Talk:List of breakfast drinks

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Inclusion criteria

For crying out loud. @Andrew Davidson, FeydHuxtable, and Northamerica1000:, in !voting to keep this article, what do you see as the inclusion criteria? Do we include literally any liquid that sources say people have had for breakfast, or that which reliable sources call "breakfast drinks". I cannot imagine you had in mind the first, given our most basic guidelines for lists, but the AfD isn't clear. DexterPointy has repeatedly added urine to the list following the AfD, the most recent time with a glut of mostly terrible sources, none of which call it a "breakfast drink," which do talk about people having it in the morning, with/before breakfast, etc. I imagine we can find crappy-to-borderline-acceptable sources saying there are people who have just about every beverage around breakfast time. To be clear, I'm not trying to relitigate the AfD; I'd like to know what you intend re: the inclusion criteria. — Rhododendrites ^talk \\ 21:19, 18 July 2018 (UTC)

• No comment yet about the urine entry, as I have not looked into it yet. Regarding the article, it is surprising how difficult it is to find reliable sources that verify beverages as specific common breakfast drinks. The article is based upon what reliable sources state. North America¹⁰⁰⁰ 21:21, 18 July 2018 (UTC)

Thanks for the ping Rhododendrites. I find the whole concept too icky to evaluate the sources I'm afraid. Even if sources support the liquid being drunk at breakfast we don't have to include it if it's against the consensus of editorial judgment. I'm strongly against including it myself - I feel it risks making some of our more sensitive readers less inclined to enjoy the otherwise excellent article. It's a matter of opinion, but I would say that WP:astonish supports us removing the entry.

That said, on the AfD Dexter made an innovative argument in support of the most unusual drinks being the most noteable. It might have took them a while to find those sources. Possibly they sincerely think they are improving the encyclopaedia with their addition, and deleting their work might de-motivate them. We could remove later, for now I’ve just moved the liquid to the bottom, it should at least be a little less shocking for our readers if it's not the lead entry. (I have no objection if others want to immediately remove, of course.)FeydHuxtable (talk) 21:58, 18 July 2018 (UTC)

• Oooh, now we're talking. Indeed, the AfD was a bit of a mockery regarding inclusion criteria.
  Incidentally, what you (Rhododendrites) seem to suspect being trolling, isn't classic trolling, but rather: It's in the alley of "reductio ad absurdum", exactly to make the point of the untenable criteria (or complete lack of any sensible criterion; ref. also what I wrote in the AfD). Actually, with the current "definitions" (as is found in the article), it could even be taken a step further by interpreting a "breakfast drink" to be a drink which constitutes breakfast, in which case I can prove that Budweiser can serve as a breakfast drink (yeah, Budweiser as the breakfast itself, the guy says: "this is breakfast"); But I'm not going there, I think (hope) I've proved my point.
  Regarding (Northamerica1000): "it is surprising how difficult it is to find reliable sources that verify beverages as specific common breakfast drinks.".
  Sorry, but I'd say it's unsurprising. What does it take for something to be "common"? How about local "common"? Where could such data possible be found? (if you're lucky and find some reliable local sales figure on e.g. orange juice, then those will at very best only tell you about when it was sold).
  Objectively speaking, I think it's a pipe dream to hope for the creation of great definition of "common" for "breakfast drinks", and even more of a pipe dream to hope to get data, which the definition can be applied to (hence actually making a good list).
  BTW: The urine thing. As disgusting as it may be, it's real. It might even be more common than drinking Bloddy Mary at breakfast.
  -- DexterPointy (talk) 23:01, 18 July 2018 (UTC)

---

Note: Roughly 6 hours after I wrote the above here, Rhododendrites Dorsetonian chose to avoid addressing the article here (the urine entry in particular), and instead opted to target me, by using my Talk page, instead of here (the article's talk page), where this discussion existed.
I here provide a few quotes from the sources which Rhododendrites Dorsetonian deny correct mentioning urine drinking at breakfast:

• from http://www.urine-therapy.org/urine-therapy-news/your-questions
  "This morning I drank my urine as usual. After breakfast I spent a couple of hours giving myself a thorough massage with warm sesame oil. "
• from https://www.readingpokertells.com/2014/03/drinking-your-own-urine-and-playing-poker/
  "The fourth day out I got up nice and early, and made a big bacon, eggs, and toast breakfast accompanied by a juice glass filled with 3 ounces of my own “pure water” (as the Sanskrit text the Damar Tantra refers to it)."
• from http://skepdic.com/urine.html
  "Urine is not quite the breakfast of champions, but it is the elixir of choice of a number of holy men in India where drinking urine has been practiced for thousands of years."

