Talk:Jack Straw

General Tone

As with many political pages, this one has issues with the tone employed throughout. Pages on any topic where the writer is likely to be employed by, or a fan and follower of the subject can veer towards making them the everyman protagonist in a drama! Instead it's supposed to be factual and neutral. I'll amend the expenses paragraph for this reason. The content regarding Craig Murray; allegations of complicity in torture (about which there's much to include), and his election activity, to be completely frank, certainly reads as if it was written by an aide - apologies if this isn't the case, but I'm sure people would agree that the tone is inappropriate. If you have any suggested amendments, or think I've made it too dryly factual, then feel free to let me know. Marty jar (talk) 18:33, 16 June 2012 (UTC)

As I noted above, the pages of politicians have a reputation of being marketing tools, making them sound like a stereotypical action-hero-cum-everyman, like Vladimir Putin with charisma. In this example there's a great deal which doesn't meet Wiki's requirements of neutrality. A section I removed some months ago has returned a couple of times now - a sentence explaining that Straw (the high profile politician) is known to campaign vigorously around election times(!) If somebody can make a case for that now having been added to the article at least three times, then feel free to put forward the argument to the contrary.Marty jar (talk) 21:20, 7 September 2012 (UTC)

He's NOT a Christian

He can't be a Christian if his Mother's Mother was Jewish! If he was born to a Jewish Mother, then he IS Jewish! — Preceding unsigned comment added by 120.149.118.242 (talk) 07:11, 30 November 2012 (UTC)

Only in terms of ethnicity. In religious terms, he can be whatever he wants to be. Zacwill16 (talk)

You haven't read his autobiography in which he states he has been confirmed in the Church of England. He IS a Christian. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 94.175.232.164 (talk) 12:16, 27 August 2013 (UTC)

Jack Straw is not of Jewish ancestry. See this write-up of his ancestry. All Hallow's Wraith (talk) 06:07, 23 February 2015 (UTC)

Royal Statistical Society.

I beleive that he is a Fellow of the Royal Statistical Society but I could find no mention of this in the article. Can this be added as I think it is a high achievement and an important qualification. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 90.208.247.57 (talk) 17:09, 25 May 2013 (UTC)

If you can find some sort of source - something online that's half reliable for example - then please either add the link to the source here or add to the article with the source. We can always sort out any formatting for the source afterwards. Blue Square Thing (talk) 18:39, 25 May 2013 (UTC)

I’ve looked into this further and it seems that being a Fellow of the RSS is not a professional qualification (this is covered by being a chartered statistician) and so it is not actually such a high achievement. Furthermore I have checked the List of Fellows of the Royal Society 1660 – 2007 and could not find his name. This web site: [1] does however state his membership. I do not have any direct evidence of his status as a fellow, but a look on the web does show he has a keen interest in statistics and I think this needs to be mentioned in the article.90.208.247.57 (talk) 10:30, 27 May 2013 (UTC)

Standards committee report

The detailed report by the standard committee should NOT go in the wp:Lede. This is important but the correct procedure is to put a brief summary in the lead and the rest in a more detailed section later. I've made 2 attempts to do this & both have been overwritten. JRPG (talk) 19:57, 18 September 2015 (UTC)

Official Government report "The Jay report" / Rotherham

The Jay Report is an independent report produced by the government and the edits cover the period from 1997 to 2001 when Jack Straw was the Home Office Minister. It refers to a tragedy that happened in Rotherham, and a cover-up that could be one of the defining issues of Jack Straws leadership. The fact that so little was done about it makes it all the more important.

Your comment : irrelevant content

To address your comment that the abuse of over 1400 children in Britain in this modern age is irrelevant to the Home Secretary is hard for me to appreciate. Could you please explain why this is not relevant to the Home Secretary at that time. I look forward to your explanation. Thank you. People1750 (talk) 1 January 2016 (UTC)

Quite simply, although the Jay Report makes frequent references to the Home Office, it does not appear to mention the Home Secretary, either by name or by title. . . Mean as custard (talk) 15:07, 1 January 2016 (UTC)

Legally the Home Secretary is in charge of and responsible for the Home Office. Therefore everything the Home Office does or does not do is the responsibility of Jack Straw. There has to be accountability in organisations. There is no question that Jack Straws was in charge of the home office at the time of the debacle. Please see the Government website link : http://www.parliament.uk/biographies/commons/jack-straw/463.

There must be consistency in the inclusion of information in the encyclopaedic entry : Jack Straw did not personally bring in the Regulation of Investigatory Powers Act 2000, the Home Office lawyers did this. But because he was in charge of the organisation when this happened he correctly gets the credit and the entry is made in his encyclopaedic entry. The application of what information to include must be consistent across Wikipedia - good or bad news.

