Talk:Iarnród Éireann

Pronunciation

It’s given as [ˈiəɾˠn̪ˠˌɾˠoːd̪ˠ ˈeːɾʲən̪ˠ]. [ˠ] is close to German <ü>, and is not used in any actual pronunciation of Iarnród Éireann, neither in Irish nor English. I'm changing this to reflect the correct [ʲ]; if you have a good reason for changing it back, please include it here 91.64.130.180 (talk) 17:28, 12 March 2008 (UTC)

It should be noted that the above statement is incorrect, in that (superscript) [ˠ] is not "close to German <ü>"; it is, in fact, an indication that the preceding consonant is velarized. Since User:91.64.130.180's comment was made the IPA has been 1) altered to (the incorrect) [ˈiəɾʲnʲˌɾʲoːdʲ ˈeːɾʲənʲ]; 2) removed altogether; and 3) restored as [ˈiəɾˠnˠɾˠoːdˠ ˈeːɾʲən̪ˠ]. Personally, I would prefer to see [ˠ] dispensed with in IPA representations of Irish: it is surely enough to indicate the palatalized ("narrow") consonants (by means of [ʲ]) and leave the rest to be taken as velarized ("broad") by default. That is the way that dictionaries dealt with the question "when I was alive". I wonder, can anyone perhaps point me to where there may have been a discussion on this matter in the Talk pages of Wikipedia? I've looked, but have yet to find one. -- Picapica (talk) 19:20, 14 January 2017 (UTC)

Iarnrod Eireann - Irish Rail

The company's name, as registered at the Companies Registration Office in Dublin, is 'Iarnrod Eireann - Irish Rail' and the company uses 'Irish Rail' as their main brand these days... so, why is "Iarnród Éireann" being used here and else where on Wikipedia? Monucg 00:43, 24 October 2007 (UTC)

See Wikipedia:Manual of Style (Ireland-related articles) specifically Wikipedia:Manual of Style (Ireland-related articles)#Other_articles Article 2 Strongsauce 01:02, 24 October 2007 (UTC)

Services

I believe that sources/references of some sort (survey results for example) should be used to validate the following comments. This is to ensure that Wikipedia's neutral point of view policy is adhered to.
"Quality of service is generally good."
"The Dublin to Belfast (the Enterprise route) is well regarded, despite occasional problems with punctuality."
"The Cork - Dublin route is also quite well regarded."
Ga2re2t 16:36, 14 July 2007 (UTC)

Network Catering

I propose Network Catering be merged into Iarnrod Eireann as the unit is part of this comapny and chances are it will not be develop into a full article. ant_ie 18:21, 13 October 2005 (UTC)

Done --RFBailey 19:49, 22 October 2005 (UTC)

Pearse Station

I propose that Pearse Station be removed from the list of main Intercity stations, as it is not, in general, an Intercity station, merely a DART station. Heuston Station is the terminus for Intercity services to Cork, Limerick, Tralee, Waterford, Ballina, Westport, and Galway; Connolly Station is the terminus for Intercity services to Sligo and Rosslare Harbour, and Enterprise services to Belfast. Pearse Station is merely a commuter hub. Stifle 15:15, 10 November 2005 (UTC)

Agree ant_ie 18:00, 10 November 2005 (UTC)

With no objections, I've gone ahead with this edit. Stifle 23:27, 13 November 2005 (UTC)

Operational scope

According to Luas, IE does not operate that rail system. Are there other independent rail systems in the Republic? -- Beland 00:32, 11 May 2006 (UTC)

I have removed the dubious tag on the following grounds: Luas is a tram and not a railway, IE operates "all internal intercity, suburban and commuter railway services in the Republic of Ireland" (luas would not come under any of those heading anyway); Northern Ireland Railways operates a joint service with IE but this is an international service in all but name and Northern Ireland Railways do not offer any purely internal services in the Republic of Ireland (theirfore the statement is still true). Their is a railway line from Waterford to Wexford and this is part privately owned, but operated exclusively by IE.