To be fair to Rhododendrites Dorsetonian, then he actually disapproved the sourcing, deleting the entry from the article, wrapping it up by saying: "In any case, these references talk predominantly about drinking urine before breakfast, after breakfast or to accompany breakfast - phrases which which indicate that it is not actually breakfast."
This, by logic, means that he should have added Budweiser, and have deleted all entries which accompany breakfast (i.e. tea, coffee, ... - all clearly not drinks being breakfast in themselves).
Well, I can't make blind people see, I can't turn evil people into saints, I can't make irrational people be rational, I can't .... - The only thing I can do, is to consider if I should leave Wikipedia, or fight it (and WP:ANI is probably not the route).
Anyway, I will certainly no longer try help this list go anywhere (I personally don't give a flying fuck about what it contains, and nobody actually needs it for anything remotely important, so ... ).
Bye -- DexterPointy (talk)

@DexterPointy: What are you even talking about. Are you confusing Dorsetonian with me? The last thing I said on your talk page was before opening this section, and it was he/she who removed it from the article. You have already admitted to disrupting Wikipedia to prove a point. You have not helped this list go anywhere; you've tried to delete it, edit warred to add urine to it to prove a point, added a bunch of lousy sources to continue proving that point, and now seem to just be stirring things up for no reason. I tend to agree with your point about inclusion criteria, but you're being destructive to force other people to be constructive instead of being constructive yourself. The right way would've been to just open this section to talk about the inclusion criteria with urine as a hypothetical (doing something similar at AfD is not the same thing, as that's not where specific content issues are resolved). — Rhododendrites ^talk \\ 13:26, 19 July 2018 (UTC)

Oh crap, I made an oversight there: It was Rhododendrites who made the first revert, but Dorsetonian who made the second revert.
Sorry about that, and I've now corrected the above to reflect that it was Dorsetonian, not Rhododendrites.
Note: This difference & correction, doesn't change my decision on leaving this list. -- DexterPointy (talk) 14:06, 19 July 2018 (UTC)

I think this article really needs a better lead to justify its inclusion. At the moment, it's kind of stating the obvious. "Here is a list of drinks, a drink being a liquid, that people consume at breakfast, being the first meal of the day". What we could do with is sources that explain why people consume certain drinks for breakfast and what its history is. For example, this book quotes T.W. White talking to Edgar Allan Poe about "no man is safe who drinks before breakfast! No man can do so, and attend to business properly!" which could tie in (with another source) why all these drinks are non-alcoholic, for example. Ritchie333 ^{(talk) (cont)} 13:04, 19 July 2018 (UTC)

You guys might be interested to know that I have re-opened the normination for this page based on the fact that it's scope is way too wide. See Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/List of breakfast drinks (2nd nomination) --Tyw7  (🗣️ Talk • ✍️ Contributions) Please ping me if you had replied 23:28, 23 July 2018 (UTC)

A solution?

Maybe we should change the title to Breakfast drink and create multiple separate, embedded lists for "historical"/"contemporary" breakfast drinks or breakfast drinks in different regions. The inclusion of "beer" in the list given what we can actually say about beer based on the cited source is extremely questionable, and I'm reluctant to trust a source about curry that specifically says "You know, in India lassi is a breakfast drink and not something specifically drunk with curry", since in that context it might not mean that it is actually a common breakfast drink but rather that it is not a common drink consumed with other meals, if you get my meaning.

If this article is not deleted (and I'm increasingly of a mind that it perhaps should be, although I may be biased by some of the user conduct on display in the AFD), this might be the best solution.

Hijiri 88 (聖やや) 00:22, 25 July 2018 (UTC)

Article updated and revamped

To address the concerns on this talk page, I have significantly revised the article, going through all of the sources, adding sources, copy editing, etc., to ensure that the article's scope is based upon common breakfast beverages. The article has been reduced to being focused upon being an informational source about said common breakfast beverages. Per this, general content (e.g. non-breakfast information) about various beverages have been removed for entries that have their own articles. North America¹⁰⁰⁰ 01:16, 5 August 2018 (UTC)

I find it rather amazing to immediately spot Champagne, which was mentioned in the 1'st AfD as being "not typical" (i.e. not common).
I also find it rather amazing to look at sources, yet immediately encounter the very 1'st source being eater.com::"6 Hot Breakfast Drinks From Around The World" (eater.com seems to be a run-of-the-mill "lifestyle" website).
The article's lead now versus the lead before (timestamp 20180804T1127Z), isn't really an improvement (the major problem, per past AfDs & Talk, still being lack of addressing thresholds for when something is "common" enough to be entered onto the list, and regional scope addressing, and ...).
@Dorsetonian: Can we agree that it's a bit premature for Northamerica1000 to have removed all article issues warnings? -- DexterPointy (talk) 11:25, 5 August 2018 (UTC)

• Why are you selectively only pinging one person, rather than everybody who has recently contributed to the talk page or article? North America¹⁰⁰⁰ 11:35, 5 August 2018 (UTC)

• I consider Eater (website) to be a relatively reliable source. It is a food and dining network of sites and brand of Vox Media. Its parent company, Vox Media, is an American digital media company. North America¹⁰⁰⁰ 11:37, 5 August 2018 (UTC)

• Upon consideration, I have removed the Champagne entry from the article. I researched this earlier today, and it is consumed for breakfast, but it's unclear if it historically was or is a common breakfast drink. North America¹⁰⁰⁰ 11:41, 5 August 2018 (UTC)

• I've added a bit more to the lead. It's pretty simple: the article is about common breakfast drinks in various cultures and societies. North America¹⁰⁰⁰ 11:45, 5 August 2018 (UTC)

@DexterPointy: No, we cannot agree that removing the tags was premature. I think Northamerica1000 has done sterling work in improving the article and in finding a way through the various (and often opposing) opinions that have been given. Do remember that many opinions were offered and no consensus was reached. Dorsetonian (talk) 12:12, 5 August 2018 (UTC)

Not persuasive, but I'll leave this molehill. -- DexterPointy (talk) 13:09, 5 August 2018 (UTC)

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