Talk:Hōkūleʻa

Kama Hele

Kama Hele is very very important and interesting about Hokule'a. Hokule'a had been towed from Okinawa to Muroto(Kochi prefecture) by Kama Hele. Moreover, Nainoa stressed about the importance of escorting the boat everywhere, everytime(And he speaks fromlong experience). He said again and again that without Kama Hele, Hokule'a can't go anywhere. You can read about how he and PVS thinks about importance of an escort boat at Ben Finney's "Sailing in the wake of Ancestors" (University of Hawaii Press). Don't you know that Kama Hele had designed only for Hokule'a by Alex Jakubenko? Alex is the captain of Ishka, the escort boat of Hokule'a for 1980 Tahiti voyage (see Will Kyselka's "An Ocean in Mind",University of Hawaii Press ). Alex felt it's very important to take a modern escort boat along with Hokule'a. Japanese people also felt that Kama Hele is the integral part of the canoe and volunteered to sail it back to Hawai'i in July-August 2007. Anyway, you should talk with Nainoa and ask him "Is Kama Hele important or interesting in Polynesian Voyaging and Hokule'a?". I can imagine that he replies immediately that "Yes! Kama Hele is very important for Hokule'a". --Uniontour (talk) 16:16, 25 November 2007 (UTC)

Adding references. Stuart Holmes Coleman "Eddie Would Go: The Story of Eddie Aikau, Hawaiian Hero "(Bess Press, 2002), Ben Finney et al "Voyage of rediscovery"(University of California Press, 1994). Have you read them? If you read them, You can understand why escoat boat is very important for Hokule'a. --Uniontour (talk) 16:39, 25 November 2007 (UTC)

Passing of Crew

Would it be appropriate and respectful to note in this article's list of crew, the passing on of Hokule'a crew not mentioned as Eddie Aikau? This might be shown as David Lewis (d. 2002). I thought it might be appropriate to ask before doing something like this out of respect for the people and the project. For instance, see the following Honolulu Star Bulletin story. Newportm (talk) 02:35, 21 July 2008 (UTC)

Thanks for asking. I have not been involved in this page except to add the list of crew members for the first voyage. It seems to me it would be very appropriate to have the names of crew members of all voyages. As to dates of birth and death, I'm not sure. That seems to me to be tangential to the point of the article. But if you did it I would not object. Since no one has responded to your question I suppose it is not controversial. Maybe do it for the first crew and see what response you get before you do it for everyone. But if you could find the names of the voyagers on the other trips that would be great. Mahalo! Makana Chai (talk) 19:17, 23 July 2008 (UTC)

I have kept it low key with the little asterisks that look like stars in the sky, which seems appropriate for these sailors. The note down the page refers people to the Polynesian Voyaging Society site for more info, etc. I personally knew Rodo Williams, met him in Bora Bora in 1979, and have met Kimo Lyman, brother of Dave. Good people.

{{okina}} versus lsquo in this Hokuleʻa article

In reading through the WikiProject Hawaiʻi - Manual of Style, I noticed User:Agent_X's post (Titled: LSQUO, ‘, works better than {{okina}}, ʻ ). In that post, he demonstrates italicized variations of this diacritic, but I was unable to link to it, so, to recap, the two symbols can be rendered using:

• {{okina}}

(New editors - the expression here has been bookended with opening ( <nowiki> ) and closing ( </nowiki> ) "nowiki" tags for demonstration, so content inside the braces does not get wiki-rendered; instead the keystrokes needed to duplicate it are shown - click "edit this page" to see for yourself)

which wiki-renders as inside these parentheses: ( ʻ ).

or

• lsquo

(implied leading " & " and trailing " ; " are not shown here; when these characters bookend that expression),

this displays as inside the following parentheses: ( ‘ )  (Looks like a speck of dust).