Thus in summary no other company offers services that could be discribed as "internal intercity, suburban and commuter railway services in the Republic of Ireland". Djegan 21:25, 11 May 2006 (UTC)

Weasel/peacock words/phrases

Hi, i have noticed a few areas that use weasel and peacock terms without any citation to back them up

"this route is quite poor as it is faster to drive by car even at peak times"
"Rolling stock are quite good on this route"

While through experience i may agree with the first assertion, the fact remains that it needs to be properly cited. Does anybody have the time to deal with these instances of peacock and weasel?Darigan (talk) 14:07, 7 October 2009 (UTC)

"contrary to normal European practice where such namings are generally used only when there are two or more stations in a town or city":

What evidence is there for this statement? Eog1916 (talk) 15:17, 15 October 2013 (UTC)

Assessment comment

The comment(s) below were originally left at Talk:Iarnród Éireann/Comments, and are posted here for posterity. Following several discussions in past years, these subpages are now deprecated. The comments may be irrelevant or outdated; if so, please feel free to remove this section.

Needs more references, and expansion. FF3000 · talk 22:14, 17 July 2009 (UTC)

Last edited at 22:14, 17 July 2009 (UTC). Substituted at 18:43, 29 April 2016 (UTC)

Shocked to oblivion due lack of electric shock.

The article fails to mention IÉ has deep problems due to lack of electrification. They neglected to install catenary on 95% of their lines and now are on the verge of closing down much of their network, due to the work-intensive and expensive nature of diesel gugglers. The long term survival of railways is only possible via high-tension AC traction at the national grid frequency, that is a well established fact by now. 92.52.236.107 (talk) 10:37, 26 November 2016 (UTC)

98% actually Sonicandknuckles (talk) 09:24, 29 August 2019 (UTC)

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Irish rail

This is the English Wikipedia, Irish Rail is an official name of the company and is used in the logo. So that name should be used, not the Irish (difficult pronounceable) name. It's not like Garda Síochána where only the Irish name exists and is used.--Wester (talk) 12:58, 4 January 2021 (UTC)

@Wester: according to the relevant Irish statue the name is officially Iarnród Éireann—Irish Rail, so I would advocate for the article to be renamed that (as it already is in the infobox). Smirkybec (talk) 20:18, 10 January 2022 (UTC)

Requested move 16 March 2024

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: not moved. (closed by non-admin page mover) Sceptre (talk) 00:27, 15 April 2024 (UTC)

---

Iarnród Éireann → Irish Rail – Relevant links: WP:UE and MOS:IRELAND. The English name is in the logo, the domain is https://www.irishrail.ie/en-ie/, and some sources use the English name like here and there. I think it fits with MOS Ireland if 'a subject has both an English and an Irish version of their name, use the English version if it is more common among English speakers'. Screen Ireland is called that way rather than Fís Éireann so could also apply here. JuniperChill (talk) 16:08, 16 March 2024 (UTC)

• Support as per nom. 162 etc. (talk) 16:59, 16 March 2024 (UTC)
• Oppose Firstly, nom has cherry-picked two sources (one British) using Irish Rail but ignored other sources using Iarnród Éireann, such as The Limerick Post, The Irish Times, RTÉ, Railway Gazette International and Business Post. The nom has not presented any evidence that usage in English-language sources in Ireland prefers Irish Rail. Per WP:TITLEVAR we should use the name that predominates in Irish sources, and the nom has provided just one Irish source, Galway Beo. Yet here is an article from Galway Beo today using Iarnród Éireann. The nom says we should change the title because the "English name is in the logo" - yet so is its current name. The nom cites WP:UE which is ridiculous because Irish English incorporates many names from the Irish language, such as Garda Síochána, Taoiseach and Tailte Éireann to name a few. I note Screen Ireland was moved in 2022 following a discussion with a single two-word contribution, which seems highly inappropriate. AusLondonder (talk) 17:10, 16 March 2024 (UTC)

• Oppose per Aus, Screen Ireland should probably be moved back for the same reasons—blindlynx 18:42, 16 March 2024 (UTC)

  (replay to both @Blindlynx and [[@AusLondonder)

  But Screen Ireland is being used as an example at MOS:IRELAND. I do not plan to introduce a rename of that page but any further enquiries about the name of Screen Ireland should be directed there. See also: Irish Water since that was also planned to rename to the Irish name and the Irish water logo has both names.

