Stretford and Urmston constituency. All the previous MPs are available on that article's page anyway. On the subject of landmarks, what would you say were some of the significant landarks in Old Trafford? Ones that haven't been demolished preferrably. :) I suppose the White City facade would be one? --Malleus Fatuarum 17:56, 10 August 2007 (UTC)
I think landmarks, apart from the stadiums, might be the White City gates, as you say, possibly the GMP headquarters, the entrance to Trafford Park, Trafford Road Bridge, maybe pics of Hullard and Seymour Parks, that kind of thing. They'd be local images as much as landmarks. Also, I was thinking a Trivia section, such as some Wikipedia pages have about localities, might be the best place to put some of the stuff that has been discussed here recently. MBP 13/8/07
- Trivia sections are very much frowned on. Perhaps a filmography section for some of the material? So far as a list of demolished cinemas and bandstands is concerned, I don't think it should be in the article at all. I'm not sure they'd be in any way notable even if they were still standing. --Malleus Fatuarum 11:24, 13 August 2007 (UTC)
Strictly speaking Old Trafford continues east past Brooks Bar almost to Chichester Road and ends just before the college, forming a nipple bounded by Moss Lane West to the South and Bold St (M15) to the north. see Google Map of the area.
- Please be bold, and make whatever changes you think are necessary. :) --Malleus Fatuarum 01:40, 6 November 2007 (UTC)
Mike33 is right about the boundary of Old Trafford extending in 'a nipple' bounded by Chichester Street and Bold Street, but Brooks Bar IS a sort of dividing crossroads between the different districts mentioned. Interestingly - depending on your point of view - it is within that 'nipple' that Morrisey lived as a boy. That area is often taken to be a part of Hulme but is in fact part of Old Trafford. Morrisey lived at Queens Square which was demolished in the 60s and a tower block called Opsrey House now stands on the site. When I started this page I originally wrote that O/T was bounded to the north by Trafford Bar and to the south by Brooks Bar, which I knew wasn't strictly true. It's not true in the northerly direction either, since the end of O/T in that direction is Trafford Park industrial estate and MUFC stadium. I was using a bit of geographical license for want of a better phrase. Thanks to Mike33 for his precision. Mikeyboyproduct P.S. It seems a shame that some of the external links have gone - what was the reason for removing them? The Old Trafford News website in particular gives a very accurate idea of the Old Trafford community of today.
Question deleted by poster. 22.214.171.124 (talk) 00:58, 14 July 2011 (UTC)