Just as a side note the comments did not say he did anything illegal. It just states what occurred under his leadership. People1750 (talk) 1 January 2016 (UTC)

A good and clear example would be the Captain of a ship. When the Titanic hit the iceberg it was not the Captains fault the ship hit the iceberg but it is an important and relevant part of the Captain’s history. An encyclopaedic account of the Captain’s career without mention of the sinking of the Titanic would be incomplete. People1750 (talk) 1 January 2016 (UTC)

People1750, please don't delete other people's posts and please sign your own. Mean as custard & I are both experienced & familiar with the agreed rules for editing Wikipedia consistently. All you need do is find a wp:Suggested sources#Current news which mentions his name in connection with the Jay report etc & subject to wp:undue, your contribution showing the connection will be welcomed. JRPG (talk) 17:51, 1 January 2016 (UTC)

Thank you for the comments. Apologies, it was an accidental delete as I did not realise I had deleted anything.People1750 (talk) 18:07, 1 January 2016 (UTC)

User: Mean as custard. The following articles link Jack Straw to the Rotherham debacle:

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/crime/11392781/Rotherham-abuse-didnt-happen-because-of-political-correctness.-It-happened-because-of-racism.html http://www.nationalreview.com/article/387428/1400-english-girls-raped-multiculturalism-dennis-prager http://www.theguardian.com/world/2011/jan/08/jack-straw-white-girls-easy-meat http://tamesidecitizen.blogspot.fr/2012/09/muslim-community-in-denial-about.html http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/rotherham-child-sex-abuse-scandal-labour-home-office-to-be-probed-over-what-tony-blairs-government-9701861.html Quote "The Independent on Sunday can reveal that a House of Commons committee is to investigate what Tony Blair's Home Office knew about the Rotherham scandal as far back as 2001 after more evidence emerged about his government's efforts to pacify Muslim communities."

Although these articles associate Mr Straw with the issue, in my view they does not link his responsibilty to events at that time. It looks like we will get more of a picture in the future! Under wp:undue necessary assumptions can be made, in this case the assumption is that events were relevant to Mr Straws position as Home Office Minister. (talk)

Proposed Text :

During Straw's tenure as Home Secretary, between 1997 to 2001,[citiation : http://www.parliament.uk/biographies/commons/jack-straw/463] the Rotherham sexual abuse scandal continued, where Asians, originally from Pakistan, targeted and abused over 1400 white children as young as 12 years old. According to the official Government report "The Jay report" quote "there were examples of children who had been doused in petrol and threatened with being set alight, threatened with guns, made to witness brutally violent rapes and threatened they would be next if they told anyone." The only action taken by the Home Office at that time was to send draft guidance on ‘child sexual exploitation’ to Social Services and the Area Child Protection Committee (ACPC).

The text is in two sections with two citations. The parliamentary website showing his position as Home Secretary - validating this fact. And then the text from Prof. Jay in her report - validated again with the citation. Each section validated independently and accurately. I have not stated any causeation or direct association between the two facts. I have covered all the issues under wp:undue, I am not adding anything that has not already been said by another report. The sources used are objective in their own right (Prof. Jays report/parlimentary website). With this evidence can we reach a consensus to repost ? Thank you. User talk:People1750

User talk:People1750 The Rotherham.pdf is much too long for most people to read but can be an external link. You don't need to cite Straw's tenure, particularly as you only have a few lines under each heading. A summary from the newspaper articles suffices and you need to avoid wp:SYNTH. Its important to wp:ATTRIBUTEPOV i.e. the Telegraph says etc. The Telegraph is not noted for its sympathy. towards Straw but it does include as part of its code of conduct a "right of reply" which a balanced article should also have. If you write in this style no one should delete your edit.

Regards JRPG (talk) 23:57, 1 January 2016 (UTC)

User:JRPG Rehash of Paragraph :

Action taken : 1. The Rotherham.pdf is much too long for most people to read but can be an external link. AGREED. 2. You don't need to cite Straw's tenure, particularly as you only have a few lines under each heading. DONE. TEXT REMOVED. 3. wp:SYNTH : AGREED : I have not added any additional meaning, only increased clarity. Could take out the reference to Jack Straw and only quote the Jay report ? 4. wp:ATTRIBUTEPOV AGREED : I have quoted directly from the text on areas I think could be misinterpreted or are controversial. 5. Final note : I'll save it in two edits separating out the Jay report from the telegraph quote. Therefore any objections of one or other part can be addressed separately.

