Talk:Mirkwood

Removed: The great spider Shelob spawned many smaller spiders, whom Sauron introduced into Mirkwood.. Source for this please? I do not deny they and she may be related, but I personally believe both Shelob and the Mirkwood spiders are descendants of Ungoliante's breed in Ered Gorgoroth. — Jor 16:48, 19 Jan 2004 (UTC)

Found my own source. Re-introducing part of the phrase. — Jor 20:03, 19 Jan 2004 (UTC)

Woodmen?

Doesn't the Hobbit (and perhaps LOTR) mention woodmen living in the central portions of the forest? Presumably they're related to the Beornings. john k 18:40, 1 August 2007 (UTC)

I just recently reread the Hobbit again and I recall no reference to men in Mirkwood. There are men down the river, but none actually in the forest if I recall correctly. TheALittley (talk) 04:37, 8 June 2012 (UTC)

Notability

Added refs & links of notability.Tttom1 19:38, 11 November 2007 (UTC)

History - I think it should be mentioned somewhere of the mingling of the people here, Sindar coming from the ruin of Doriath, and Oropher (Thranduil's father) being taken as their Lord. It should also be noted from "The Disaster of The Gladden fields" They left the ancient home at Amon Lanc across the river from their kin in Lorien. And also that Oropher led their army into battle with the Last alliance. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 199.245.32.210 (talk) 17:42, 3 March 2009 (UTC)

I edited the page and the references are there as well. Is there any way to hide the references? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 199.245.32.210 (talk) 18:53, 20 May 2009 (UTC)

Quest for Lonely Mountain

Could someone either cite the reference justifying the claim that the "quest" in The Hobbit was to regain Erebor? I believe the quest was to be a burglary, *not* the removal of Smaug and reestablishment of the Dwarves there. This needs to be corrected if I am right.71.31.147.72 (talk) 06:24, 5 January 2012 (UTC)

You are confusing Bilbo's job with the storyline of the book. Bilbo was hired as a burglar, but that was just one role in the reclaiming of the lonely mountain. Doesn't really need a citation as it is simple plot detail (to most people who've read the book anyway). GimliDotNet (talk) 07:47, 5 January 2012 (UTC)

Agreed. The quest was definitely to take back the mountain from Smaug, as per Thorin's description at the beginning of The Hobbit. TheALittley (talk) 04:41, 8 June 2012 (UTC)

Geography

Over the past few weeks I have moved part of the existing article to a new section (Geography) and have expanded this to include descriptions of the size, shape, flora and fauna of the forest. In regards to size I think it's helpful to include, in addition to bare statistics (miles / km), comparisons to places in the modern world, but these must be relevant (West Germany for the reasons cited, and Britain because it was where Tolkien lived). 203.6.146.5 (talk) 00:30, 31 December 2013 (UTC)

Gandalf

The critic Jane Chance Nitzsche notes that the wizard Gandalf the Grey, who dies and is reborn transfigured, Christ-like, as Gandalf the White, leads the party in The Lord of the Rings safely through the perils of Mirkwood, the dark forest, using supernatural powers.

Er what? In The Hobbit, Gandalf leaves the party before they enter Mirkwood; in The Lord of the Rings, the party (as such) never approaches Mirkwood. —Tamfang (talk) 02:11, 6 February 2020 (UTC)

Of course you're right. Nitzsche has both events in the same paragraph (page 42) and they've ended up entwangled together here. I've removed her, she's not saying anything useful about the wood. Chiswick Chap (talk) 09:06, 6 February 2020 (UTC)

Comparisons with European countries

It is not necessary to the article to create and add comparisons with European countries: this is an article about a fantasy, and we should stay close to the reliably-cited sources. In general uncited materials of any kind are undesirable: worse when they are also both unnecessary and straying off-topic from the fantasy world into the real world. The estimated geographical details cited to the Tolkien Encyclopedia are sufficient. Chiswick Chap (talk) 11:29, 24 March 2020 (UTC)