  In addition, the reason why I would keep Conradh na Gaelgae (idk spelling for Gaelic League) and what Aus said is because the Irish name is (almost) always used. Also, not sure if we apply names based on normal user preference but I think most people search up Irish Rail since the Irish name is hard to spell and remember. Same can be said for Irish Water. Google Scholar gives me 362k results but that also is talking about railways in Ireland in general and not the company. And this uses both names. This sounds like the Ivory Coast scnenario where the French Côte d'Ivoire may be used officially, but Ivory Coast remains in many news pages. Also since this is English Wikipedia, the English name should be used if it is there and at least occasionally used which applies here. And while this page has ties to Ireland, do we look for sources from Ireland or sources internationally? JuniperChill (talk) 19:30, 16 March 2024 (UTC)

  @AusLondonder, @Blindlynx, @JuniperChill, Screen Ireland was previously at Fís Éireann/Screen Ireland, not Fís Éireann, so a move to Fís Éireann, would need to meet COMMONNAME, which I don't think it would. DankJae 22:24, 16 March 2024 (UTC)

  Based on that guideline we should consider the Irish names when looking at common name so between that and WP:TITLEVAR all we really shoudl look at is what's used in Irish english-lang sources, right? —blindlynx 22:28, 16 March 2024 (UTC)

  @Blindlynx, I don't think MOS:IRELAND replaces WP:COMMONNAME, so general English-language use is still considered not just English-language sources from Ireland, the MOS just says "English speakers". TITLEVAR is for spelling not on the actual names. DankJae 22:46, 16 March 2024 (UTC)

  I don't agree, TITLEVAR says "If a topic has strong ties to a particular English-speaking nation, the title of its article should use that nation's variety of English" - in this case, Irish English incorporates Irish language words as part of their national variety of English. AusLondonder (talk) 13:06, 17 March 2024 (UTC)

  It literally provides "Defence" vs "Defense" as the example, so clearly on spelling. Considering the large use of Irish Rail in news sources, and how niche it is, so most sources are likely from Ireland, Irish Rail is the name they more likely use in Ireland too. GT shows the Irish themselves overwhelmingly use "Irish Rail". DankJae 14:16, 17 March 2024 (UTC)

• Weak support, weak because the proposal doesn't actually prove WP:COMMONNAME which is mentioned in WP:UE (The choice between anglicized and local spellings should follow English-language usage) (referring to general), and MOS:IRELAND Where a subject has both an English and an Irish version of their name, use the English version if it is more common among English speakers., only mentioning two sources of potentially hundreds. However, despite considering being neutral, lean support because Ngrams supports that "Irish Rail" has been used more by 2019 and search results of both general results (IR ~1 million vs IE 412,000) and news articles (IR 12,000 vs IE 300) heavily lean "Irish Rail", reducing any risk of miscategorisation. However, a list of sources using either would be preferred, and while the operator does use Irish Rail in their logo, they do prefer the Irish name on more technical topics, but Wikipedia doesn't follow WP:OFFICIALNAMES "just because". DankJae 22:48, 16 March 2024 (UTC)
• Support per DankJae. Ngrams and news articles show "Irish Rail" more common and the logo uses it. It provides an opportunity for WP:COMMONALITY by being more broadly understandable. —⁠ ⁠BarrelProof (talk) 16:32, 17 March 2024 (UTC)

Note: WikiProject Trains and WikiProject Ireland have been notified of this discussion. JuniperChill (talk) 11:48, 21 March 2024 (UTC)

While that would make sense, the name Iararód Éireann is equally as common, so I don’t mind it using the Irish name. But I’m sure Irish Wikipedia will still call it Iararód Éireann anyway.

Why don’t we change Bray Daly railway station to Bray railway station? The other stations outside Dublin aren’t referred to their 1916 Riding leader names on here. JoshuaW56 (talk) 12:00, 21 March 2024 (UTC)

• Oppose The Google-based arguments have an inherent bias due to the language issue (not only with Irish, by the way) and limited covering outside the USA. The Irish name is well used in Irish sources, so no need to create complications by moving. Additionally, ENWP has a number of language-warriors (using IPs) around, who wants to keep everything in Irish (even when not sensible). Hope the proposer is willing to deal with the clique. The Banner talk 12:11, 21 March 2024 (UTC)

