Talk:Nowruz

Change all terms "Iran" to Persian

Hello,

I beleive it is inaccurate to describe Nowruz as Iranian or as from "Iran" as it undermines all other regions which are also persian. The Persian empire and its religion and traditions are larger than the region of "Iran" and emcompasses other regions such Afghansitan, Tadjikistan, Turkey and others. Therefore, I believe it will be more accurate to refrain from all mentions to "Iran" and keep the term "Persian" instead, ie: "Nowruz (Persian: نوروز [noːˈɾuːz]) is the Iranian or Persian New Year..." "It is a festival based on the Iranian Persian Solar Hijri calendar..." "The day of Nowruz has its origins in the Iranian Persian religion of Zoroastrianism and is thus rooted in the traditions of the Iranian Persian peoples;"

Overview "The first day of the Iranian Persian calendar falls..." "the first month of the Iranian Persian solar calendar, which is the official calendar in use in Iran, and formerly in Afghanistan."

Please review and correct all the mentions to "Iran" or "Iranian" to "Persian" and "Persian regions" in the article. 204.138.127.13 (talk) 13:00, 18 March 2024 (UTC)

The roots of the word Nowruz:

Now or No is the same word as new and just its pronunciation has been changed by the passage of time. Ruz is the same word as rise which its pronounciation has been changed in the same way. There are many words such as mother or brother which are in Iranian language just with different pronunciations. New Rise means new rise of the life in the spring ... 72.1.195.7 (talk) 18:29, 18 March 2024 (UTC)

Arab-muslim "conquest" vs. Turkic Mongolic "invaders"

I would expect a more neutral wording. Filanca (talk) 15:05, 19 March 2024 (UTC)

New year

@HistoryofIran:, you reverted my edit here and mentioned it contradicts the cited sources. Would you please explain what you mean by that? This was literally in the references I cited. Do you need more references? Or you need footnotes? Also, you added Might as well add every other ethnicity that celebrates it too. My edit was not about celebration. It was about new year. Iran has Nowruz in its calendar as new year, and so does the Kurdistan Government. They call it Kurdish new year [1]. Please help me understand.This is Wikipedia:Content removal, and not accepted in Wikipedia unless there is a reason. Thanks Pirehelo (talk) 21:41, 21 March 2024 (UTC)

you reverted my edit here and mentioned it contradicts the cited sources.

I mean, most of the article basically, particularly the sourced lede. This is about the Persian/Iranian New Year, which has influenced many countries leading them to celebrate it too, not the Kurdish one. The Kurdish one is here Newroz as celebrated by Kurds.

My edit was not about celebration. It was about new year.

Which is the same, you celebrate a new year after all, thats the point of it.

They call it Kurdish new year

So?

This is Wikipedia:Content removal, and not accepted in Wikipedia unless there is a reason.

This makes no sense, you just replied to my reasonings. If we’re gonna talk about violating rules, then you are currently doing that with WP:CONSENSUS. Ive reverted you again, please refrain from edit warring. HistoryofIran (talk) 22:01, 21 March 2024 (UTC)

First, These are your opinions. Please read Wikipedia:Verifiability. Wikipedia is not an opinion piece! You need references for these claims. If there are references falsifying my claims please let me know. If there are disagreeing references both should be included not the ones you like.

Second, If you are concerned about different spellings, the headline of the Guardian page I cited literally reads "Nowruz: Kurdish new year 2023 celebrations" not Newroz. The peer-reviewed article that I cited has Newroz/Nowruz in its keyword. It included both forms with a slash indicating they are interchangeable. The abstract reads Even though it marks the beginning of the Kurdish and the Persian new year.

Third, Of course celebration and new year are different things. Nowruz is celebrated in Albania and Turkey. Is it the beginning of Albanian and Turkish new year too?

Finally, this article is about Nowruz. It is not about Persian Nowruz. If you think that such article is necessary, please go ahead and create it.

So, I am still not clear about the reason for removing the content I added. Please enlighten me.

Thanks, Pirehelo (talk) 22:35, 21 March 2024 (UTC)

First, These are your opinions. Please read Wikipedia:Verifiability. Wikipedia is not an opinion piece! You need references for these claims. If there are references falsifying my claims please let me know. If there are disagreeing references both should be included not the ones you like.

I’m sorry, but this and the rest of your comment clearly demonstrate that you did not properly read what I wrote, and especially not the article... Please do that, and then adress that instead of randomly casting WP:ASPERSIONS. This is the second time you are accusing of something I did not do. If you want a constructive conversation, please do not make a third. HistoryofIran (talk) 22:54, 21 March 2024 (UTC)

@HistoryofIran: Please explain why you removed the content I added. Is Nowruz Kurdish New Year? It is a yes or no question. If it is, I see no reason why it should be removed from the article.