Distances are quite important in The Lord of Rings, and so are they in the maps. So comparing them with known-world distances, as well as calculating surface areas, is useful, even these values are only approximated. DLXXXIII (talk) 11:39, 24 March 2020 (UTC)

Many thanks for joining the discussion. Whether that is so or not, distances were already in the article, and remain there, so that matter is both uncontroversial and not germane to the discussion. In my view those existing distances are quite sufficient for the sense; they are reliably cited, and they have been in the article a long time: no other editor has seen it as necessary to go beyond the cited source there. Chiswick Chap (talk) 11:47, 24 March 2020 (UTC)

Or nobody was interested enough by such a thing (in fact no, other people did this here), there's no way to know. A basic statement has to be sourced, OK for that, but it is not forbidden to reasonably extrapolate other information from the already existing one, especially when you explain why the values are approximated (I agree a very precise measure would make no sense) in this case - Mirkwood is roughly rectangular. So I'm not much convinced. DLXXXIII (talk) 11:57, 24 March 2020 (UTC)

None of that is the point. You are continuing to edit-war despite knowing there is no consensus for your actions. This is not acceptable. It would be appreciated if you could self-revert. Chiswick Chap (talk) 19:27, 24 March 2020 (UTC)

This is the point, on the contrary. As for "consensus", this is only between you and me, we just have divergent viewpoints, and you didn't convince me.

Accusing me of "disrupting Wikipedia" is not more acceptable either. Feel free to ask a third party so as to resolve this "edit-warring" (which is not, or at least was not, really one in my wiewpoint). This would be better. DLXXXIII (talk) 20:09, 24 March 2020 (UTC)

Consensus is not achieved in an hour or a couple of days, the information relating to the relative sizes of Mirkwood to real world geography should be cited. If it’s of interest, it will be in third party work. Geography of middle earth is a topic for scholarly debate and there are numerous works published on it (for example there is much discussion that the shire is equivalent to oxford). When you find one that does this comparison, then it can be added. Until then it is both WP:OR and WP:SYNTH Lava Lamps (talk) 10:15, 26 March 2020 (UTC)

@Lava Lamps: There have been other similar attempts nonetheless, see here or here for example. DLXXXIII (talk) 12:54, 26 March 2020 (UTC)

I've removed the comparisson from Mordor, that doesn't belong here either. Lava Lamps (talk) 12:59, 26 March 2020 (UTC)

Split

Why do we have one article for two subjects? They should be individual articles even if one is loosely based on or inspired by the other Lava Lamps (talk) 13:15, 26 March 2020 (UTC)

No two subjects: we have one concept of the great dark Northern European forest, described by at least 3 authors over the centuries. Whether there should be subsidiary articles is a different question, but given that not many reliable sources can be found for any of the 3, I'd say probably not, they wouldn't be separately notable. Chiswick Chap (talk) 14:54, 26 March 2020 (UTC)

"Marhwini" listed at Redirects for discussion

A discussion is taking place to address the redirect Marhwini. The discussion will occur at Wikipedia:Redirects for discussion/Log/2020 May 21#Marhwini until a consensus is reached, and readers of this page are welcome to contribute to the discussion. Hog Farm (talk) 22:41, 21 May 2020 (UTC)

Mirkwood in Hervarar saga

I am sorry, but I have to remove the map, which seems both OR and POV. Harvard professor Omeljan Pritsak (1981, p. 211) gives a convincing location in the Ukraine that seems more historically sound further to the east, which places the Goths west of it and the Huns east of it. Shippey is one of my favourite scholars, so it is not about Shippey, but as, I really can't read Shippey's description as supporting that of the map, I don't think I have much choice.--Berig (talk) 20:38, 8 March 2021 (UTC)

Moreover, too much space is given to Shippey here. Both Omeljan Pritsak (1981) and Christopher Tolkien (1960) give very much the same information as Shippey does.--Berig (talk) 20:49, 8 March 2021 (UTC)

PS, I cannot imagine a more relevant source for the location of Mirkwood in Hervarar saga than Omeljan Pritsak, an internationally respected Harvard professor who actually came from the location of the Goths and the Huns in the saga and knew both archaeology and autochtonous traditions in the area.--Berig (talk) 05:04, 9 March 2021 (UTC)

