Talk:Khalkha Mongols

Stub

This is just a stub.

True, but a lot of great articles started out this way. Improve it if you can, if not, move on. Thanks for your help. Best, [[User:Meelar|Meelar (talk)]] 03:25, 7 Jul 2004 (UTC)

I removed the following sentence:

The Khalkha are known chiefly for being the ethnicity from which Genghis Khan (Temujin) and his family originated.

This is wrong. There was no group known as the Khalkha during Chinggis's reign. --Nanshu 03:06, 1 Sep 2004 (UTC)

Khalkha people is from Manchu nation and Qing emperors were their king. Crimean1900 (talk) 15:47, 21 January 2016 (UTC)

Your bold vandalism-ish edit has been reverted. Please don't continue before a consensus is reached. There is no doubt that Khalkha Mongols are a group of Mongol people which form the majority of modern Mongolian country, not that they are a group of Manchu people (no one have heared that Mongolia is a Manchu country). Your edit clearly needs consensus. --Cartakes (talk) 15:53, 21 January 2016 (UTC)

Unfortunately, it is confirmed that khalkhas are manchu people. http://tsenddoo.niitlelch.mn/content/5376.shtml http://munkhochir.blogspot.com/2007/07/v_01.html Hope, you can understand mongolian language. The leading Mongolian historic Baabar proved that Khalkhas came from Manchuria (Manchu country) after Yuan dynasty broke up. If you have any resource that they are mongols, please provide. Crimean1900 (talk) 18:35, 21 January 2016 (UTC)

I would like to say that the English language is highly preferred in English Wikipedia, and also blogs are not reliable sources in Wikipedia. It is easy to find reliable sources saying that Khalkha are Mongols. For example, the book "Mongolia" by Guek-Cheng Pang", p137 says "Ethnic groups: Mongol (mostly Khalkha) 94.9 percent, Turkic (mostly Kazakh) 5% percent...". The book "Colloquial Mongolian: The Complete Course for Beginners" by Jantsangiyn Bat-Ireedui and Alan J K Sanders (p1) also says "Khalkha Mongol, named after Mongolia's largest ethnic group and the country's official language, is also spoken in parts of Inner Mongolia and China's north-eastern provinces..." Encyclopædia Britannica [1] also mentions that "Khalkha, largest group of the Mongol peoples, constituting more than 80 percent of the population of Mongolia..." --Cartakes (talk) 18:53, 21 January 2016 (UTC)

I am agree that English should be preferred in English Wikipedia. Unfortunately, this information resources are available only in Mongolian language. Regarding sources, I read the books and research in Mongolian and the blogs are the opinion who has read these materials. It is sad that the publication of real situations or truths is not available in Wikipedia. I think, this is the main reason that makes Wikipedia is not so great.

I hope, there will be plenty translation of these books or researches and you will correct this page in one day. Good luck! Crimean1900 (talk) 04:51, 22 January 2016 (UTC)

Origin of Name

The central highlands around and south of Ulaanbaatar (roughly the territory of the Töv, Överkhangay, and Dundgovi Aymags) are often called "middle Khalkha". On the other hand, there is the river "Khalkhyn Gol" in the far east, which Britannica 11th ed. considers the origin of the name. Is there another river of the same name in the center? --Latebird 10:22, 5 July 2006 (UTC)

Found some info, also on the meaning of the word, and added the basic facts. I'm not going to decide whether the river resp. the region got their names before or after the people though, just stating that the names have the same root. The title Kalkas, previously presenting outadated Britannica information, is now a redirect here. --Latebird 12:54, 12 July 2006 (UTC)

I dissolved the Origin section because it overlaps with the History section. Instead, we need some basic facts including their population, geographic distribution and notable characteristics.

As for the origin of the name, I wonder where Latebird got the info. The "shield" theory looks to me like a folk etymology. --Nanshu 01:45, 17 July 2006 (UTC)

"They preserved their independence until they had to seek help from the Kangxi Emperor of the Manchu Qing Dynasty against the Dzungar leader Galdan in 1688." This sentence seems to perpetuate that if they were conquered by the Dzungar MONGOLS they would not be independent this is largely ignoring that the Khalkha became subjects of the Manchu. Dzuungar Oirats are MONGOLS, the war was a civil war by those wanting to remain under subjugation with little power (Khalkha Noyons/Nobles) and Dzungar who wanted an a total independent Mongol state for mongols. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 137.186.149.22 (talk) 00:46, 3 February 2008 (UTC)

I would like to contribute to this discussion, as this word might be of same ethymological root with the Turkish word "halk" meaning "people" or "masses". —Preceding unsigned comment added by 213.139.199.4 (talk) 07:27, 2 July 2008 (UTC)

That sounds like original research. Do you have any reliable published sources that postulate such a common root? --Latebird (talk) 08:30, 2 July 2008 (UTC)