In this Hokuleʻa article, I applied User:Agent_X's thesis. In italicized type (as for boats' names), I used:

• " lsquo " ( ‘ ) in place of " {{okina}} " ( ʻ ),

as in Hokule‘a compared to Hokuleʻa, (macrons over "o" and "u" not shown to emphasize the okina diacritic mark)

but for text not italicized, I used the contrary:

• " {{okina}} " or ( ʻ ), in place of " lsquo " or ( ‘ ),

as in: Hokuleʻa, compared to Hokule‘a,

I posted this to explain what appears to be inconsistent use of one or the other in this article. Maybe this is too much trouble? I imagine that if someone finds this inconsistency intolerable, he (or she) will change it.

Aloha. Newportm (talk) 08:17, 25 July 2008 (UTC)

Red links in "See Also" section

This note was posted on my talk page:

I have removed t[w]o red links from the see also section. Per WP:SEEALSO, re[d] links should not be included in the see also section, only blue links should be included. For details, see WP:SEEALSO. Otolemur crassicaudatus (talk) 03:44, 2 August 2008 (UTC)

Links removed:

• Makaliʻi
• Waka Hourua

I note this here in case anybody is planning on adding these pages.Newportm (talk) 04:00, 2 August 2008 (UTC)

Hokulea moved to Hōkūleʻa

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section.

Resolved

 – -Newportm (talk) 19:26, 26 August 2008 (UTC)

Another editor moved this article. The move either automatically added a redirect from "Hokulea" to "Hōkūleʻa" or he added one. But now "Hōkūleʻa" looks messed up in my browser bar (in both Firefox 2.0.0.15 and IE 7.0.5730.11, but okay in Safari 3.1.1). Is that the reason nobody from WikiProject Hawaiʻi did this in the four years this article has been up? Is there a convention with the other WP Hawaiʻi articles? Should this move be undone? (and the talk page's move too?) Newportm (talk) 22:09, 23 August 2008 (UTC)

I believe the general agreement is that if the "English" spelling is more commonly used, then the article should be named as such (for example, Hawaii is more commonly used than Hawaiʻi, so we name the article "Hawaii"). There was also a debate on which ʻokina style should have been used. {{okina}} (ʻ) is the proper ʻokina, but it's not supported by all browsers. ‘ (&lsquo) is a reasonable alternative even though it's not the correct ʻokina. I think, though, that Hokulea is more commonly used than Hōkūleʻa, so the title should be Hokulea (unless I'm wrong). By the way, mahalo nui loa no kāu hana i kēia mea (thanks for all your work on this article)! :) —Kal ^(talk) 02:39, 24 August 2008 (UTC)

For future reference, from researching this article, the most common form of the name is Hokuleʻa (without a macron, or kahakō, over o, u). Some sources observe the convention of setting ship's names in italics, some do not. In Wikipedia, the convention is to use italics for ship's names. Showing the name without ō, ū and ʻa (okina) is likely due to the challenge to amateurs of rendering these characters. But in professionally typeset works, such as Finney, Voyage of Rediscovery, 1994, the typeset name is approximated here by:

using & lsquo ; as in Hōkūle‘a, not with
{{okina}} which produces Hōkūleʻa, against normal text,
or as Hōkūleʻa against italic text.

Unfortunately, in IE7 as quoted above, when used in an article title, the okina consonant renders as a rectangle in the browser bar – that (usually blue) bar at the top of the browser window – and in browser tabs (introduced in IE7). This is based on my Windows XP/SP2 machine. Newportm (talk) 21:43, 26 August 2008 (UTC)

One could argue that the bold move could be undone. It was made by User:Doremítzwr who has a history of doing this. We have documented, ongoing reports of problems with diacritics displaying properly (see User talk:Bentnhaf). Viriditas (talk) 04:21, 26 August 2008 (UTC)

Since the kahako and okina do not render faithfully in the most widely used browser (IE7), to insist on this punctuation for the page name, simply because it is technically correct, is to overlook how unprofessional and un-encylopedic this makes the article look in browser bars and window tabs. Hopefully the day will come that this issue will be resolved for the mass-market. Until then, perhaps this article's title best serves Wikipedia in unpunctuated fashion. User:Doremítzwr's page move is the right idea, but it comes before its time. Newportm (talk) 05:10, 26 August 2008 (UTC)