You removed the content I added - about Newroz being the Kurdish new year- with three reliable references. There are many more references for it. Either falsify my references or I am going to add it once again. Consensus is not a unilateral thing. This is a disagreement about content and should be resolved by references not your personal opinion. Pirehelo (talk) 23:13, 21 March 2024 (UTC)

should be resolved by references not your personal opinion.

Aaand the third accusation with no proof. You are clearly unable to engage in a constructive discussion. If I am wrong, please quote when I wrote my own opinion.

Please explain why you removed the content I added

I already did, read and reply [2], it's not rocket science. Instead, you are twisting part of my comment and adding your WP:ASPERSIONS onto it, while the other part you simply avoid and then continue with random questions - honestly, what gives you the right to ignore and twist what I am saying and then bringing random and irrelevant questions/remarks up? This is not how you do a discussion.

Either falsify my references

What does this even mean...

or I am going to add it once again. Consensus is not a unilateral thing. This is a disagreement about content and should be resolved by references not your personal opinion.

This is pretty ironic, and you now threatening to be disruptive. Honestly, I am tired of giving WP:GF to users who don't deserve it and ultimately end up getting blocked. Continue edit warring and I'll report you to WP:ANI for WP:EDITWARRING, WP:ASPERSIONS, WP:IDIDNTHEARTHAT and WP:STONEWALLING.

Also, read WP:RS. The Guardian nor the Iraqi Kurdish government is not part of that.. HistoryofIran (talk) 23:41, 21 March 2024 (UTC)

@HistoryofIran:, I am going to ignore the sarcasm and personal attacks and respond to your arguments

First, this article not about Nowruz as celebrated by Iranians and Persians. Nowruz does not belong to an ethnicity or nation and neither does Wikipedia. Wikipedia is not a soapbox or means of national promotion.

Second, if you are challenging the references, there are hundreds of peer reviewed articles calling Newroz the Kurdish new year. One of the sources I shared was peer reviewed. So are these [3], [4][5]. Also there is ample evidence from the past few centuries calling Nowruz the Kurdish or Kurdistani New Year like Mem and Zin epic from the 1690s calling Newroz New year and old Kurdistani traditon.

Third, what do you mean by what is falsification? If you don't know that, I am not sure how you engage in a scientific debate (unless your notion of science is radically different that of Popper!).

Finally, you do not have the agency to decide who is going to be blocked. Everyone is allowed to edit the articles.Pirehelo (talk) 00:04, 22 March 2024 (UTC)

I am going to ignore the sarcasm and personal attacks and respond to your arguments

I wasn't being sarcastic, and I certainly wasn't making personal attacks (which is rich coming from you).

First, this article not about Nowruz as celebrated by Iranians and Persians.

Except it is.. hence why we also have Newroz as celebrated by Kurds, which you are ignoring. In the article, the customs, history etc are all in relation to Iran, such as the Achaemenid, Parthian and Sasanian eras, which predate the existence of the Kurds [6].

Wikipedia is not a soapbox or means of national promotion.

Indeed, you should listen to it then.

Second, if you are challenging the references, there are hundreds of peer reviewed articles calling Newroz the Kurdish new year. One of the sources I shared was peer reviewed. So are these [3], [4][5]. Also there is ample evidence from the past few centuries calling Nowruz the Kurdish or Kurdistani New Year like Mem and Zin epic from the 1690s calling Newroz New year and old Kurdistani traditon.

Yes, because the Kurds celebrate it as their new year too. Still, does not make it right to add it in this article when it's about the Iranian/Persian Nowruz. Unless you mean to say that all these nations celebrate Nowruz due to the Newroz..etc

Third, what do you mean by what is falsification? If you don't know that, I am not sure how you engage in a scientific debate (unless your notion of science is radically different that of Popper!).

Actually, what you said made no sense. If this was an attempt at humor, then it was a poor one.

Finally, you do not have the agency to decide who is going to be blocked.

