Talk:Fraye Arbeter Shtime

Wrong title: Freie Arbeiter Stimme

To editor Czar: Czar, hi, I see this is practically totally your baby. I had written already the comments here-below, but now I see I must address them specifically to you. So, what are your arguments? If we agree, and I hope we can, we should see how to do it technically, the two names are intersecting at some point and this is making a standard move impossible. I came to the article while reading the one on Sholom Schwartzbard, where the title is spelled Freie Arbeiter Stimme - of course I was skeptical and checked on it, but then I saw the photo(s). Now I feel that using the phonetical transliteration of the Yiddish ("fraye...") and going against the German spelling is a Quixotesque fight against the facts. But let's hear you out. Thank you for your work and all the best, Arminden (talk) 20:38, 22 September 2020 (UTC)

Freie Arbeiter Stimme: that's how the editors have called it. Their right. Read the title of the newspaper itself. It was launched when German spelling for Yiddish was the rule. Later developments between Jews and Germans, German vs. American English spelling of Yiddish, have no bearing. Fraye Arbeter Shtime might well be the correct transliteration of the Yiddish pronunciation or the current way to do it, but like always with names: the parents decide about it, and later the person itself. There's no "yes, but it's wrong" about that. Not just the newspaper issue from the photo here in the article, but ALL photos coming up on Google images (and there are quite a few) and on library websites, are bearing the same title: Freie Arbeiter Stimme. Unless someone can prove that it was eventually changed to Fraye Arbeter Shtime and stayed that way for longer than its time as Freie Arbeiter Stimme, calling it the way it's done now is simply counterfactual. Keep both spellings in the lead and create redirects, that goes w/o saying, but for now, based on what's available, the German spelling is the actual, factual, real one. Check the library websites: they are usually offering both, plus the Yiddish name in Hebrew letters and the English "[The] Free Voice of Labor". A specialised institution like Center for Jewish History offers the "fraye..." version as phonetical transcription of the Hebrew letters: "Fraye arbeṭer shṭime", with diacritics - see their website. Anarchism is fine & dandy, but not necessarily in Wiki's organisational matters :)) Cheers, Arminden (talk) 20:13, 22 September 2020 (UTC)

Hi @Arminden, I wrote most of the text, sure, but it's open for all to edit! Both titles are used but "Fraye Arbeter Shtime" is the version used most often in sources, i.e., the common name: most importantly in Avrich but also in all recent authors on the topic: Kenyon Zimmer, Tom Goyens, Andrew Cornell, as well as the IISH archives and among Jewish serials. It is quite possible that "Freie" is used in other regions or older sets of texts, or that it was once the official transliteration, but as far as WP policy goes, that isn't the barometer for article names. We go with the name that most searchers are most likely to use based on what is most commonplace in the sources. czar 02:37, 23 September 2020 (UTC)

P.S. I'm looking for additional sources to complete this article—all ears if you know of any I'm missing czar 04:01, 23 September 2020 (UTC)

@Czar @Arminden I asked Tony Michels once about this discrepancy. He explained that Fraye Arbeter Shtime is proper transliteration of Yiddish title, whereas Freie Arbeiter Stimme is the Daytshmerish spelling that they used on their newspaper masthead. I don't have a strong opinion of which title to use, with a slight preference for the Yiddish (YIVO) transliteration. ~ 🦝 Shushugah (he/him • talk) 00:39, 29 January 2024 (UTC)

@Shushgah and Czar: is fraye or rather freye the correct transliteration? Is it a matter of English getting mixed in (AY = ey), Yiddish dialects, or, again, Daitschmerisch? M

Sorry, me being yekke :) Arminden (talk) 12:07, 29 January 2024 (UTC)

I am not Yiddish or even German speaker, but slowly educating myself. I would separate the question of accent/pronunciation which will simply vary from speaker to speaker's background, from the formal written transliteration which is very precise/exact that even a computer could consistently output YIVO romanization of Hebrew script Yiddish. Sources consistently use Fraye. Freie is straight up German, e.g Freie Universität Berlin. Why it is not Freye...I am unsure truthfully.

All that said, even Yiddish Hebrew-script spelling varied e.g שטיממע vs שטימע (note the extra mem in end). There is also a slight difference between יי and ײ.

I am confused looking at this YIVO chart, but will trust Zimmer, Torres, Avrich's writing. Still, would be good to be more confident...and make a Yiddish grammar taskforce to include all spelling variants and with more confidence. Perhaps {{lang-yi}} could be updated to explicitly include Daytschmerish and other variants. To be investigated further... ~ 🦝 Shushugah (he/him • talk) 12:21, 29 January 2024 (UTC)