Yes, exactly. I'll try and undo the move. Viriditas (talk) 05:15, 26 August 2008 (UTC)

My apologies for unintentionally causing this problem; the article title displayed correctly in my (Firefox) browser. Would it be possible to have an italicised message atop the article, reading something like: The correct title of this article is Hōkūleʻa; however, due to display restrictions, the macrons and ʻokina have been omitted. perhaps? Raifʻhār Doremítzwr (talk) 16:50, 26 August 2008 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

GA checklist

Good article checklist. Viriditas (talk) 00:39, 7 October 2008 (UTC)

I have been otherwise occupied but found some time to share on this. On my Sandbox page, I have reshaped the lead and have moved dimensional detail down into the construction and purpose section. Steps in the right direction? Newportm (talk) 02:46, 30 October 2008 (UTC)

Yes. And I just noticed that the images section can be eliminated by merging all of them into the body of the article. I'm categorizing the images at Commons right now. Viriditas (talk) 14:27, 31 October 2008 (UTC)

Media related to Hokulea at Wikimedia Commons Viriditas (talk) 15:11, 31 October 2008 (UTC)

Wiktionary

Do we really need a Wiktionary link to "voyage"? I would rather see it inline. Viriditas (talk) 14:16, 25 October 2008 (UTC)

Good idea. It doesn't need the break-out box link. I looked up how to make the Wiktionary definition of "voyage" an inline link, since the Wikipedia "voyage" dab page didn't define the term. I haven't been able to spend that much time on this article lately. However, while a couple of editors have made good faith edits changing crew list names, references were not supplied, so I have made a couple reversions with edit summaries to explain the reason for the reversions. Newportm (talk) 05:08, 27 October 2008 (UTC)

I think we need to start working on rewriting the lead per your comments on your talk page. It would be a good idea to add the planned three-year circumnavigation to the end of the lead as well. Viriditas (talk) 08:20, 27 October 2008 (UTC)

Cleanup

Article has been tagged for cleanup. I would be happy to help, but I don't want to step on Newportm's toes, so I'm open to discussion. Viriditas (talk) 06:46, 13 March 2009 (UTC)

Viriditas, your graciousness and diplomacy are exemplary. I have seen your fine ideas for this article and I support your vision for it; please do not feel as though you will be stepping on my toes--or keyboard! I made some efforts on revamping this, still in my Sandbox, which you are welcome to if you wish. The copy that is in the November Project Hawaii newsletter is also excellent. I have simply not had time to carry this to the next level, but I am game to help you however I can. Aloha nui loa. Newportm (talk) 00:48, 16 March 2009 (UTC)

IP editor

An IP editor who claims to have sailed on Hokule'a made a recent edit (diff) to crew list section of USA leg. Since the editor included what appears to be that editor's email address in the edit summary, I assume good faith. I have written that person to advice of confict of interest and verifiability issues. I asked the editor to follow up with a printed citation for the edit since I can't find the info on the web.  –Newportm (talk • contribs) 18:40, 18 August 2009 (UTC)

Resolved

 –  –Newportm (talk • contribs) 15:28, 8 November 2009 (UTC)

Article size

This article is currently quite long, over 100KB. WP:Article size advises that it be split into smaller articles, to make it easier to read and edit. Are there any possible sub-articles that could be spun out of this one per WP:Summary style? List of Hokulea voyages, perhaps? Robofish (talk) 22:37, 30 November 2009 (UTC)

Time to revisit using kahakō in title??