  Supporters of Irish-language titles deserve an equal say in the RM, but they don't OWN the article and must follow consensus like the rest of us. Certes (talk) 13:30, 21 March 2024 (UTC)

• Oppose The Iarnród Éireann name is heavily used by the company itself on trains, in train stations, and in public company communications, and is in common daily usage by Irish broadcasters and print media. The name is immediately familiar to the Irish population through all this saturated representation in Irish, even if well-meaning, distant, non-Irish, Wikipedia editors – using blind robots which lack interpretive insight such as Ngrams, which don't always accurately reflect regular human practice in real life or on the ground – find it difficult to imagine such prevalence in daily life in Ireland. The Iarnród Éireann usage and existing article title actually conform to both MOS:IRELAND and WP:COMMONNAME. Like other articles about Irish transport systems such as Córas Iompair Éireann, Luas, and Aer Lingus, the Irish names of such transport companies is the official norm – even in English language conversation and in print (Ireland practices a considerable amount of daily bilinguality like this). This is a non-problem which does not require fixing. Spideog (talk) 13:03, 21 March 2024 (UTC)

• Oppose. While, unlike it's parent general transport company (Córas Iompair Éireann) and sister bus company (Bus Éireann), the subject rail company (Iarnród Éireann) does have an English version of its name ("Irish Rail"), I don't agree with the argument that the English version is more commonly used among English speakers (in Ireland). Or that "it's (also) in the logo" or "its in the web domain" are strong arguments for a move. The applicable guidelines, as noted, are WP:COMMONNAME and WP:IMOS. The latter, which the nom points to as rationale for a move, gives that "when the Irish version is more common among English speakers, use the Irish version". I would argue, based on examples of very recent news coverage (in multiple and varied sources) that "Iarnród Éireann" is commonly used (within English language sources) to refer to the subject. And, while the English language variant is also (of course) used, it's not (IMO) sufficiently preeminent to warrant a move. (As an aside, and while I understand the inclination to point to MOS:COMMONALITY in this discussion, I note that many non-Irish news outlets recently [1] used the term "Irish PM", or similar, when referring to the office of Taoiseach. Likely for "COMMONALITY" reasons. Such use could not, just to note, be used as an argument for moving the Taoiseach article. Not unlike Taoiseach, Iarnród Éireann is used - in general English speech within Ireland - to refer to the subject under discussion.) Guliolopez (talk) 13:14, 21 March 2024 (UTC)

  and @Spideog: see Irish Water, Screen Ireland. All of them titles are in English name although the former has been formally rebranded. Also Pākehā settlers ((See RM and Move review) and which was a very long winded move about whether English or the native name should be used but finally reached an agreement to European settlers in New Zealand)and Ivory Coast . Like for exmaple, a non Irish speaker would not recognize Iarnród Éireann immediately but definitely Irish Rail. We also have a bunch of articles that are translated into English like the Royal Spanish Academy but Académie Française. Oviously the Conradh na Gaeilge, CIE and Luas can stay as it is because the translated version is not (commonly) used and also not in the logo. Plus, its common for even the Irish to use the English name in speech and writing but not sure if this is allowed. Also look at internet forums. If at least ~40% sources the Irish and Englisn names, it makes sense to use English as this is English wikipedia and the English name is there. See DankJae's comment above for numbers JuniperChill (talk) 13:52, 21 March 2024 (UTC)

  Hi. I understand why you mention them, but Irish Water and Screen Ireland are not comparable. Apples and oranges. (Or, perhaps, longstanding coconuts and new/obscure grapes...)

  Irish Water was known as Irish Water from its formation. In 2013. It only rebranded in 2022. You will note several discussions (on Talk:Irish Water) on whether the common (English) name or the official (Irish) name should take precedence. You might find it interesting to note that, unlike here, I have repeatedly advocated that the English name is the COMMONNAME. And doesn't meet the IMOS threshold.

  Screen Ireland was also a title/name born out of a rebrand. In 2015/2018. Its official name ("Fís Éireann/Screen Ireland") and Irish subset/variant ("Fís Éireann") do not have the same longevity or common usage - to the extent that either can be considered a COMMONNAME in English. If someone were to propose moving that title to its official or Irish name, then I'd also argue that the English name is COMMONNAME. And also doesn't meet the IMOS threshold.