According to Professor Jays Official Goverment report the Rotherham sexual abuse scandal continued during the time Jack Straw was running the Home Office. Asians, originally from Pakistan, targeted and abused over 1400 white children as young as 12 years old. According to "The Jay report" quote "there were examples of children who had been doused in petrol and threatened with being set alight, threatened with guns, made to witness brutally violent rapes and threatened they would be next if they told anyone." The only action taken by the Home Office at that time was to send draft guidance on ‘child sexual exploitation’ to Social Services and the Area Child Protection Committee (ACPC).[1]

According to the telegraph Jack Straw had highlighted the problem four years prior to the report being published, Jack Straw quote “ there was a "specific problem" in some areas of the country where Pakistani men "target vulnerable young white girls". White girls were, he said, viewed as “easy meat”."

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/crime/11392781/Rotherham-abuse-didnt-happen-because-of-political-correctness.-It-happened-because-of-racism.html

Location : I propose inserting a paragraph under Home Secretary (1997–2001), after the paragraph on the Chiliean Dictator because it became more important at the end of his stint as Home Secretary.

3rd Draft

According to Professor Jays Official Goverment report the Rotherham sexual abuse scandal continued at this time. Asians, originally from Pakistan, targeted and abused over 1400 white children as young as 12 years old. According to "The Jay report" quote "there were examples of children who had been doused in petrol and threatened with being set alight, threatened with guns, made to witness brutally violent rapes and threatened they would be next if they told anyone." The only action taken by the Home Office at that time was to send draft guidance on ‘child sexual exploitation’ to Social Services and the Area Child Protection Committee (ACPC).[1]

According to the telegraph Jack Straw had highlighted the problem four years prior to the report being published, Jack Straw quote “ there was a "specific problem" in some areas of the country where Pakistani men "target vulnerable young white girls". White girls were, he said, viewed as “easy meat”."

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/crime/11392781/Rotherham-abuse-didnt-happen-because-of-political-correctness.-It-happened-because-of-racism.html

Update : I have removed the reference to Jack Straw and used the text "at this time". This is correct from the dates quoted in the Jay report and avoids repeating the same dates again in the article. The paragraphs position in the section is reflective of the date. I have given further consideration to User: Mean as custard point and if this would be more appropriate under the Home Office heading given the numerous references to the Home Office in the Jay Report. Having reviewed the Home Office wikipedia page, the material there is about the Home Office as an institution, not what the Home Office was doing at that time under any particular leadership. There are no separate wikipedia pages for what the Home Office does during different times, and so I summise the best place to have this information would be in the Biograpahy section of the person running the Home Office at that time. There is a section for this information in the individuals biogrpahy section.

Overall I do believe it is factual, neutral and an improvement to the article. Although it cam stil be worked on. I'll leave this for a few days and see if I get any comments before i add it in. Thanks ~ User talk:People1750

I assume you are aware of articles on Rotherham child sexual exploitation scandal and Prof Alexis Jay and also c. I note the Rotherham article doesn't mention Straw but your section

below, added to Straw's page is useful.

According to the Telegraph Straw had highlighted the problem four years prior to the report being published, saying “ there was a "specific problem" in some areas of the country where Pakistani men "target vulnerable young white girls". White girls were, he said, viewed as “easy meat”." http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/crime/11392781/Rotherham-abuse-didnt-happen-because-of-political-correctness.-It-happened-because-of-racism.html

Regards JRPG (talk) 20:33, 2 January 2016 (UTC)

Yes I have read the Rotherham child sexual exploitation scandal and Prof Alexis Jay. Noted : WP:SURNAME

User:JRPG|JRPG The Jay report by its nature, ie being a goverment report, in most circumstances protocol provents the report handing out blame unless the goverment wants to particularly single someone out. Hence there are very few names, only institutions are quoted. As an encycopedia we can be more honest than a political appointee, Prof Jay in this cse, about who was incharge.

Interestingly enough there are quite a number of references in the papers linking Tony Blair to the scandal. With the notability and number of articles linking Blair increasing maybe some reference should be included in his biography page?

I will edit all this talk back to key points when we have finished.

Thank you People1750 (talk) 10:29, 4 January 2016 (UTC)

Uhm .. I'm only too well aware of the nature of government reports, however for the avoidance of doubt we cannot make this a wp:attack page or attribute blame that is not in wp:rs or invite the reader to draw conclusions via wp:synth as this would lead to reversion. JRPG (talk) 11:02, 4 January 2016 (UTC)

References

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