I propose we revisit this. After all, the Māori articles have all been using the tohutō = macron = kahakō for years now without any problem. Kahuroa (talk) 19:07, 22 September 2010 (UTC)

Certainly the snide remark probably does not belong. Diacritics have been creeping into person names, e.g. Kalākaua, Keelikōlani and others. The use in place names seems much more controversial since the 2000 Census database did not use them. Just need to make sure we have consensus before engaging in a move war. For that matter, the ʻokina has been creeping in too, such as in the article on ʻokina! So the question is to include ʻokina too? Is the question still Internet Explorer 6 support, or is there a further font issue? W Nowicki (talk) 20:08, 22 September 2010 (UTC)

Not that we could put the Okina template into the title. By the way the Special Characters drop-box in the editing window has a diacritic ‘ (under symbols). It looks like this: Hawai‘i, Hawai‘i. It's there as part of the Wikimedia interface I guess there would be no compatibility issues - Māori doesn't use the okina in the standard dialect so I am not an expert on this though. As I said, the New Zealand Wikiproject uses the macron all over the place, and in article titles too. It's not an issue at all for us - no one ever complains they can't see them AFAIK. Kahuroa (talk) 21:36, 22 September 2010 (UTC)

Of course one cannot put a template in the title, but the Unicode character to which it expands. Looking again, I think there are three related issues:

1. How they render in the body fonts; they already used in the body (modulo the strangeness with italics as noted above). I think this was the IE5 and IE6 issue which should not longer be as important since they only have about 17% of users according to its page. It might even mean we could take out the hard-wiring of the font in that template? I wonder if that would fix the italics issue.
2. How they appear in URLs. For example http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/%CA%BBokina looks ugly but not much can be done, and precedent seems to be there. I just tried suffing the character into my URL bar in IE8 and it worked fine too.
3. Appearance in the "browser bar" or the window or tab name. Evidently this was still an issue with IE7, but if it is the same for the kahakō then might as handle tem both the same way.

W Nowicki (talk) 22:46, 22 September 2010 (UTC)

One thing keeps bothering me - why does this article use the kahakō (Hōkūle`a) when the photograph of the canoe itself (File:Hokulea02.jpg) has it spelt Hokule`a? Kahuroa (talk) 22:30, 24 September 2010 (UTC)

That is an easy one. The reason is because diacritics are generally not used on capital letters (no space for them in the font). W Nowicki (talk) 01:01, 25 September 2010 (UTC)

Okay. This is a good-faith question. What is our source for inserting them then? At the moment it seems to be pronunciation advice by Finney Kahuroa (talk) 01:52, 25 September 2010 (UTC)

Good point, the usual source for Hawaiian language scholarly reference should be added:

Mary Kawena Pukui; Samuel Hoyt Elbert (2003). "lookup of hōkū". in Hawaiian Dictionary. Ulukau, the Hawaiian Electronic Library, University of Hawaii Press.

Mary Kawena Pukui; Samuel Hoyt Elbert (2003). "lookup of leʻa". in Hawaiian Dictionary. Ulukau, the Hawaiian Electronic Library, University of Hawaii Press.

W Nowicki (talk) 15:33, 28 September 2010 (UTC)

Sure, but my question is not about how the constituent words of the canoe's name are pronounced or written in the dictionary, but about the name of the canoe itself. If it's registered, how was it spelt? Kahuroa (talk) 18:13, 28 September 2010 (UTC)

See this. The vessel is named after the star Arcturus, per the article. Known as the "Star of Gladness" because it helped navigators find Hawaiʻi.  –Newportm (talk • contribs) 18:54, 28 September 2010 (UTC)

I don't think you understand what I am asking. Again, you are pointing me to a dictionary entry - I am not doubting that the word in the Hawaiian language has long vowels that are marked with the kahakō. But I would have thought that it is not the place of Wikipedia to use a dictionary to work out what diacritics should go into names. What Wikipedia should use is the spelling used when the canoe was registered, surely, or perhaps the spelling the owners of the vessel use in citable sources Kahuroa (talk) 21:05, 28 September 2010 (UTC)