  In a note above, The Banner mentions "a number of language-warriors [..] who wants to keep everything in Irish (even when not sensible)". To confirm, and as evidenced above, I am not in that camp. And am not advocating for this/other Irish names for insensible/intransigent/"religious" reasons. As with others contributing here, I have a good faith belief that the Irish name has sufficiently COMMON usage, in English language sources and in daily speech by English speakers in Ireland, to support its use as the article title. Something which cannot be said for newly created brand names (like Uisce Éireann). And the new/official names of entities that the man-on-the-street has never heard of (like Fís Éireann/Screen Ireland). Guliolopez (talk) 15:46, 21 March 2024 (UTC)

  I have clarified that those language warriors use IPs, not registered accounts. The Banner talk 16:02, 21 March 2024 (UTC)

• Oppose The Irish name is perfectly fine and clear that it is the company that is the subject of the article. The suggested new title could also refer to an article covering railways in Ireland. Mjroots (talk) 17:57, 24 March 2024 (UTC)

  For the latter subject, "Rail" would be "rail". —⁠ ⁠BarrelProof (talk) 19:05, 24 March 2024 (UTC)

• Weak support Google News indicates that both Irish Rail and Iarnród Éireann are used by reliable news sources, sometimes interchangeably by the same news sources. On that basis, I'd be inclined towards the former, on the basis of WP:EN (in the way that I wasn't, where I had proposed moving Irish Water to Uisce Éireann). But as both are used in English-language sources, I'm not strongly in favour of the move. --Iveagh Gardens (talk) 16:19, 30 March 2024 (UTC)
• Oppose per Aus and others. Spleodrach (talk) 09:46, 6 April 2024 (UTC)

Comment Both names are supposed to be equally valid in Ireland, picking one over the other is inherently a cultural assertion. The only compromise I see is to use both like Irish Rail/Iarnród Éireann. Ireland appears to be different from Canada or New Zealand in that way, which still use the English rule generally. IgelRM (talk) 13:11, 7 April 2024 (UTC)

Wikipedia generally avoids using clearly redundant titles (titles containing multiple synonyms). —⁠ ⁠BarrelProof (talk) 15:06, 7 April 2024 (UTC)

• Weak oppose - both forms are used in Ireland (and international coverage is minor and derivative, so I see a strong case for focusing on Irish sources). It is not as clear cut as RTE (no English form has ever been used) or CIE (the English form is practically never used), nor historically complicated, as for Conradh na Gaeilge (for much of its history known, and prominently, by its English name more than the Irish - but solely by the Irish for decades now). I'd assess the two forms of the railway company name as close in "weight", curiously, while for sister company Bus Eireann, as for their mutual parent State company, the English language form might as well not exist - and so the "weak" aspect to my !vote, as there is some case either way. And as they've been brought up, Screen Ireland is the sole name used in most fora for a good while - Fis Eireann never fully caught on - while Irish Water was solely that in common usage, and the "rebrand" has proven very difficult to "sell", and neither of these tells us anything about IE / IR. On balance, and as it is valid and of long standing, I'd leave this alone, with redirects supporting. Ireland and Hiberno-English do utilise Irish language forms pretty casually, and this is such a case, and I think we can respect this reality. I oppose any "dual title" concept. SeoR (talk) 00:02, 10 April 2024 (UTC)

  Sounds similar to Ivory Coasts case where it actually used to be titled in its French name. While Irish sources are a hit and miss, I think the general population use Irish Rail rather than its translation since it is hard to say and spell. There is a clear difference between the English name being used in Ireland (almost) exclusively, like the Dublin Bus, sometimes, as applied here, and not (commonly) at all, as with CIE and Met Éireann. And Ireland is an English Speaking country. Therefore as this is English Wikipedia, the English name should be used if it is there. Although applyign may case, cor anglais would have been called english horn. However, corn anglais is basically the term used in UK while English horn in USA so that is an example of MOS:ENGVAR and therefore MOS:RETAIN which does not apply here.

  And with dual titles, how about Biel/Bienne? Or SNCB/NMBS and SBB CFF FFS?

  There is also a comment just above this RM that states IRish rail should be used. JuniperChill (talk) 16:22, 10 April 2024 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.