Well, I don't agree that a map cited to one of the theories available is OR or POV; it is simply stating that one scholar has one theory and this is what that theory looks like. We are completely at liberty to provide other maps for other theories, indeed it would be desirable to do so. But that is no reason whatsoever to remove the existing map, which is certainly relevant and directly and accurately represents the theory it describes. If there was imbalance, it seems you've already corrected that with your additions; our duty is to represent each theory accurately. Chiswick Chap (talk) 08:28, 9 March 2021 (UTC)

Does Shippey actually say that Mirkwood followed the eastern side of the Carpathians? I am not criticizing. I am just interested in the matter.--Berig (talk) 08:30, 9 March 2021 (UTC)

Also, does he place the Huns in Transylvania?--Berig (talk) 08:33, 9 March 2021 (UTC)

He says, as mapped, that Mirkwood would on his interpretation have lain between the Carpathians and the Dnieper, i.e. East of the Carpathians. There is no discussion of where it ended, i.e. whether it ran right up to the snow or was only down on the plains. But I have a question for you - why did Pritsak suggest Ukraine in particular? Was it just because the Dnieper is mentioned? I think we should give reasons for each interpretation. I've added a list of Norse texts, and a source that points out these may be talking about different places ... let's keep looking for sources. Chiswick Chap (talk) 09:06, 9 March 2021 (UTC)

He writes a lot about it, and the location in the Ukraine is perfectly standard and mainstream. Christopher Tolkien also places it in the region of Ukraine. It is also due to the fact that Jordanes placed the 4th c. Gothic kingdom Oium, there, and archaeologists place the 4th c. Gothic Chernyakhov culture there. I doubt it needs to be defended in the article.--Berig (talk) 09:21, 9 March 2021 (UTC)

yes. The position depends on date; in the 370s the Goths moved southwest into the Roman Empire, so what was true before then wasn't true afterwards. And since the Norse sagas don't specify the exact date there's plenty of uncertainty. I've added a mention of the migration, which goes a long way to explaining the different placements. Indeed there is no reason to suppose all the Norse texts are talking about the same Mirkwood. Chiswick Chap (talk) 09:41, 9 March 2021 (UTC)

Oh, they are definitely not all talking of the same Mirkwood. Also remember that Hlöðskvíða is not historical documentation. It is fragments of distant memories from the Goths in South-Eastern Europe that seem to have survived in southern Sweden among the Geats and later been transmitted to the Icelanders. It is a miracle in itself that place names are indentifiable with the Carpathians and the Dniepr and other places.--Berig (talk) 09:47, 9 March 2021 (UTC)

Well it seems we agree. I think the text is a bit clearer on the background now. Chiswick Chap (talk) 09:55, 9 March 2021 (UTC)

I am quite happy with the present version!--Berig (talk) 10:02, 9 March 2021 (UTC)

Map

Chiswick Chap, Could you remake the map and place Mirkwood in Northern Ukraine along the northern border of the steppe? That way the location would be sourced to a RS: Eggers, M. (2002). "Myrkviðr". In Beck, Heinrich (ed.). Reallexikon der germanischen Altertumskunde [Dictionary of Germanic Antiquity]. 20 (2 ed.). pp. 460–461. Otherwise I will make one.--Berig (talk) 15:26, 14 March 2021 (UTC)

I can select any mappable region, certainly. However, the sources mention the river and the mountains, and scholars including Shippey therefore place the forest between the two, which seems reasonable, to say the least. If Eggars wants to ignore that evidence for some reason, we ought to know why he's doing that, i.e. given the two boundaries known from the texts, why choose an unknown third one? I'm not against mapping his reasoning *as well* but it wouldn't be right to map it instead. Chiswick Chap (talk) 15:34, 14 March 2021 (UTC)

BTW I assume that's germanischen. Chiswick Chap (talk) 15:35, 14 March 2021 (UTC)