Finney, the Hawaiian dictionary, this professionally typeset publication, even the Polynesian Voyaging Society archives (on occasion) go to the trouble to use the full diacritics with kohakō and okina. But most of the documentation is from typewriter days. Today there are people in college who have never seen a typewriter except perhaps in a movie. The user was limited to the characters on the typewriter, which generally did not have had the diacritics. So they winged it. Even in early typewritten documents from Kamehameha Schools, you see the apostrophe used in place of the okina when they spell the word Hawai'i. Only Finney went to the trouble to manually insert diacritics onto some of his typewritten documents. The PVS archives are a fascinating resource for anyone who wants to dig in. This cavalier attitude about diacritics appears true for newspapers too in the days before their art was 100% digitally produced. Many early news stories used an apostrophe in place of the okina in reports about Hōkūle‘a or Hawaiʻi. That doesn't make them correct. Surely we can acknowledge that there should be an okina in the name Hawai‘iloa but her USCG document shows it as HAWAI'I LOA (with apostrophe). They typically use all caps for boat names...block letters were (maybe still are technically) required on the vessel itself by USCG regs so they're as legible as possible. Furthermore, Dr. Finney is eminently citable. He was a founder of the PVS, it was partly his vision to build the boat, he's published numerous books, scholar and professor, and he went to the trouble to manually insert diacritcs into typwritten documents. He cared enough to take the time. The problem on Wikipedia is browser limitations (the okina looks messed up even if the kohakō does not), so we use the hat note. –Newportm (talk • contribs) 23:23, 28 September 2010 (UTC)

I would be happy to test this out on multiple browsers and platforms and leave a note on the Hawaii project talk page when I'm done. Give me a few days. Viriditas (talk) 23:31, 28 September 2010 (UTC)

@Newportm - thanks, that's more what I was asking. I speak Māori by the way, which also uses the macrons - it's very close to Hawaiian, quite often you just change a few of the consonants and hey presto, instant Hawaiian. And the macrons tend to happen in the same places as the kahakō. So I am aware of the issues regarding the diacritics, pretty much the same happens here in New Zealand. @Viriditas, that would be great. Kahuroa (talk) 00:06, 29 September 2010 (UTC)

Ah, I refer to the wrong document above. The USCG Hawai‘iloa document that I linked to above (that is the ship's official government registration) uses an apostrophe where the okina belongs, which we see all the time. It was her FCC registration for her ship's radio that used no diacritics whatsover. I can imagine someone sitting at a computer with a black monitor and green characters typing the data in for the license muttering to self, why did they put an apostrophe in the name, that must be a typo. Names don't have apostrophes in the middle. I'll fix it. There are varying levels of consciousness about Hawaiian language and it's safe to assume that some people don't understand lack of diacritics can change the meaning of a word. –Newportm (talk • contribs) 03:22, 29 September 2010 (UTC)

Bonno Louis' catamaran

Perhaps that a link can be included to Bonno Louis' catamaran, another replica of a traditional polynesian catamaran (allot smaller though). It was mentioned in "Lost Continent of the Pacific" (NGC docu) 91.182.148.62 (talk) 06:52, 18 June 2012 (UTC)

Formatting

The formatting of the voyages section is unusual for WP, takes up lots of space and uses divs instead of wikitext. Here is an alternative that is more compact and less framework-y (I didn't change the article without consensus):

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section.

1980 Tahiti Voyage

Nainoa Thompson recreated the 1976 voyage to Tahiti to become the first Native Hawaiian in modern times to navigate a canoe thousands of miles without instruments. His mentor, Mau Piailug, sailed as observer. After 29 days at sea, before sighting Mataiva on the way to Tahiti, Mau offered Nainoa only one correction; this was of Nainoa's interpretation of sighting aland-based seabird in mid-morning flight. Such birds generally fly seaward for food at morning and return to land in the evening. While it can usually be assumed that land lies opposite the birds' morning flight direction, this bird spotted mid-morning (during nesting season), carried a fish in its beak. This detail suggested to Mau that the bird's morning flight was not away from land but toward it. The bird was not flying seaward to find more fish, but rather, was returning to land, to feed its young. Leading up to the voyage, an extensive, formal crew training program helped to ensure that the voyage would be as safe as possible. Escort boat Ishka followed for safety.