This user 213.139.199.4 has addressed an interesting point. The Turkic word "Halyk" or "Халык" (Kz: people) really makes any Mongolian speaker astonished by its similarity to the name of Khalkha (the difference in the methods of Latinisation isn't much important). Nevertheless it will require a reliable published sources of the origin of this Turkic word. Guess it should be easy for those who are knowledgeable in Turkic languages to find out. Gantuya eng (talk) 09:47, 17 December 2008 (UTC)

In Mongolian "khalkha" means "shield". Also it used to mean "cheek" in ancient Mongolian. I think the etymology of the name Khalkha was extensively discussed in Д. Гонгор's "Халх товчоон" 1970/1978. Khalkha as a geographic entity was the centre of the Mongol possessions and therefore the safest place for the Mongols to live. (perhaps those in the southern domains were more exposed and vulnerable to the Ming invasions while those in the Western domains were vulnerable to the raids from Mogulistan and other Turkic states). Gantuya eng (talk) 09:57, 17 December 2008 (UTC)

They (scholars) sometimes seek support for this logic from the verses of the Praise of the Six Tumens of Dayan Khaan (Даян хааны зургаан түмний магтаал) found in Шар Тууж written in the 15th (?) century.

Хангай ханд сууж

Харин ирэхийн харуул болсон

Халуун аминд түшиг болсон

Халх түмэн

I wondered about the meaning of this verse for long. Being far away from home Mongolia, the 2nd line began meaning to me "Khalkha always waits for you to return". However, the 3rd line may support the meaning of "shield" or "protection" if it is understood in connection with the 4th line. The entire meaning may sound like "you find home and safety here". In this case, it should have been the name of the region first and later became the name of the population. Gantuya eng (talk) 14:34, 9 December 2009 (UTC)

Can you verify this from Д. Гонгор's book and can we consider him authoritative? Which region would that be then? A while ago, the mentioning of "Middle Khalkha" was removed from the article. Does that have anything to do with it?

So far, I see at least three competing theories:

• from Khalkhyn Gol
• from khalkhlakh = to protect, Khalkha = Shield
• from a geographic region (which?)

It would be nice if we could finally solve this. --Latebird (talk) 20:23, 13 December 2009 (UTC)

I aggree with Turkic root of Khalka. In Kutadgu Bilig there is a line "Yula erdi halkka karaŋku tüni" which means "He was a torch for the people in that night." Halkka measn to the people in the phrase with a dative case -a. In modern Turkish there is common word "halk" which means people and pronunciation is the same with Khalk. So the nominative case here is halk which is probably the origin of Khalka. Sources in Turkish: http://www.nisanyansozluk.com/?k=halk1&lnk=1 http://gokturkanitlari.appspot.com/kb/ii.html

 — Preceding unsigned comment added by 78.185.142.12 (talk) 14:16, 9 October 2015 (UTC) 

National language?

If I understand this correctly, there is SOME difference between the language of the Khalkha and the official language of Mongolia. If so, was the official language of Mongolia created for communication between the different ethnic groups of Mongolia the way Bahasa Indonesia was created for commmunication between the different ethnic groups of Indonesia? Gringo300 07:48, 12 February 2007 (UTC)

No, there isn't. Besides, this article isn't about the language. --Latebird 08:31, 12 February 2007 (UTC)

Unclear content

"The Seven Khalkha expanded into central Mongolia by absorbing the Uriankhai, who rebelled after Dayan Khan's death." "Expanding into Central Mongolia" and "absoribing the Uriankhai" -- these two activities are difficult to connect. What is meant by "Central Mongolia" in the context of the 15th-16th centuries and which Urianhkhai is mentioned here? Where did these Urianhkhai inhabit? Can these two concepts be shown on a map? Gantuya eng (talk) 09:35, 17 December 2008 (UTC)

This sentence, under the "History" section, is also unclear: "Batmunkh Dayan Khaan created Khalkh Tumen (10000) out of Mongols residing in the territory of current day central Mongolia..." What does the parenthetical 10000 mean in "Khalkh Tumen (10000)?" Marcipangris (talk) 14:15, 31 March 2010 (UTC)

Tumen means 10000. The meaning of this word underwent evolution following the political development of Mongolia. First it meant the largest military unit consisting of 10000 warriors. The commanders of such military units were given fiefs. When the fiefs became semi-independent "states", the word "tumen" began to refer to such semi-independent feudal domains. One of those domains was Khalha which occupied the territory of present day Mongolia. Gantuya eng (talk) 14:59, 31 March 2010 (UTC)

Thanks for clearing that up! Marcipangris (talk) 03:05, 13 May 2010 (UTC)

title

The correct title of this article should be Khalkha Mongols, not Khalka Mongols as currently is. If some administrator sees this, hope can move it to the correct title. Thanks! --Chinyin (talk) 15:58, 27 April 2012 (UTC)

Requested move

The following discussion is an archived discussion of the proposal. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the proposal was moved. --BDD (talk) 18:17, 15 July 2013 (UTC)

Khalka Mongols → Khalkha Mongols – Khalkha is the term used throughout the article. Khalkha Mongols currently redirects here chinneeb-talk 10:28, 7 July 2013 (UTC)

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the proposal. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

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