There is no contradiction really because the Black forest was west of the Dniepr also. Here are the locations: the "Black forest" stretched along both banks of the Dniepr from the river Oril' to the river Samara. The "Dark Blue Forest" stretched from the river Volča (called Vovcha on WP) to the river Samara. We have both Pritsak's "The Origin of Rus" and "Reallexikon der germanischen Altertumskunde" to base the location of Mirkwood on.--Berig (talk) 15:40, 14 March 2021 (UTC)

OK, I'll do a bit more cartography. Chiswick Chap (talk) 16:36, 14 March 2021 (UTC)

Great! And we won't need any question marks since the locations can be referenced to RS. :-).--Berig (talk) 16:44, 14 March 2021 (UTC)

It's not obvious why the texts should have mentioned the Carpathians, however, if the forest was relatively small and straddled or was East of the Dnieper. Chiswick Chap (talk) 19:56, 15 March 2021 (UTC)

You will probably think I am a pain now. There are a few things on my wishlist: 1) Could you zoom out and make the map larger 2) remove the arrow under Goths. 3) have the Huns more to the east 3) add Arheimar that corresponds to the historic Gothic capital near Kamianka-Dniprovska. See this:

Some scholars, among them Vigfússon and Heinzel, tried to connect this area of the Dnieper with Kiev. But that supposition must be abandoned, because Kiev did not become a leader until the tenth century. Its predecessor in that role was another city located in the southern Ukraine and therefore closer to the Greek colonies and the cultural sphere of Mare Nostrum. Beginning in the fifth century B.C., the city was the political, economic, industrial, and commercial center of the Scythians. Its ruins comprising Kamъjans'ke Horodyšče on the left bank of the lower Dnieper, opposite present-day Nikopol', were unearthed (in 1889-1900; 1938-1941; 1944-1950) between the village of Velyka Znamъjanka and the town of Kamъjanka Dniprov'ska (Oblast'/province of Zaporižžja)

[indent and new paragraph] The connection of Kamъjans'ke Horodyšče with Árheimar is confirmed by the archaeological finds of settlements and necropolises of the Černjaxovo culture, which unbiassed scholars have attributed to the Goths of the fourth and fifth centuries. p. 210

I hope I am not too annoying.--Berig (talk) 20:18, 15 March 2021 (UTC)

Only slightly! But on the Goths' arrow, they certainly retreated south-westwards, indeed much further, right into the Roman Empire. Chiswick Chap (talk) 20:22, 15 March 2021 (UTC)

Oh, I see. I am thinking of their location when the events start in Hlödskvida (battle of the Goths and Huns).--Berig (talk) 20:25, 15 March 2021 (UTC)

If you look at this map of the Gothic realm (the archaeological remains), you will see that it agrees quite well with your map.--Berig (talk) 20:29, 15 March 2021 (UTC)

Hatnote

@Chiswick Chap: The hatnote to Mirkwood (band) qualifies WP:HAT. read WP:RELATED again. The band has nothing to do with this article aside from sharing the same title, which is precisely why a hatnote is appropriate in this cirumstance. Mirkwood and Mirkwood (band) are not related topics. e.g. Extraterrestrial life and Extraterrestrials in fiction are. Οἶδα (talk) 07:52, 8 June 2021 (UTC)

Far from it. The band selected their name to reflect the tenor and style that they wished to portray with their music, apparel, and performances, and the band is correctly described and cited in the article as an instance of the influence of the Mirkwood concept. Chiswick Chap (talk) 07:55, 8 June 2021 (UTC)

Being influenced by this subject does not make it a related topic. They are not connected to this subject. Clearly we are not going to agree on this so we need an outside comment. Οἶδα (talk) 20:45, 8 June 2021 (UTC)

Well, leaving that aside for a moment, perhaps you can at least agree that since the band is discussed, linked, and cited in the article, a hatnote is at best redundant to the article, in the sense that explanation and navigation are already provided so they don't need to be provided again. Chiswick Chap (talk) 07:31, 9 June 2021 (UTC)

Three Hearts and Three Lions

Mirkwood is also mentioned in Poul Anderson's abovementioned novel. Jack Upland (talk) 03:28, 18 September 2022 (UTC)

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