Hilo, Hawaiʻi Island, United States to Papeʻete, Tahiti, Society Islands,French Polynesia: 15 March 1980 to 17 April 1980

Crew: Navigator: Nainoa Thompson; Captain: Gordon Piʻianaiʻa; Chad Kalepa Baybayan, "Shorty" Bertelmann, Harry Ho, Sam Kaʻai, Michael "Buddy" McGuire, Marion Lyman-Mersereau, Mau Piailug, Steve Somsen, Joanne Kahanamoku Sterling^*, Leon Paoa Sterling, "Tava" Taupu; Patrick Koon Hung Piʻimauna Charles "Pat" Aiu, MD^* 

Papeʻete, Tahiti, French Polynesia to Honolulu, Hawaiʻi, United States: 13 May 1980 to 6 June 1980

Crew: Navigator: Nainoa Thompson; Captain: Gordon Piʻianaiʻa; Wedemeyer Au, Chad Baybayan, Bruce Blankenfeld, "Snake" Ah Hee, John Kruse, Kainoa Lee, James "Kimo" Lyman, Mau Piailug, Steven Somsen, Leon Paoa Sterling, Michael Tongg, Nathan Wong

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

I wrapped the preceding section in discussion tags. I'm not sure that is the best alternative for setting that article section apart from talk so this talk page is easier to follow. For what it's worth, I mostly like the formatting you offer here but I would support making the headings for the voyage legs less prominent than the heading for the voyage itself.

References

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Requested move 19 June 2017

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the move request was: Moved. Seems like the issues holding the previous discussions back have been resolved. (non-admin closure). Anarchyte (work | talk) 09:36, 27 June 2017 (UTC)

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Hokulea → Hōkūleʻa – Discussions here in 2008 and 2010 were based on then existing browser support limitations. The result was an consensual remark "The correct title of this article ..." at the beginning of the article. Due to full implementation of the unicode standard in all browsers these browser support limitations don't exist anymore, therefore the article could be moved to its correct title. ThT (talk) 17:12, 19 June 2017 (UTC)

• Support no reason at all to not display this correctly in title. In ictu oculi (talk) 17:42, 19 June 2017 (UTC)
• Support – Makes sense to me. As long as there are no technical hurdles, this should be fine. V2Blast (talk) 09:37, 20 June 2017 (UTC)

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The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

• Follow up: Turns out it's currently on the title blacklist. I've contacted Xaosflux to see if it can be removed. Anarchyte (work | talk) 09:41, 27 June 2017 (UTC)

@Anarchyte:  Done - I overrode the blacklist. — xaosflux ^Talk 11:03, 27 June 2017 (UTC)

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Wiki Education assignment: Anthropology 151 Culture and Humanity

This article was the subject of a Wiki Education Foundation-supported course assignment, between 10 January 2022 and 4 May 2022. Further details are available on the course page. Student editor(s): Chyaraak (article contribs).

Reality vs Romance

I was in Hawaii during the first sailing attempt and the second “successful” attempt. Reality has morphed into romance. The first attempt was poorly times and the ocean double hull sailing canoe floundered between Oahu and Maui. All trained marine safety officials tell people to stay with the boat if it is still floating. That is not what happened. Unfortunately a well known surfer believed he could paddle against the strong ocean currents and find land and then alert people of the urgent need for rescue. The other reality vs romance is the first time the double hull sailing canoe successfully made the journey, the crew mutinied. Upon arrival the captain (chief navigator?) said this was the worst crew he ever sailed with. Reality is so much harder to embrace than romance. 2601:582:8500:1060:0:0:0:B9DC (talk) 14:54, 23 January 2023 (UTC)

Thank you for your perspective, but we cannot add it to the article unless you provide verification from a reliable source. Peaceray (talk) 15:13, 23 January 2023 (UTC)