You're right. I don't - that's why I said I would take it to WP:ANI. HistoryofIran (talk) 01:01, 22 March 2024 (UTC)

Isn't Nowruz celebrated by Afghans and several other ethnic groups as their new year? Why not adding Baháʼí Naw-Rúz to the lead section? It is their new year too. Also, the celebration of Nowruz is important for several Turkic groups. So should we open a Pandora's box? Adding dozens of Nowruz's and XYZ New Year to the lead section?! This article is similar to Christmas. It should not be bloated by stuff I mentioned. The Kurdish Nowruz does have its own article. Can you prove Kurdish Newroz = Nowruz? e.g. do Central Asians celebrate Kurdish version? Or their version of Nowruz is based on the original Zoroastrian tradition, Solar Hijri calendar, and their own traditions? How many non-Kurdish groups use Kurdish calendar? Finally, per WP:WEIGHT and WP:COMMON, is Kurdish new year an accepted term for Nowruz? How many historians, academics, and scholars use it? Does Kurdish new year have the same weight as Persian new year in academic works and reliable sources? Obviously, the answer is No. Plus, I think we should remove that bold "Iranian" from the lead too. Google results show neither Iranian nor Kurdish new year is as common as Persian new year when you search about the term Nowruz. In the end, the lead could be a better summary of other Nowruz's. I mean it is OK to mention which specific ethnic groups, regions or countries celebrate Nowruz as their new year. --Mann Mann (talk) 02:03, 22 March 2024 (UTC)

@Mann Mann: If you have references suggesting that Nowruz is the new year for Afghans and other groups, please feel free to add it to the article. I don't see a reason why not. Many academics and historians have used the term Kurdish new year for Newroz. Some examples are given above.

@HistoryofIran:, this article is not about Nowruz for Persians, I will not stay silent for you or any other user to remove contents that have references. Nowruz belongs to many nations and this should be reflected in the article. Pirehelo (talk) 02:36, 22 March 2024 (UTC)

You completely missed Mann Mann's point, and ignored mine.. HistoryofIran (talk) 02:49, 22 March 2024 (UTC)

Mann Mann used the term opening the Pandora's box as if Nowroz is the new year for a million nations and adding them causes chaos. Nowruz is not Persian new year or Kurdish new year. Nowruz is Nowruz. It has been around for ages and celebrated by many groups, and this article shouldn't be about only one neither should it exclude one. If you add an ethnicity or nationality to the lead paragraph, we should add others too. WP:NPOV 101. Pirehelo (talk) 03:01, 22 March 2024 (UTC)

Not million, but clearly dozen, if you bothered to read the article as you've been given the chance several times (not to mention Mann Mann also came with examples...). And you are now changing your argument, earlier you insisted that Nowruz is Kurdish, but now Nowruz is Nowruz? Clearly not per the article and its cited WP:RS. Your comment clearly demonstrates that you have set your mind to this - but no one is going to add something just because you simply want it. It is you who is violating WP:NPOV here, and I'm still awaiting a response to the comment I made above Mann Mann's comment, whose comment you did not properly address either. HistoryofIran (talk) 03:14, 22 March 2024 (UTC)

Hallo, in the map it should be correctly noted that Afghanistan is a country where Nawroz is celebrated as New Year.

Hallo, it should be corrected in the map, that Afghanistan is a country where Nawroz is celebrated also as New Year 2001:1C03:491C:EB00:E001:BC02:5649:72E5 (talk) 17:56, 24 March 2024 (UTC)

Infobox images

Currently we have five images in infobox (excluding the map), and 4/5 images are from Iran. I think the images need to be diverse (representing different regions and celebrations); e.g. 2 images from West Asia, 1 image from Central Asia, and 2 images from another region or community. @HistoryofIran and LouisAragon: What do you think? --Mann Mann (talk) 03:07, 26 March 2024 (UTC)

What do you think about this slightly different proposal; 2 images from Iran (the current Persepolis and haft-sin), 1 from another area in West Asia, 1 from Central Asia and 1 from another place? HistoryofIran (talk) 13:13, 26 March 2024 (UTC)

Hmmm... If we keep two images from Iran (Persepolis and haft-sin), then what about the image of Kurdish girl with a torch? She is from Iran too and I think it's a good image. I suggest keeping haft-sin in infobox and moving Persepolis to the a relevant section in the body of article. As for West Asia, an image from Azerbaijan would be a good choice. For Central Asia, I added Kazakh tradition. For another place/community, it could be from South Asia, Europe, Russia, or America. It just needs to be a quality image. --Mann Mann (talk) 16:56, 26 March 2024 (UTC)

That sounds good too. HistoryofIran (talk) 17:49, 26 March 2024 (UTC)

I added some new images. Feel free to change them if they are not good enough. --Mann Mann (talk) 17:33, 27 March 2024 (UTC)

NOT Holi but Gudi Pawa, Songkran (Thailand), Thingyan

Though Holi signifies Spring Equinox ... its not New Year

- Hindu New Year (Not Entirety)

- Thai New Year (Songkran)

- Thingyan (Myanmar) 103.178.144.60 (talk) 08:19, 13 April 2024 (UTC)